Alignment

[Jim an Apostle]

Is it any different than the fact that children should obey their parents? I mean in general children should obey their parents, but it is not absolute. If the parents are evil, or doing something morally wrong you can't fault the children for not obeying. For some reason we struggle with drawing the line in wife obey your husband, but not the children obey your parents teaching.

All authority is properly demonstrated through a proper demonstration of the parent/child relationship.

 

[andrew]

Is it any different than the fact that children should obey their parents? I mean in general children should obey their parents, but it is not absolute. If the parents are evil, or doing something morally wrong you can't fault the children for not obeying. For some reason we struggle with drawing the line in wife obey your husband, but not the children obey your parents teaching.

That's a reasonable summary of what most folks believe (most folks that believe in a husband's or a parent's authority at all, that is). Some are more zero tolerance, but most acknowledge a limit somewhere, even if we bicker about where the limit is.

 

[andrew]

All authority is properly demonstrated through a proper demonstration of the parent/child relationship.

I suppose any authority relationship properly demonstrated gives us insight into other authority relationships. In the context of this group, I have to point out that in our families, it is unlikely that a child will grow into a proper understanding of submission to parents if it isn't demonstrated every day by the wife's proper submission to her husband, so the husband/wife relationship gets most of our attention.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

This raises an interesting question: What if Eve alone had eaten? Would Adam have been held responsible? If not, why not? If Eve had eaten and Adam chose not to, then what should he have done about Eve?

In comparison with the example given by Christ, IMHO, I believe that if Adam had simply become her covering (being the advocate and accepting responsibility and punishment for her if necessary) as his role as lord of the garden would have required, God would have considered her sin covered. Instead, Adam sins with her and when God comes calling for Adam, he abdicates his role and leaves her without a covering/intermediary/advocate. Thus God rightly punishes both.

Consider the accounts of Israel in exodus. With every occasion of gross sin and ingratitude, rebellion etc. they were always under the covering of a righteous advocate/intermediary/mediator and each time God showed mercy and grace to Israel because of the mediator.
Consider the accounts of Israel in captivity. Punished for years and exiled from their land for their transgressions, when a righteous man (like Daniel and Nehemiah) steps up and accepts responsibility for the wickedness of a people, God shows incredible grace and mercy to the transgressors and through them brings restoration.
Consider even further when there is none righteous enough to make intercession before God for the sins of the people, a mediator is appointed for temporary (yearly) relief until the 2nd Adam is come. Once He came, "He who knew no sin, became sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in (under, through the covering or righteousness of) Christ.
Once this righteous Man is punished for our sin, grace and mercy are granted to all who are IN Him.

Reflecting back on the issue in the garden, though we don't have perfect knowledge of how God would have responded had Adam not eaten, due to the listed examples and others, I feel safe to say that I believe God would have perhaps punished Adam for Eve's sin, but it would not have been as severe, and He would have probably rewarded Adam for portraying and fulfilling the role of Adown.

I think there is a biblical principle shown throughout Scripture about the nature of God in regards to repentance and humility. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we try to hide it, it will be uncovered. If we repent, it will be covered and remembered no more.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

I suppose any authority relationship properly demonstrated gives us insight into other authority relationships. In the context of this group, I have to point out that in our families, it is unlikely that a child will grow into a proper understanding of submission to parents if it isn't demonstrated every day by the wife's proper submission to her husband, so the husband/wife relationship gets most of our attention.

Wouldn't it help if more wives and husbands had a better example of parent child relationship and a better example of husband wife relationship to model after?
The parent child relationship is not static but fluid depending upon the maturity being demonstrated at the time. anyone from a mother to a husband to a boss or a spiritual leader has to be conscious of this dynamic in the execution of their own responsibilities.

 

[andrew]

Of course it would help all people everywhere if they had mo bettah examples of what good relationships look like.

No relationship is static.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

This raises an interesting question: What if Eve alone had eaten? Would Adam have been held responsible? If not, why not? If Eve had eaten and Adam chose not to, then what should he have done about Eve?

As men who fell in Adam and bear the penalty for our own sin as well, we have to notice that Christ didn't kill some animals and provide some skins to cover our nakedness, he became the sacrifice and the covering. Are we supposed to be a 'living sacrifice' that pays the penalty for and covers our wives? Is our trust and obedience something we do to earn Christ's love? Or is it a response to the great love and sacrifice of our Heavenly Father and his Son, Christ Jesus? And was that a 50/50, chicken-and-egg thing, where Christ does his bit while constantly reminding us to do our bit? Or were we dead in our trespasses and sins until God gave us new life?

And are we giving life to our wives, or merely demanding obedience?...

I have thought about the original sin and fall of man situation quite a bit, over the years.

I believe that if Adam had not sinned, his responsibility for Eve would have been according to her obedience to him. I am responsible for the actions of those who are under my charge and who are in obedience to me. However, if one is in rebellion to my instruction, I cannot not be held liable for their actions. An exception would be the actions of a minor (according to their maturity). In the case of Adam and Eve, they were mature and accountable; but it was the sin of Adam, and not Eve, that was passed to mankind. If Eve had sinned against Adam's proper instruction, then Adam would not be accountable for her rebellion. Eve would die for her own sin, but Adam would live. The promise of the redeemer would have applied to her, and to any, who sinned in the future. Adam could have still had children by her, and they would have been born sinless, just as Jesus was born sinless from a sinful mother because God who was sinless was his Father. Eve would have eventually died and the race would have multiplied; and in the fullness of time, the Son of God would have been born, anyway. The problem would have been if Eve refused to dwell with Adam and not borne him children; then God would have had to have created another woman, (Adam still had more ribs)
Although in theory, if Adam had not sinned, Adam could have paid for Eve's sin. However, just being a willing sinless sacrifice was not enough. The sacrifice had to be chosen and ordained by God to be accepted by God. Jesus, the Son of God, was the one ordained from the foundation of the world to be the acceptable sacrifice; and no one else would have been accepted by God for the task, even though they met all other "requirements." The scripture says no one may take the honor of the priesthood to themselves. Jesus was the ordained one.

We cannot earn forgiveness; we do not deserve any good thing; it is all by mercy and grace. However, receiving the gift of eternal life, we have an obligation to demonstrate our appreciation and thankfulness for His unspeakable gift. We will never become a profitable servant; because, the price paid for us was greater than the value of the universe; it was the love of His dear Son. Our works show our obedience and thankfulness, but can never become the means by which we deserve anything... even after an eternity of service.
Our "living sacrifice" is our service to Him, not any ability on our part to redeem others.

 

[babe]

thanks for all the expressions above, a very interesting read.

I note the extended discussion in the book of Zechariah about the traditional idea "The fathers/parents have eaten sour grapes, so the children's teeth are set on edge." The logic there rails on about how children are not punished for the parents sin, but how we are punished for our own sins. Genesis has Adam listening to his wife, and sinning..... as she did.... and gaining the knowledge of good and evil whereas their minds were just innocent before. Of course God knew the fact, but when he came he asked why they had covered themselves with fig leaves in order to sort of logically discover the fact of their transgression.

Some say if Adam had not partaken of the forbidden fruit he would not have been able to stay with Eve, or have children by her, and sort of deduce that his actioned was a reasoned decision to break the command regarding the fruit in order to enter into mortality and start the human family.

Elsewhere in my reading of the Bible, I tend to focus on some ideas regarding how Christ made a sacrifice for us to provide us a way "Home", and a way to become like our Father by obedience to the teachings of Jesus. All in all, it seems to me that a man needs to be prepared to make some personal sacrifices in order to bring a family along with him on that path. The exhortations of Paul towards having charity, longsuffering and other virtues in ourselves go to the point of helping others to come, eventually, to the faith though not "perfect" yet.....

I don't know if anyone can make everything in the Bible logically consistent. I fear some may do so without regard for human weaknesses and turn the Gospel into some kind of ideology, a logical belief system without Christ...... It is wonderful that we need Jesus.