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NeoPatriarch said:
Takes one,...
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Well, not really; I just recognize the symbol in your avatar. I'm decidedly not an anarchist. More of a pro-life Adleribertarian (maximizing freedom within clearly-set limits). I do not believe the government should involve itself in decisions we make to engage in behaviors that do not impact others in anything other than an insignificant manner:
  • no licensing or meddling in the relationships we choose to engage in other than to intervene -- at as low a level as possible -- when parents abuse or neglect their children;
  • no taxation that punishes productivity; limit taxation to consumption taxes;
  • no regulation of drug use -- instead confront behavior that has a negative impact on others: unsafe driving, the aforementioned abuse or neglect of one's children, assault/battery, theft, disorderly conduct
  • no interference with religious beliefs or practices that do not violate the rights of others
  • no health fascism, whether that come in the form of nutrition dictates, exercise mandates or government intervention in the medical fields, including forced purchase of health insurance -- not to mention large government favoritism toward particular branches of medicine
I don't know if this describes you or not, but, strictly speaking, anarchism is the logical extreme of libertarianism, because its adherents tend to demand the right to do whatever they want no matter how it might affect others or what the cost will be to others to provide anarchists with the illusion that they don't need a healthy-host stable society to be parasites of.
 
Bartato said:
Regarding the CCP, I tend to think our Kiwi friends should be particularly concerned about China (of course Australians, Canadians, Koreans, Japanese, and Americans should be concerned as well).

New Zealand has resources, a relatively small population, and lacks a serious military. Should the USA not be able to protect NZ, it would be extremely vulnerable. We all know the USA is in serious decline.

The whole Western world has become incredibly soft and indulgent since WW2. I realize the small population of NZ limits its military capacity, but the country should at least put serious effort into it's defense.

Finland did quite well during the winter war despite their low population. Switzerland likewise has a similar population to NZ, but takes security more seriously.

The isolated location and mountainous terrain of NZ would make it hard to invade, if the Kiwis took defense seriously.
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Agreed. Our Defence Force sucks. It needs a massive overhaul.

However, China is not going to come in by force with their military and take over. It's far more subversive than that, and it's already happening.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Agreed. Our Defence Force sucks. It needs a massive overhaul.

However, China is not going to come in by force with their military and take over. It's far more subversive than that, and it's already happening.
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FollowingHim2,
I think you are largely right. Cultural and political subversion, combined with economic domination, are probably greater threats than direct military action.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Agreed. Our Defence Force sucks. It needs a massive overhaul.

However, China is not going to come in by force with their military and take over. It's far more subversive than that, and it's already happening.
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And the socialist government a few years back opened the door to welcome in the Muslims so we have the communists and Muslims molding the national identity. Having taken away the right to free speech and the right to have firearms NZ is a very easy target to take over. Welcome to clean green NZ. :eek::oops:
 
I don't trust too many things on the net. Used to have Yahoo Messenger and then had someone find me through it so I dumped it. Never had Facebook and I briefly had MySpace before dumping it.
 
Bartato said:
Regarding the CCP, I tend to think our Kiwi friends should be particularly concerned about China (of course Australians, Canadians, Koreans, Japanese, and Americans should be concerned as well).

New Zealand has resources, a relatively small population, and lacks a serious military. Should the USA not be able to protect NZ, it would be extremely vulnerable. We all know the USA is in serious decline.

The whole Western world has become incredibly soft and indulgent since WW2. I realize the small population of NZ limits its military capacity, but the country should at least put serious effort into it's defense.

Finland did quite well during the winter war despite their low population. Switzerland likewise has a similar population to NZ, but takes security more seriously.

The isolated location and mountainous terrain of NZ would make it hard to invade, if the Kiwis took defense seriously.
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You are very correct, and our government is going in the exact wrong direction right now. We have a foolish and incompetent government at present, that is sucking up to China and distancing itself from our Western partners. But that's also been going on for decades, successive governments have done different things to drive wedges between NZ and both the USA and Australia. Your assessment of NZ's vulnerability is very accurate.

In fact, it's so well understood that this was I believe the winning entry to an Australian advertising competition a decade ago. The style and terminology of the ad is based directly on how the New Zealand government tourism promotion agency promotes NZ as a tourism destination in advertising globally:
The only thing NZ has going for it in terms of defence is a large number of experienced and well-armed hunters who could quickly form a highly effective militia force that would make life very difficult for any invader. But with gun law changes in recent years they are being both disarmed and made less likely to actually want to cooperate with the government, and the government is making themselves less likely to be able to call on them for assistance without losing face. The gun confiscations that have occurred here, and are ongoing, constitute the disarming fo the home guard. The last line of defence is falling apart.

And when that's gone anyone could just walk in.
 
FollowingHim said:
The only thing NZ has going for it in terms of defence is a large number of experienced and well-armed hunters who could quickly form a highly effective militia force that would make life very difficult for any invader. But with gun law changes in recent years they are being both disarmed and made less likely to actually want to cooperate with the government, and the government is making themselves less likely to be able to call on them for assistance without losing face. The gun confiscations that have occurred here, and are ongoing, constitute the disarming fo the home guard. The last line of defence is falling apart.

And when that's gone anyone could just walk in.
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Maybe that's what your government wants.
 
MeganC said:
Maybe that's what your government wants.
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Wouldn't surprise me.

Our current government are a bunch of communists. And that's not hyperbole, they're actual communists. Our prime minister was formerly president of the International Young Socialist League. Here's a speech of hers from a decade ago in full communist mode - uses the word "comrades" about 15 times in 8 minutes.

They were elected on a promise to fight covid, with basically no other policies at all. Since coming in with a massive majority they've been using that majority to seize power and radically change the country in completely unprecedented ways which they have no election mandate for at all, as they never disclosed these intentions prior to the election. NZ is spiralling downhill at a very rapid pace, we're actually in greater danger of losing everything at present than the USA is, which is saying something given the state of things for you all.

The problem is getting people to wake up and see this is actually a real threat. It's so big it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory. If only it was...

Having said all that, I actually have no problem with a careful and strategic move towards China, if it were done correctly.

I have long thought that the best role for NZ to take in any future conflict between the USA and China would be the role Switzerland had in WW2 - full neutrality backed by military defence capability. New Zealand is the "bug-out location" for the elite from BOTH the USA and China. Neither country's leadership is going to want to have a war here, as it would endanger members of their own families and friends families. We're also geographically isolated and a nuisance to get to, offering little strategic advantage in war either as we're the end of the long South-East Asian island chain not a stepping stone to anywhere else. Massive food production capacity, so invaluable as a supply base for a war or peacetime economy - but if you can just buy that produce without having to fight for it that's even easier.

I think NZ should be boosting our military but focussing on insurgent capability - being prepared to, in the event of war, rapidly train and arm a massive insurgent force that would make invasion too expensive for any invader to bother with. Stockpile weaponry for such a force and prepare the existing military to act as trainers and officers. We've got the experience now as our elite troops have spent years in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Then position NZ as the neutral ground for all negotiations. Allow both sides in any conflict to operate permanent diplomatic missions here. Make facilities available for secure face-to-face negotiations, prisoner exchanges, and so forth. Quietly promote the place as a safe place for rich people with connections to send their children for the duration of hostilities. Set up a banking sector that will facilitate completely private no-questions-asked storage and transfers of funds. And keep our massive agricultural sector booming - selling food to both sides, with special humanitarian shipments to either side in the case of particular need. Make the country so valuable to both that neither wants to invade - and so valuable to whoever wins the conflict that we'd receive favourable treatment regardless of the outcome.

Because our military is too small to actually help the USA defeat China. Allying in such a conflict would be a pointless token gesture. But we could assist the cause of peace.
 
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FollowingHim said:
Wouldn't surprise me.

Our current government are a bunch of communists. And that's not hyperbole, they're actual communists. Our prime minister was formerly president of the International Young Socialist League. Here's a speech of hers from a decade ago in full communist mode - uses the word "comrades" about 15 times in 8 minutes.

They were elected on a promise to fight covid, with basically no other policies at all. Since coming in with a massive majority they've been using that majority to seize power and radically change the country in completely unprecedented ways which they have no election mandate for at all, as they never disclosed these intentions prior to the election. NZ is spiralling downhill at a very rapid pace, we're actually in greater danger of losing everything at present than the USA is, which is saying something given the state of things for you all.

The problem is getting people to wake up and see this is actually a real threat. It's so big it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory. If only it was...

Having said all that, I actually have no problem with a careful and strategic move towards China, if it were done correctly.

I have long thought that the best role for NZ to take in any future conflict between the USA and China would be the role Switzerland had in WW2 - full neutrality backed by military defence capability. New Zealand is the "bug-out location" for the elite from BOTH the USA and China. Neither country's leadership is going to want to have a war here, as it would endanger members of their own families and friends families. We're also geographically isolated and a nuisance to get to, offering little strategic advantage in war either as we're the end of the long South-East Asian island chain not a stepping stone to anywhere else. Massive food production capacity, so invaluable as a supply base for a war or peacetime economy - but if you can just buy that produce without having to fight for it that's even easier.

I think NZ should be boosting our military but focussing on insurgent capability - being prepared to, in the event of war, rapidly train and arm a massive insurgent force that would make invasion too expensive for any invader to bother with. Stockpile weaponry for such a force and prepare the existing military to act as trainers and officers. We've got the experience now as our elite troops have spent years in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Then position NZ as the neutral ground for all negotiations. Allow both sides in any conflict to operate permanent diplomatic missions here. Make facilities available for secure face-to-face negotiations, prisoner exchanges, and so forth. Quietly promote the place as a safe place for rich people with connections to send their children for the duration of hostilities. Set up a banking sector that will facilitate completely private no-questions-asked storage and transfers of funds. And keep our massive agricultural sector booming - selling food to both sides, with special humanitarian shipments to either side in the case of particular need. Make the country so valuable to both that neither wants to invade - and so valuable to whoever wins the conflict that we'd receive favourable treatment regardless of the outcome.

Because our military is too small to actually help the USA defeat China. Allying in such a conflict would be a pointless token gesture. But we could assist the cause of peace.
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I think you are altogether correct. New Zealand should aim to be neutral but well armed. A large, trained, and well equipped militia is cost effective, and would help deter possible hostilities.

Then again, if you are a communist or even a socialist, the last thing you want is a large, trained, and equipped militia.
 
Big Tech is big government. Google and Facebook were both intelligence agency created and/or funded for the purpose of surveillance and control of our population by the hostile elites.

FollowingHim said:
New Zealand is the "bug-out location" for the elite from BOTH the USA and China
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That should tell you something. The rise of China was entirely shepherded by the elites in the US.
 
FollowingHim said:
Wouldn't surprise me.

Our current government are a bunch of communists. And that's not hyperbole, they're actual communists. Our prime minister was formerly president of the International Young Socialist League. Here's a speech of hers from a decade ago in full communist mode - uses the word "comrades" about 15 times in 8 minutes.

They were elected on a promise to fight covid, with basically no other policies at all. Since coming in with a massive majority they've been using that majority to seize power and radically change the country in completely unprecedented ways which they have no election mandate for at all, as they never disclosed these intentions prior to the election. NZ is spiralling downhill at a very rapid pace, we're actually in greater danger of losing everything at present than the USA is, which is saying something given the state of things for you all.

The problem is getting people to wake up and see this is actually a real threat. It's so big it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory. If only it was...

Having said all that, I actually have no problem with a careful and strategic move towards China, if it were done correctly.

I have long thought that the best role for NZ to take in any future conflict between the USA and China would be the role Switzerland had in WW2 - full neutrality backed by military defence capability. New Zealand is the "bug-out location" for the elite from BOTH the USA and China. Neither country's leadership is going to want to have a war here, as it would endanger members of their own families and friends families. We're also geographically isolated and a nuisance to get to, offering little strategic advantage in war either as we're the end of the long South-East Asian island chain not a stepping stone to anywhere else. Massive food production capacity, so invaluable as a supply base for a war or peacetime economy - but if you can just buy that produce without having to fight for it that's even easier.

I think NZ should be boosting our military but focussing on insurgent capability - being prepared to, in the event of war, rapidly train and arm a massive insurgent force that would make invasion too expensive for any invader to bother with. Stockpile weaponry for such a force and prepare the existing military to act as trainers and officers. We've got the experience now as our elite troops have spent years in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Then position NZ as the neutral ground for all negotiations. Allow both sides in any conflict to operate permanent diplomatic missions here. Make facilities available for secure face-to-face negotiations, prisoner exchanges, and so forth. Quietly promote the place as a safe place for rich people with connections to send their children for the duration of hostilities. Set up a banking sector that will facilitate completely private no-questions-asked storage and transfers of funds. And keep our massive agricultural sector booming - selling food to both sides, with special humanitarian shipments to either side in the case of particular need. Make the country so valuable to both that neither wants to invade - and so valuable to whoever wins the conflict that we'd receive favourable treatment regardless of the outcome.

Because our military is too small to actually help the USA defeat China. Allying in such a conflict would be a pointless token gesture. But we could assist the cause of peace.
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America is on its last legs on the world stage. We have neither the stomach nor the will power anymore. The coming financial collapse will take both us and China off the table. Possibly before we both experience humiliating military defeats but maybe not.

I do believe there will be a major reshuffling of the world order soon. Whole nations will continue to disappear and new ones emerge. Balkanization is going global!

And America’s fall is going to be spectacular. Spectacular and fast. We will go to bed one night the masters of the world and the next night we will be brought very low.
 
rockfox said:
The US I get, that is beyond obvious, but why do you think it will take China off the table?
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One of my best friends is from Singapore, and he shares with me the newspapers of the Chinese diaspora (those who now live outside of China) who are willing to provide accurate critical information about what is going on inside China from their clandestine contacts (many of these are distributed in joint Chinese/English language editions): they are nearly unanimous in their conclusion that China is on the verge of a collapse from within that will dwarf what @The Revolting Man is predicting for America. They are successfully subverting America as all this goes on, but they're making some similar mistakes as did the Soviet Union along the lines of overextension and entirely ignoring outside disapproval, but all this is exacerbated by their longstanding one-child policy, which led to mass abortion of female babies and an overabundance of men to the point that, even with the implementation of government-sanctioned prostitution, most men have no possibility of getting laid much less getting married. China is also building fake huge city after fake huge city, selling them as great investments that mostly end up as high-rise ghost towns. None of this is sustainable. And the entire upper strata of their society is doing everything it can to escape with its wealth to Western countries.
 
That could be. IDK. There is a lot of indication of China becoming a major force. I wouldn't underestimate them, esp. with the way they've defeated America without firing a shot.

The US went through the Great Depression right before our rise to sole superpower; I don't think economic over-extension alone will do them in.
 
I guess you could close it on TikTok . . .
 
NeoPatriarch said:
Can I close this thread now that it has totally gone off the rails?
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You did manage to get an interesting discussion going once the original question was answered.
 
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