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Being Shunned, AND LIKING IT.

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rejoicinghandmaid said:
I seriously doubt any of the others had the intense, multiple personal and familial ties of 20+ years that we had with the pastor.
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Just to add a supporting account: the church we had to leave is one I attended as a child, where I had longstanding personal connections with most members, and with which members of my family have been associated for generations. Didn't make a difference to the outcome, just made it more upsetting.
 
rejoicinghandmaid said:
Ahhh--so you're saying the reason the pastors, men, deacons, etc. won't embrace polygny is because they fear how their women will respond if they do?!? Hmmm, well I guess there might be some truth to that. I can tell you that for sure "tradition" certainly plays into their view of "righteousness" and they feel it is their God-given duty to uphold "tradition" the way they've been taught it in cemetery (as VV76 calls it). I can also tell you that for almost every pastor that has given the left boot of fellowship, it's not been because of their wife, but because they desired the applause of men--those in their flock, other pastors in their fellowship. They feared losing their position in a denominational hierarchy. They feared losing their handsome bankroll and the realestate they'd acquired in the building of their "kingdom". Their identity was tied up in all of this and made them who they had become in the eyes of this present world. They chose fame and fortune over truth and walking in the light. There's no doubt they may have shied away from having to lead their wife into this truth, but for most pastors, she and their family are already at the bottom of the totem pole! Their success and building of the brick and mortar kingdom had long ago taken center stage and everything else pivots around that hub of kingdom building!
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While much of this may be true for many pastors, another factor that I believe @Asforme&myhouse may be referring to is that most if not all of these pastors are married to a woman that would come unglued at the thought of her husband supporting this. He fears her response more than the hierarchy because he knows deep down that his relationship would never survive even the thought or discussion of poly. He doesnt dare publicly support or even defend the idea whether its from the pulpit or in private?

Perhaps this also goes back to the thread on whether a bishop or deacon can Biblically be the husband of more than one wife. Some may use this example as a reason why a bishop can only be married to one (that the wife would implode over the thought of it) IMO if the bishop has a wife that couldn’t handle poly, its also an indictment against him as a husband for multiple reasons and would provide several reasons for disqualification in my mind for the position. OTOH, a bishop’s wife that has worked through the mental growth that this life demands would be uniquely positioned to help those wives in the assembly learn to love, submit, support and encourage their husbands to follow Christ as he leads in any arena.
 
I've got to jump in here and say, Whoaaaaaaa!!! Hey guys, not all those who serve the flock as shepherds are spineless crowd pleasing money-grabbers. I'll put my hand up for those men in leadership who have come to understand the truth of biblical marriage, stood up for the authority of holy scripture and got the left boot of fellowship as fast as the rest of you. There are men (ok, it's experience I'm drawing from and not statistics) that diligently study God's Word, preach it and who also seek to live it out. But you are all absolutely right; we lose everything for doing just that and the consequences are beyond what anyone would imagine until you've dont it. It's only after you actually stand up and say, "Hey, did you know that polygyny is just as legitimate as monogamy in the Bible?" that you come face to face with the realization that things are NOT going to go well with that church group you have loved and labored so faithfully for. So please keep praying for those men who are learning the truth; pray for their steadfastness of faith to stand in the blitzkrieg that will erupt, and pray for their families because it will cost those men their families. Shalom and blessings to you all. :bible:
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
While much of this may be true for many pastors, another factor that I believe @Asforme&myhouse may be referring to is that most if not all of these pastors are married to a woman that would come unglued at the thought of her husband supporting this. He fears her response more than the hierarchy because he knows deep down that his relationship would never survive even the thought or discussion of poly. He doesnt dare publicly support or even defend the idea whether its from the pulpit or in private?

Perhaps this also goes back to the thread on whether a bishop or deacon can Biblically be the husband of more than one wife. Some may use this example as a reason why a bishop can only be married to one (that the wife would implode over the thought of it) IMO if the bishop has a wife that couldn’t handle poly, its also an indictment against him as a husband for multiple reasons and would provide several reasons for disqualification in my mind for the position. OTOH, a bishop’s wife that has worked through the mental growth that this life demands would be uniquely positioned to help those wives in the assembly learn to love, submit, support and encourage their husbands to follow Christ as he leads in any arena.
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Yes, absolutely. All the women in the church would go ballistic (including his wife, daughtes, mother, MOTHER-IN-LAW, grandmother, great grandmother, aunts etc. etc.). Christian women in the US haven’t been taught true biblical submission for generations now, and they would snap in unison. They fear women more than they fear God.
 
rejoicinghandmaid said:
Ahhh--so you're saying the reason the pastors, men, deacons, etc. won't embrace polygny is because they fear how their women will respond if they do?!? Hmmm, well I guess there might be some truth to that. I can tell you that for sure "tradition" certainly plays into their view of "righteousness" and they feel it is their God-given duty to uphold "tradition" the way they've been taught it in cemetery (as VV76 calls it). I can also tell you that for almost every pastor that has given the left boot of fellowship, it's not been because of their wife, but because they desired the applause of men--those in their flock, other pastors in their fellowship. They feared losing their position in a denominational hierarchy. They feared losing their handsome bankroll and the realestate they'd acquired in the building of their "kingdom". Their identity was tied up in all of this and made them who they had become in the eyes of this present world. They chose fame and fortune over truth and walking in the light. There's no doubt they may have shied away from having to lead their wife into this truth, but for most pastors, she and their family are already at the bottom of the totem pole! Their success and building of the brick and mortar kingdom had long ago taken center stage and everything else pivots around that hub of kingdom building!
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I agree that their number one reason for not teaching the truth is knowing they will lose all of what they have built and their reputation (much of which is built on sand) and i am saying that the reason they would lose it is because of how women would react.

I think if, heaven forbid, all women were to magically vanish from the world (that would be an awful place to live, but let’s pretend) the biblical truth of plural marriage would be universally accepted with nothing more than a basic bible study on the topic. Men are afraid of their women, other men’s women, and women who have no man. I think when you boil it all down, men fear women and how they will react on this topic.
 
rejoicinghandmaid said:
I can also tell you that for almost every pastor that has given the left boot of fellowship, it's not been because of their wife, but because they desired the applause of men--those in their flock, other pastors in their fellowship. They feared losing their position in a denominational hierarchy. They feared losing their handsome bankroll and the realestate they'd acquired in the building of their "kingdom". Their identity was tied up in all of this and made them who they had become in the eyes of this present world. They chose fame and fortune over truth and walking in the light. There's no doubt they may have shied away from having to lead their wife into this truth, but for most pastors, she and their family are already at the bottom of the totem pole! Their success and building of the brick and mortar kingdom had long ago taken center stage and everything else pivots around that hub of kingdom building!
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No it's not the men. Women hold the power in most congregations, even though they'll often operate it through their husbands. Most Christian women control the pocket book, control their husbands, control the children, etc. It is all those things you mention, but crossing the women of the congregation is what threatens those. Since they execute power indirectly it can be hard to see. Women will often deny it till they're blue in the face, especially in traditional, fundie, or Complementarian churches. But we have eyes to see.

frederick said:
Hey guys, not all those who serve the flock as shepherds are spineless crowd pleasing money-grabbers
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Agreed. Not all, only 99.999% of them. Many may not seem like it, but when push comes to shove money talks. Oh, they may couch it in terms of 'reaching the lost'. But for some reason appealing to the lost always requires shunning Christians attempting to be righteous.
 
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rockfox said:
There is something important going on here. While this is just one experience, everyone else's I've read here is pretty similar.

I've experienced a lot of hate and rejection from the church over my rejection of feminism but it is usually much slower to build. The ferocity here is remarkable.

If you said, "I'm having doubts that God really exists." Would you get the same response? Or would they try and study with you and help you like a struggling believer.

I'm really curious what is going on here. I struggle to come up with a parallel.

Maybe if you sacrificed a goat to Satan during the Lord's supper you'd get the same reaction.
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Aside from the reasons we've discussed already, which are good, I stumbled across another explanation: the churches have become people of the lie... (0 - 3:30 min)


Ran across this video and although his subject is completely unrelated to this subject, his first 2.5 to 3.5 minutes were spot on in describing the mindset that may be behind this. Its a brilliant description of what happens when people embrace a lie.

This also leads me to a possible explanation of the why of the reaction. The push back against homosexual marriage by the church caused them to identify with one man and one woman only. In reaction to one lie, they absorbed another and made it a core part of their identity. On top of that you have their revulsion at the thought of anything that causes women feel-bads and their steadfast defense of women's efforts to subtly rule their marriages; two things that polygamy overthrows.

The embrace of lies about women are wrapped up in there somewhere too. But I didn't live through those changes in the church (likely around the 60's when headcoverings were dropped) so I can't put my finger on how that played out.

This is why I said elsewhere you can't lead with polygamy, you have to strike at the root of the problem. If they think causing women feel-bads is mortal sin, you'll never get them to even consider polygamy as it is de facto sin by that measure alone.
 
rockfox said:
Aside from the reasons we've discussed already, which are good, I stumbled across another explanation: the churches have become people of the lie... (0 - 3:30 min)


Ran across this video and although his subject is completely unrelated to this subject, his first 2.5 to 3.5 minutes were spot on in describing the mindset that may be behind this. Its a brilliant description of what happens when people embrace a lie.

This also leads me to a possible explanation of the why of the reaction. The push back against homosexual marriage by the church caused them to identify with one man and one woman only. In reaction to one lie, they absorbed another and made it a core part of their identity. On top of that you have their revulsion at the thought of anything that causes women feel-bads and their steadfast defense of women's efforts to subtly rule their marriages; two things that polygamy overthrows.

The embrace of lies about women are wrapped up in there somewhere too. But I didn't live through those changes in the church (likely around the 60's when headcoverings were dropped) so I can't put my finger on how that played out.

This is why I said elsewhere you can't lead with polygamy, you have to strike at the root of the problem. If they think causing women feel-bads is mortal sin, you'll never get them to even consider polygamy as it is de facto sin by that measure alone.
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Wow! Spot on!
 
frederick said:
I've got to jump in here and say, Whoaaaaaaa!!! Hey guys, not all those who serve the flock as shepherds are spineless crowd pleasing money-grabbers. I'll put my hand up for those men in leadership who have come to understand the truth of biblical marriage, stood up for the authority of holy scripture and got the left boot of fellowship as fast as the rest of you. There are men (ok, it's experience I'm drawing from and not statistics) that diligently study God's Word, preach it and who also seek to live it out. But you are all absolutely right; we lose everything for doing just that and the consequences are beyond what anyone would imagine until you've dont it. It's only after you actually stand up and say, "Hey, did you know that polygyny is just as legitimate as monogamy in the Bible?" that you come face to face with the realization that things are NOT going to go well with that church group you have loved and labored so faithfully for. So please keep praying for those men who are learning the truth; pray for their steadfastness of faith to stand in the blitzkrieg that will erupt, and pray for their families because it will cost those men their families. Shalom and blessings to you all. :bible:
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Point taken and well made, Frederick. In fact, Ancient Paths shared at retreat in his testimony this exact scenario you've just presented. So my humble apologies for doing what I scafe under when others do it--lump everyone together under a blanket statement. Thank you for bringing this forward. There were others at retreat who mentioned knowledge of pastors that lost everything they'd worked to shepherd when they stood on the truth of Biblical families. These are men as you said that have also been given the left boot of fellowship. I guess my comments were directed towards the pastors who've been given the truth but then boot out the ones giving the truth. Hope that clarifies my comments.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Yes, absolutely. All the women in the church would go ballistic (including his wife, daughtes, mother, MOTHER-IN-LAW, grandmother, great grandmother, aunts etc. etc.). Christian women in the US haven’t been taught true biblical submission for generations now, and they would snap in unison. They fear women more than they fear God.
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If I could expand your comment, there are men who fear men, men who fear women, women who fear women, and women who fear men. Common denominator=fear of humans rather than fear of God--meaning the lack of desire to please the only One Who gave His very life that we might have freedom from fear!
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I agree that their number one reason for not teaching the truth is knowing they will lose all of what they have built and their reputation (much of which is built on sand) and i am saying that the reason they would lose it is because of how women would react.

I think if, heaven forbid, all women were to magically vanish from the world (that would be an awful place to live, but let’s pretend) the biblical truth of plural marriage would be universally accepted with nothing more than a basic bible study on the topic. Men are afraid of their women, other men’s women, and women who have no man. I think when you boil it all down, men fear women and how they will react on this topic.
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For sure I can't pretend to know how men think. Sometimes their actions give inklings as to their thoughts. At other times their actions mask their thoughts. Yet other times there is no mistaking what their thoughts are because their actions speak louder than do their words. I do appreciate your willingness to try to explain from a male vantage point. Communication is how one learns. It's one of the biggest deficits in community on either side of the fence--male/female, believer/unbeliever, poly/mono. So not to derail this thread, I'll yield this discussion which may surface later on another thread.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I think if, heaven forbid, all women were to magically vanish from the world (that would be an awful place to live, but let’s pretend) the biblical truth of plural marriage would be universally accepted with nothing more than a basic bible study on the topic.
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Haha. That is funny to think about, but I think you are probably right. :)
 
Don't discount the pastoral fear of their peers. To accept this doctrine, even in "independent" churches would mean shunning and being outcast from their social network. It's not very appealing to a bunch of men who often have little social understanding or support of their vocation.
 
Re the first couple of minutes of the video: Another plug for gaining a basic understanding of Terror Management Theory, which goes a long way toward explaining the irrational fear and opposition described in the vid.
 
Mojo said:
Don't discount the pastoral fear of their peers. To accept this doctrine, even in "independent" churches would mean shunning and being outcast from their social network. It's not very appealing to a bunch of men who often have little social understanding or support of their vocation.
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To expound on this, the only friends many pastors have are other pastors. To their congregates they can't let the mask slip ever, can't ever be vulnerable, can't be wrong or succumb to temptation; lest it be used against them. And like leaders/managers in other disciplines, they tend to want to congregate with others of like status. Status. Approval of men. Cares of the world.
 
rockfox said:
To expound on this, the only friends many pastors have are other pastors. To their congregates they can't let the mask slip ever, can't ever be vulnerable, can't be wrong or succumb to temptation; lest it be used against them. And like leaders/managers in other disciplines, they tend to want to congregate with others of like status. Status. Approval of men. Cares of the world.
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I agree with what you are saying, but I wasn't necessarily making my comment out to be a negative aspersion about these men. Why are we all here? We have found a community of similar minded, independent thinkers. We may not always agree, but it feels good to belong to a group, and that's not a bad thing!
 
Mojo said:
I agree with what you are saying, but I wasn't necessarily making my comment out to be a negative aspersion about these men. Why are we all here? We have found a community of similar minded, independent thinkers. We may not always agree, but it feels good to belong to a group, and that's not a bad thing!
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I'm as much sympathetic as critical of the situation. It is the churchian system and politicking by congregates that leads to the situation. But I'm also realistic that they choose to be a part of that and are the enforcers of the system.
 
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