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Circumcision

Tlaloc said:
The standard medical circumcision around here is 'mid cut' where about 50-60% of the glans is exposed depending on its state. A 'tall cut' is usually around 40% exposed, which is not too far off the Milah in that picture.
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This is very interesting, and is very different to my experience here, which helps to explain our differing attitudes on this issue. Your point earlier of "know your surgery" is very relevant. Unfortunately few couples receive much information on this, and very few would know there were different types of circumcision available at all. Hopefully anybody reading this thread is encouraged to find out about what is done locally before making their decision on this issue.
 
It could well be part of the reason for our different perspectives. There are at least three standards for circumcision, if you've got a good case against the full model I'm all ears. Like I said, its not normal around here and it's a fairly extreme cut.

I agree that more knowledge is better with this, but its very hard to find decent well rounded information on it. Information is also all to often not given by the physicians preforming the surgery, as they just like to do it their way.

I wouldn't mind giving any future boys of mine the taller more Milhah type cut if the option was there, but I've got no problems with my mid cut nor do my boys have any with theirs. My wife is far more passionate about the topic than I am, her cousin had to get a circumcision in his teen years due to an infection that he couldn't have had if he were cut and easier to clean.
 
Where can I get my heart circumcised on the 8th day?
Can an airplane complete a long heavy journey with landing gear down?
In the beginnings of the journey we needed that landing gear, actually could not take off without it.
Now after transition, the old gear drag will cause you to run out of fuel and splat on the sea not making the journey.
I see this is an issue with religion. We add burdens to our lives that are not necessarily profitable or efficient.

8Th day is symbolic of new beginnings, cutting of, getting rid of stumbling blocks in the heart. Then our creator introduces a better covenant, a spiritual dynamic covenant that superscedes the old ritual external school master.

I have talked with many old school people who swear by that. The physical pipi symbol ritual won't help you be born again at all, no more than putting a 666 symbol on a flag while calling ourselves chosen god people. The phisical rehersal ship sailed already. After Christ we are concerned with spiritual things.
What I have seen now with the old external rituals, they sort of become a stumbling block because, somehow its used by people thinking they are more holy and obedient. Its not healthy relying on token mechanical symbols or rituals for salvation at any level today.
Today that flesh cutting is more a secular tradition, an echo of the old covenant symbol that was needed before Christ and the new better spiritual revealing covenant He inagurated.
If cutting at the phisical member was profitable for salvation, it would be way better to totally cut it off like some pious religious guys do. Haha Lol
Imagine, sitting down always and no more sprinkles on the potty to annoy our mates.
No more jealous lady troubles either and better concentration on other important dogmas? Lol
I know some won't agree because its hard to give up comfort traditions passed down for generations. I have my own issues too and hope are being cleansed in time.
I believe you can choose to self cut when you are old enough to. By choice is better right?
Some kids end up mutilated today because of parents following the social norms.
Today, it makes as much sense as having eye lids removed to see life more clearly into the next life.
For hygiene, its just better not to be promiscuous.
Now what about female circumsition? We are supposed to be equal today.. Can our parents choose that? I hope not..
I do agree there are many rich concepts and advice in the scrptures, many are relevant today.
Kosher was great advice when it was given, today many things kosher are not necessarily healthy. Many still get horrible health while getting that false sense of food security.
We have many little processed foods that are bad and still considered kosher.
We need to think bigger, relevant to our time, examine modern threats and choose accordingly asking our creator for discernment, with a open sincere heart. Healthy and kosher is better.
When kosher was taught, we didn't have GMOs, cheap sugar or so many things to hurt us.
We must adapt and hear the holy spirit.
Not just ride and take sharp turns with old training wheels in place.
 
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I
cubanito said:
Where can I get my heart circumcised on the 8th day?
Can an airplane complete a long heavy journey with landing gear down?
In the beginnings of the journey we needed that landing gear, actually could not take off without it.
Now after transition, the old gear drag will cause you to run out of fuel and splat on the sea not making the journey.
I see this is an issue with religion. We add burdens to our lives that are not necessarily profitable or efficient.

8Th day is symbolic of new beginnings, cutting of, getting rid of stumbling blocks in the heart. Then our creator introduces a better covenant, a spiritual dynamic covenant that superscedes the old ritual external school master.

I have talked with many old school people who swear by that. The physical pipi symbol ritual won't help you be born again at all, no more than putting a 666 symbol on a flag while calling ourselves chosen god people. The phisical rehersal ship sailed already. After Christ we are concerned with spiritual things.
What I have seen now with the old external rituals, they sort of become a stumbling block because, somehow its used by people thinking they are more holy and obedient. Its not healthy relying on token mechanical symbols or rituals for salvation at any level today.
Today that flesh cutting is more a secular tradition, an echo of the old covenant symbol that was needed before Christ and the new better spiritual revealing covenant He inagurated.
If cutting at the phisical member was profitable for salvation, it would be way better to totally cut it off like some pious religious guys do. Haha Lol
Imagine, sitting down always and no more sprinkles on the potty to annoy our mates.
No more jealous lady troubles either and better concentration on other important dogmas? Lol
I know some won't agree because its hard to give up comfort traditions passed down for generations. I have my own issues too and hope are being cleansed in time.
I believe you can choose to self cut when you are old enough to. By choice is better right?
Some kids end up mutilated today because of parents following the social norms.
Today, it makes as much sense as having eye lids removed to see life more clearly into the next life.
For hygiene, its just better not to be promiscuous.
Now what about female circumsition? We are supposed to be equal today.. Can our parents choose that? I hope not..
I do agree there are many rich concepts and advice in the scrptures, many are relevant today.
Kosher was great advice when it was given, today many things kosher are not necessarily healthy. Many still get horrible health while getting that false sense of food security.
We have many little processed foods that are bad and still considered kosher.
We need to think bigger, relevant to our time, examine modern threats and choose accordingly asking our creator for discernment, with a open sincere heart. Healthy and kosher is better.
When kosher was taught, we didn't have GMOs, cheap sugar or so many things to hurt us.
We must adapt and hear the holy spirit.
Not just ride and take sharp turns with old training wheels in place.
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I've had all of sons circumcised . God's Word does not pass away. There might not be any spiritual compulsion anymore but there will still be an advantage to trying to conform to God's Word.
 
I read this article recently, and thought of this thread.
Thanks to Cubanito bumping it into active status, I didn't have to search for it. :-)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3?timestamp=1484242698611

It was my husband's circumcised heart that made him the most attractive man I had ever met, and since that is a mark of the renewed covenant, and YHWH wrote his law in their hearts, and gave them His spirit without them being clipped, it is hard to imagine Him requiring it of others in this same age.

While individual experience may vary, and if you are the 1% your reality will be different from the other 99%, observations of our boys and my extended family members confirm the statistics cited in this article.

Since it can be done later, is hard to reverse, AND there is that slight risk of a goof on the doctor's part, that sometimes forces a so called sex change (unichs are just not fashionable these days) to me the risks outweigh the imagined benefits. And one more thing I just have to point out. You only know the result of the choice you make, (or rather your parents made FOR? you??) so you cannot compare, or even be objective, unless you were clipped as an adult.

And of course it is still a matter of personal choice/conviction, and if you feel your maker wants ANYTHING from you, that is what you should do!
 
I totally agree is now a personal choice. This mentioned may be the reason doctors push it today.
"Amputation of healthy infant foreskins constitutes the single most common surgical procedure in the United States ― a several hundred million dollars a year industry."

Reverse is too risky anyways, way more cutting. On mom that was about to die with cancer, they pushed a horrible botched expensive surgery too knowing it was unethical but very profitable. Same doc told me 86% of hospital income is from cancer and does not see any cure coming just for that reason. Told me people are naive.
 
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God does not change, he reveals us deeper things as we grow in him. Circumsition is more than just skin deep now, goes all the way deep in our hearts. Trying do do that in the physical would probably mean death.
Some doctors in the future might want to try it to make a little extra profit knowing is not needed. Lol
Something important the way He sees things.
The spiritual is the substance, the phisical is the shadow. He turned the world upside down from our physical perspective.
God does not change nor his word, is very true, he builds marvelously upon it.
 
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And yet the spiritual and the physical are linked. You can't have one without the other, at least not in this life.

I don't want to debate this, especially right now, but there are some issues to keep in mind here. God did command this at one time and He never expressly rescinded that command. So we know for sure that it is not harmful or negative. In fact the best the anti-circumcision side can come up with is that the two states are equal based on Paul.

While I would never claim its required I do believe it is beneficial and of course you're not supposed to celebrate Passover unless you've been circumcised.
 
Tlaloc said:
Anyway, we (as a culture) do circumcision because of the puritans. Some segments of puritanism called for a return to the Law in many areas, and where occasionally burned or gaoled for it (Christians REALLY hate those that love the Law). This is the 1650's.

This started about 100 years before Simon-Andre Tissot wrote his works on the 'evils of masturbation' and promoted the rather extreme 'full circumcision' to combat that and siphilous. Kellog didn't write his works until 100 years after that, and that nut job did promote circumcision for the very reasons you say. However even his type of circumcision was a minor operation, and did not require anaesthetic, though one might opt for it he discouraged that.
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This isn't accurate so far as U.S. history goes. Large swaths of the country were populated by immigrants in the mid to late 1800's and they did not practice circumcision. It was the anti-sex movement in Kellog's day combined with the dominance of centrally controlled medicine that did it. I am less sure about the Puritans, but I doubt it was a widespread practice even before.

Tlaloc said:
Oddly enough while the more mainstream views of medicine even since those times correctly identified the glans as the most sensitive part, the anti-masturbation crowd said the foreskin was, and that is the basis of saying circumcision made a difference with masturbation. People having received the surgery at an older age have actually occasionally said their glans was more sensitive after the operation, thereby (expectedly) showing that these views where wrong in almost every way. It shows where the 'circumcision leads to less sensitivity' idea came from, and gives some evidence against it
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Also not true. Current thought is that without the protective cover of the foreskin, the glans dries and forms a harder, less sensitive surface. Men who have done foreskin restoration (by manually stretching the skin to come up and cover the head) have widely reported increased sensitivity in sex. There are also a very large number of nerve endings in the foreskin which are removed; significantly reducing sexual pleasure.

I stopped circumcising my sons when I found out the truth about why we do it and what it does. If my son's want to be circumcised, I'll let them make that choice themselves; I'll not be responsible for robbing them of their sexual pleasure.
 
My comment is not about wither or not male infants should be circumcised, as I think that they should not be, but rather on the topic of foreskin restoration. Should one who is circumcised under go restoration techniques to restore themselves to their natural state?
^^^ that was the question.
please don't cut at things down there unless it is the 8th day,
if you're past that day, concentrate on circumcision of your heart or (guide your sons hearts)
pleeeease
:confused:

p.s. God himself creates eunuchs when he chooses to, i think, doesn't he?
....need a spelling section in this site .... yeeesh ....unicks...uniches...e?...euniks...
 
ginger2 said:
wail shoot dang. i just saw this conversation initiated 6 years ago ....
.... revised: 8 years ago.
:rolleyes: my brains fell out with my chill'uns.
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Long as there wasn't a circumcision of the brain.... would that be a frontal lobotomy?

I'll take the bottle in front of me...
 
Mark C said:
There are lots of things in the Bible that are good for us to do, from observing honest weights and measures to honoring our contracts, that may or may not be "salvation" issues. But "if we love Him", we will keep His commands anyway.

When God promises a blessing for obedience, He isn't kidding. Even if the great replacement god 'Science' is a bit slow in figuring it out, there are health benefits to whatever He recommends in His Word - whether it's food, or trimming.
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Medially there is no reason to circumcise in this day and age, my doctor advised against genital mutilation. Both my sons are not circumcised, I am not, nor was my father, grandfather, great-grandfather. Newer medical facts show it is healthier to not do so and it also avoids physical and mental trauma. People carry around a lot of, "Old facts", "Justifications", to do circumcision.
You would't want your daughter to have a, "Clitectomy" as so.e groups do, why do male babies need to be given such a disfiguring procedure? It is shameful to do that to body that is not yours!
 
GLB said:
Medially there is no reason to circumcise in this day and age, my doctor advised against genital mutilation. Both my sons are not circumcised, I am not, nor was my father, grandfather, great-grandfather. Newer medical facts show it is healthier to not do so and it also avoids physical and mental trauma. People carry around a lot of, "Old facts", "Justifications", to do circumcision.
You would't want your daughter to have a, "Clitectomy" as so.e groups do, why do male babies need to be given such a disfiguring procedure? It is shameful to do that to body that is not yours!
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And yet at one point it was a command. You could not be in communion with God if you were not circumcised. To my way of thinking that must meant it's not that bad. God wouldn't have required it if it wasn't in our best interests.
 
ZecAustin said:
And yet at one point it was a command. You could not be in communion with God if you were not circumcised. To my way of thinking that must meant it's not that bad. God wouldn't have required it if it wasn't in our best interests.
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Not everything God will have us to do is pleasant or physically beneficial; as the many martyr's can testify to. Spiritually beneficial, but physically bad.

GLB said:
it also avoids physical and mental trauma.
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This is not to be taken lightly. Last I knew, circumcision is still frequently done without anesthesia. The medical community is still in the dark ages. It was only in my lifetime that they realized that infants experience pain and surgery on them should be done under anesthetics. Barbaric.
 
ZecAustin said:
I am circumcised. My father is circumcised. All six of my sons are circumcised. I promise you that the experience is not that bad. They don't even seem to notice it after the actual event. I would be more worried about anesthesia than the actual procedure.
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Ditto’s except I don’t have 6 sons . . . . . Yet! LOL.
I’m also not sure about the lack of sensitivity. As someone who’s never had sex while uncircumcised, I wont be able to tell you if there’s any difference or not and it really makes me wonder how anybody knows. Seems like the only ones who would know would be the ones circumcised later in life. If so, the later age circumcision may be the cause, not necessarily circumcision itself.

The sensitivity issue also makes me wonder how its possible to survive any more of it.
 
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