Convincing the would-be father-in-law

[andrew]

Indeed. The friendly neighborhood polygamist... Ach, well, I'm trying to retrain a whole bunch of people in how they look at the Bible right now. Perhaps the whole group can discover this truth together.. any thoughts on group study?

I don't know if you can do this with integrity, but group study works really well when you're all learning together.

Scenario 1:

"Gather around, chilluns, and let Uncle Jacob lay some heavy bible truth on you that will straighten out your cultural misunderstandings."

Scenario 2:

"Lately I've noticed, or think I've noticed, that the bible doesn't have much to say about forbidding multiple wives. In fact, I'm really puzzled about why and how and when western Christianity got the idea that polygamy is prohibited. What do y'all know about this, and is this a topic you'd like to study together?"

Like I said, I don't know how much your group knows about what you know, and there are other ways you could put that out there as a group project without pretending something that's not true.

I got into this after an innocent question sparked a curiosity that initiated some preliminary research that led to some questions that resulted in a discussion at a cell church meeting that led to a high-spirited group investigation that led to some fascinating discoveries. It also led to our losing two members of that group, but that was their loss, not ours.

Bottom line is that I think you're asking exactly the right question. If you approach this as an exercise in retraining people with wrong ideas, you'll encounter a lot of unnecessary resistance. Treat it as an invitation for your group to make their own (guided) discoveries, and it could be a lot of fun.

 

[Courting4Life]

Sirs and ma'am,

A "Christian" father who doesn't believe that polygyny is allowed, even after being aware of it (shouldn't all Christians be aware of what's in the Bible?)... well, can he be considered an unbeliever? Does a "yes" from an unbelieving father still required?

By that logic, the act of disregarding the father's permission should bring one to question if one's self is a believer. "shouldn't all Christians be aware of what's in the Bible?" Not challenging your faith, but challenging the hypothetical breadth of application regarding Biblical direction.

 

[Lizness_Princess]

I don't really think there is anything you can say or do to "convince" someone to change their mind, especially when they don't want to change their mind, and most especially when it is about a topic they consider to be a foundational belief and value. I've found that the only one who has the ability to change hearts and minds is God. And even when God works with someone, He doesn't try to "convince" them of anything. He presents the truth and waits patiently for us to come to His understanding. Persuasion or "convincing" requires negotiation, and God doesn't really negotiate.

For example, you wouldn't go to a non-believer and try to convince them to believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and they can now have the opportunity to go to heaven if they repent and believe. But rather, you would listen to what they currently believe, present what you believe and the gospel, and allow God to convict their mind and heart of the truth. If you tried convincing them that they are wrong and you are right, then it is only going to push them further away because it is confrontational, and people don't like that. I don't believe God ever really tries to "convince" anyone to do anything. He says, "Follow me" and then He walks on and whether or not you follow is up to you. What good is it to say "Yes, now I believe that polygyny is an acceptable form of marriage and lifestyle to God" when you have been persuaded or convinced, rather than convicted? Being persuaded or "convinced" will only last for so long because there is no conviction of the truth or foundation. So even when I pray, I ask God to convict my mind, heart, and spirit in ways that will 1. give me no doubt that it came from Him, and 2. that I could never deny the experience happened.

When I was younger, I went to my dad and said, "Dad, there is going to be a baptism service on such-and-such Sunday, and I would like to finally get baptized. It's the right time for me. Is it okay if I do that?" And he looked at me and said, "No." I was SHOCKED. And even when I asked over and over again, he never said why and I got angry and left the room. I did not get baptized that Sunday. I think it was about a year or two later and I went back up to my dad again, but this time I said, "Dad, I have something important to tell you. I'm getting baptized this Sunday, whether or not you want me to or agree with me doing this. And if you try to stop me, I will find someone else to take me early this Sunday, because I WILL be baptized." I steeled myself for him to tell me off for the way I spoke to him and to tell me that I'm not going to get baptized again. But when he turned to me, he smiled and said, "Okay. What time do we need to be there?" I was flabbergasted and asked "Wait a second, why are you okay with this now and not when I asked you before?" I never forgot his answer: "The first time, you asked me. This time, you told me. I didn't want you to get baptized because it was just an opportunity or what everyone else in the youth group was doing. It had to be your decision, because you are the one who needs to be convicted in your faith. No one else can do that for you."

I guess it might be a little different when a man goes to a father to ask for whatever "permissions" or "blessings" or whatnot (I don't really pay attention to all that - way too formal for my taste), but I think it is also the responsibility of the daughter (or gal you're pursuing) to tell her father of what God has convicted her heart and mind, especially if you're at that point in the relationship. If she is supposed to be someone that is there to support you in a (possible) marriage, I think she is a key element in the process of telling the father of whatever intentions you may or may not have. After all, there will be a difference in his mind if he believes you've persuaded or hoodwinked his daughter into believing polygyny is okay vs. his daughter coming to him in confidence and conviction and says "Daddy, whether or not you agree, this is what I believe based on..blahblahblah. I also believe that God has been reaching out to me and have put blahblahblah in my life for suchandsuch purpose. Etc and so on."

But you can also look at Romeo and Juliet! Do you think that "if only Romeo had been able to convince Juliet's father that he was a decent guy and he loved his daughter.."..but then again, he would have died anyway because I'm pretty sure Juliet's daddy would have killed him the moment he found out Romeo was ringing his doorbell...Although I'm pretty sure they didn't have doorbells back then, did they? :/ Oh well, maybe we're just doomed anyways. Hahahaha

So like I said, if you're going to try to approach the father, make sure the chicka is ready and willing to stand her ground on what she believes, because she is your link to his heart. Anyways, that's my thought on all this...hopefully that was all relevant. LOL!

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

I think it probably best to clarify what I meant about retraining people regarding their approach to Biblical matters. This was meant in a much broader sense than the pm subject only. I have spent quite awhile with a group of believers who are trying to realign their lives according to what the Bible actually says rather than a set of doctrines. The trick is to not simply swap one batch of traditions for another, but to engender a fair approach to Scriptures, constantly weighing up the Word, on a case by case basis that remains fair and impartial rather than imposing our "correct view" on the text all the time.
Over the past several months, I've slaughtered a couple of holy cows, not by blasting them as stupidly wrong, but presenting a far stronger case for another viewpoint. It is my belief that if this group of people will truly be willing to go through the pain of letting go of what they have been taught, and develop an appreciation for the soundness of the method in how it presents the Bible as it is without coloring it with our social mores and personal preferences, then pm won't be much larger of an issue than any of the others. Of course, the point of the teaching isn't to spring pm on them one day... it just happens to be one of the issues this group will be confronted with as we make our journey chapter by chapter through the text.

That being said, I believe this discussion thread has produced some very valuable insights so far.

so... any thoughts on "the talk" with the mother-in-law? 8^)

 

[Lizness_Princess]

so... any thoughts on "the talk" with the mother-in-law? 8^)

Ummm...so if it's someone like my mother, don't even bother!! LOL!!
You'll just be wasting your time.

But, like my last post basically said/insinuated, why are YOU the one talking to HER parents about polygyny and it being acceptable to God, and under those terms, you're looking to pursue that gal as your 57th wife?

Why isn't SHE the one telling that to THEM? Again, SHE is the key to THEIR hearts...let her do the talking. Out of her own conviction. Actually, you shouldn't even have to ask that of her because she should have already been smoothing/paving the way for these types of meetings and conversations. By the time it comes to "meeting" or "talking" to the parents, she should have already set you both up for as much "success" as it's going to get.

Another thing to consider, is that if the girl you're pursuing came from a household that raised her with the thought that polygyny is sinful or wrong in every way, shape, and form, then realize that introducing this topic to her parents is a HUGE thing for her. She could lose everyone in her life, just because she says that she could possibly be interested in "getting to know" (much less "courting"/marrying/etc.) a married man!! Her sacrifice is much greater than yours at this moment!! I know if it were me, the moment I knew I might possibly be interested in someone in a "poly-type-setting", I would already be testing the waters and seeing where the ripples are. And from there, I would determine what would be the best avenue or strategy to "pave a successful way" for the possible inclusion of a potential suitor in my life, which also touches the lives of my family members. In this area, I would say: let her "lead" you through these muddy waters so you can both cross the river safely.

I would also say that if she doesn't do this for you...you may want to really ask and challenge her feelings/intentions towards you and/or your potential relationship. Because she may not be invested as much as you would like to believe.

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

muddy waters indeed... especially when you explain, "Oh, no, you misunderstand me... I don't want her as my 57th wife, just my 23rd concubine."

Though whether that would be the sort of joke that would get you planted in a small plot of ground or not is an entirely different matter!

 

[UntoldGlory]

Great stuff in here all! Liz, I found your baptism story and insights in that post really great!

The study group idea (I believe it was Andrew's) is actually something that's kind of naturally happening here. I've talked to a couple of friends (non-Christians) about what we've been looking in to, and they were totally cool with it. It's my Christian circle I've been more worried about. I talked to my first Christian friend about it today, and as part of the conversation he thought it would be cool to do an "Odd stuff" in the bible study, which as I informed him was how we'd come across Poly in the first place. I also thought it would be a fun study, as I get frustrated with mainstream Christianity focusing on the popular passages, and not really a lot of the really neat stuff in the bible (Leviathan, talking Donkeys, Polygamy, stuff like that). Later, when I got home (but before reading this topic), I was like "Wow, that could be a great, non-confrontational way to introduce some people to the biblical basis of Poly!"