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Meat Dear Sons-in-law....

Joleneakamama said:
I think just the single point of Zec promising to never undermine the son in law's authority is HUGE!
An old saying is good fences make good neighbors.
I thought it was very good and suggested hubby watch it. I'll let him post his own thoughts.
I'm not at all clear on what your objections are, but think far too much can get lost in communication. I have heard it said you should marry someone who feels blessed to have you, not someone who feels you are blessed to have them.
I think if you take the message in the spirit it was given, a father trying to share some hard learned and valuable truths with the young men who might marry his daughters.....you see a good father's heart.

Your sons may enjoy just meeting other less conventional christians. April 2018 we went to a hotel retreat and took our two oldest sons. This last year June hubby and the oldest three including our daughter drove up to Oregon for a hotel retreat. Our son Wes wishes he could have made the East Coast coming up....and all nine of 'em liked the summer retreat.
If you don't see the point....it may be your loss. Just sayin'.
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If the message was truly about not undermining a man's marriage to a daughter, then I would have no issue with the message. But that's not what was said, it was statements that resemble fear in becoming involved with someone who doesn't believe like he does and the young man would not be accepted by a person who would be outside the marriage. (Remember it is a YouTube video open for negative comments)

There is no scriptural support for such a message, it's just one man's belief. We are talking about two adults who have decided to marry. All we can do is offer support or advice and rely on the young adults upbringing to carry though their decisions. I made the statement that I would tell me sons to run for the hills did not take into consideration the fact that I sincerely believe my sons would have never find themselves in a relationship with a daughter that her father had these limiting views, much less get into that discussion.

All four of my sons are marrying age and we as a family have been a part of the young women that have come into thier lives. Some of them were good choices from my point of view, some of them not. I just peacefully state my opinion and let them decided. One thing I do tell them, make sure you find out as much as you can about the relationship between the father and the daughter. A father's control in a daughters marriage will destroy it in a heartbeat. The message I just saw was one of control. I say that because I personally have had that problem with a father who undermined my marriage to his daughter. He said all the right things that seemed sincere, I latter found out, he had other ideas.

I have raised my children to not live in fear of others beliefs so they meet all kinds of non conventional Christian. I trust them and have faith in them. Some beliefs are more rigid based on where I know my children come from so certain interactions would be pointless. (However if you Jolene have a daughter you're brining to a retreat, let me know, that would be interesting to see.)

Besides my sons go to Walmart on occasion.
 
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it was a barge of hate to someone who doesn't believe like he does and the young man would not be accepted by a person who would be outside the marriage.
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You must have a special kind of glasses @Cap. @The Revolting Man and I have had our differences in the past, and I didn’t agree with everything he had to say, but control and hate was the furthest conclusion from my mind as I watched it.

You’re skirting dangerously close to personal attacks with your use of this opinion. (If you havent already drastically overstepped it)
 
Cap said:
a daughter from a family like that,
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If I still had sons at home I would definitely recommend his daughters, because they are definitely being taught the patriarchal way. If his daughters were old enough for this old man, I would ask for one. Because they are being taught the Biblical standard of marriage.
 
Cap said:
If the message was truly about not undermining a man's marriage to a daughter, then I would have no issue with the message. But that's not what was said, it was a barge of hate to someone who doesn't believe like he does and the young man would not be accepted by a person who would be outside the marriage.

There is no scriptural support for such a message, it's just one man's belief. We are talking about two adults who have decided to marry. All we can do is offer support or advice and rely on the young adults upbringing to carry though thier decisions. This man's attempts to control spitting on himself with his forceful message is to me a sign of wanting to control others. I made the statement that I would tell me sons to run for the hills did not take into consideration the fact that I sincerely believe my sons would have never put themselves in relationship with a daughter from a family like that, much less get into that discussion.

All four of my sons are marrying age and we as a family have been a part of the young women that have come into thier lives. Some of them were good choices from my point of view, some of them not. I just peacefully state my opinion and let them decided. One thing I do tell them, make sure you find out as much as you can about the relationship between the father and the daughter. A father's control in a daughters marriage will destroy it in a heartbeat. The message I just saw was one of control.

I have raised my children to not live in fear of others beliefs so they meet all kinds of non conventional Christian. I trust them and have faith in them. Some beliefs are more rigid based on where I know my children come from so certain interactions would be pointless. (However if you Jolene have a daughter you're brining to a retreat, let me know, that would be interesting to see.)

Besides my sons go to Walmart on occasion.
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Just stop bro your constant attacks are hurting you more than anyone else.
 
Thank you for the explanation @Cap. I'll try and share my initial thoughts here.

Cap said:
There is no scriptural support for such a message, it's just one man's belief.
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What scripture would the patriarchs have referenced in making decisions about who to give their daughters to?
It is a scriptural principle that the father has authority over his house....and a responsibility to approve or disapprove of a suitor.
Cap said:
A father's control in a daughters marriage will destroy it in a heartbeat. The message I just saw was one of control.
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The message was a upfront statement of belief. A bit like letting someone know before they apply for a "job" what is expected. The promise to respect the authority of the man once married totally makes your control claim invalid.

I see things as slightly different when fathers are less patriarchal or when the daughter has moved out on her own. Then a father's blessing on the marriage is still good, but often the asking is just a polite gesture (as she wouldn't listen to him if he said no, don't marry him).

My parents talked with us a lot, but really just trusted our judgement. They felt we were the ones who had to live with our decision(s). (I have four sisters)
Really, a father can choose to be proactive in finding the kind of man he feels will best care for his daughter, or raise her and let her choose. Hubby has told our oldest daughter that if she listens to him and takes his advice in who not to marry then she will have one benefit for sure. If her dad approved husband ever beats her, her dad (and probably brothers too) will give him a taste of his own medicine.
If she chooses someone he does not think is a wise choice, she will have to deal with her decision herself.
That there would be such a response to a daughter being physically abused is the one thing my hubby would add to what Zec said.....and I think Zec might have hinted at such a thing with there being consequences to going to far???

Finally, how each man leads his family in a Christian walk is a reflection of his understanding of what righteousness looks like. And each and every one is.....just one man's opinion.
 
Cap said:
The message I just saw was one of control.
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I'm not sure where you're getting this control stuff. It was quite the opposite. He very clearly stated, and upfront, that he'd respect and support the headship of the husband. That is the very opposite of control, it is surrendering to due authority. Something most Christian parents don't do. The message as a whole was eminently Biblical, it just wasn't the kind of message where one includes citations.

Joleneakamama said:
I think Zec might have hinted at such a thing
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There is only so much one can say on Youtube. It's censored worse than broadcast tv or PG13 movies these days.

Joleneakamama said:
Hubby has told our oldest daughter that if she listens to him and takes his advice in who not to marry then she will have one benefit for sure. If her dad approved husband ever beats her, her dad (and probably brothers too) will give him a taste of his own medicine.
If she chooses someone he does not think is a wise choice, she will have to deal with her decision herself.
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Kudos to him for that.

'You made your bed no lie in it." is a bit of wisdom the church has completely forgotten.
 
Joleneakamama said:
I have heard it said you should marry someone who feels blessed to have you, not someone who feels you are blessed to have them.
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That's gold, Jolene!
 

All my failed relationships have been stepping stones to a closer relationship with the one who created them. True relationships can not be stopped, they have purpose for better or worse.

The solutions is in the upbringing. The choices a daughter makes in who she marries depends on that and not a set of rules that come after the fact. Meeting someone and they becoming a part of the family before the decision of marriage is made is a better way than going through a list of does and don'ts. Once love becomes involved any obstacles a father, or family places on the daughter will only alienate her from the father, or the family. The blessing of a father only go as far as those who a being blessed will accept it.
 
Cap said:

All my failed relationships have been stepping stones to a closer relationship with the one who created them. True relationships can not be stopped, they have purpose for better or worse.

The solutions is in the upbringing. The choices a daughter makes in who she marries depends on that and not a set of rules that come after the fact. Meeting someone and they becoming a part of the family before the decision of marriage is made is a better way than going through a list of does and don'ts. Once love becomes involved any obstacles a father, or family places on the daughter will only alienate her from the father, or the family. The blessing of a father only go as far as those who a being blessed will accept it.
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This sounds like the typical modern approach. How's that working out for most? This is terrible advice.

Raise the girls right. It's not her decision who she marries it's her fathers decision. Of course he would be foolish to not consider her thoughts about it but the idea that we would raise our girls in such an unbiblical way as if they should be the one choosing their husband is very unwise. I want better than that for my girls.
 
@Cap does have a good point in that if a couple are in love, parental rejection of their relationship can drive them closer together. If it becomes an emotive argument they can particularly feel rejected by their parents and drawn to the lover as a substitute for the love they feel they have lost. This is a real concern.

I think the solution is to not end up there. BOTH raise them to make good decisions themselves as @Cap said, and to respect their father's judgement as @Pacman said. To give input and direction early on, before such opposing perspectives develop - but to do that you also need to cultivate a relationship where they will share their life with you openly, naturally coming to you for advice, so you know what's going on. And, very critically, ensure they always feel loved and know your direction comes from a place of love, not rejection.

This isn't a choice between two opposite extremes, there is truth to consider in both perspectives.
 
I'm just going to throw these two monkey wrenches into this argument:

1. More listening and less certainty that one's opponent is dastardly.

Cap said:
The blessing of a father only go as far as those who a being blessed will accept it.
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2. I would have to challenge that, @Cap, and from my own personal experiences. Not only have numerous of my children refused to accept my blessings and admonitions only to turn around at a later time and inform me that despite their vehement rejection the blessings and admonitions had nonetheless sunk in to bear fruit.

I myself rebelled out the yin yang as a teenager. I tell people now quite sincerely that I am perhaps most grateful to my parents for not killing me before I finished growing up. When I left home I was sure I would never need either one of them again. Oh, I was the one in my family who regularly arranged for all of us to get together at holidays, but I was adamantly independent. One of the results of that and some of the behaviors of my brothers, though, was that my father basically curled up and died as far as being a strong leader by the time my youngest brother was out of the house, and he has studiously avoided anything but the most passive-aggressive covert kind of guidance ever since.

I have had a number of conversations with him over the years, after I finally matured, encouraging him to go back to seeing himself as our father, because he is the man and the only man who will ever be our father, and, despite our youthful foolishness of thinking we didn't need a father anymore, each of us will always need some fathering from him, and I consider it a real loss that he doesn't engage in anything that seriously resembles blessings or admonitions.

I'm pretty sure Scripture doesn't put a time limit or age limit on the admonitions to properly raise our children. It isn't exactly a matter of authoritarian authority; it's more a matter of maintaining that relationship with our children that we depend on our Father in Heaven to never abandon with His children.
 
The Revolting Man said:
I would disagree wholeheartedly with this. A father’s blessing has nothing to do with how the children respond. I’ve blessed my oldest daughter who rejects my very existence. I’m the father. She has no control over me or my blessing.
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I too have an older daughter that, because of life given to her by others, I have been alienated from her and I understand your point about giving your daughter a blessing even when she won't accept it. That's not really my point, my point is that we can bless our children all we want, but it's there upbringing that will eventually effect thier life and once they reach that place the blessings of all that we are as fathers stand for will come around and they will understand as they get older what goodness we really wanted in their lives. That's the kind of blessing I think is important.
 
Pacman said:
This sounds like the typical modern approach. How's that working out for most? This is terrible advice.

Raise the girls right. It's not her decision who she marries it's her fathers decision. Of course he would be foolish to not consider her thoughts about it but the idea that we would raise our girls in such an unbiblical way as if they should be the one choosing their husband is very unwise. I want better than that for my girls.
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We do live in a modern would. If a father raises a daughter right, she will make the right choice. If she doesn't she is at least close enough to listen to advice. Saying that a father should be the one to choose for the daughter is in the lines of what was done in the old days of settling a bride price. However much you would like that to be done today, it's not likely to happen. Times have changed, the world is a much bigger place. And the daughter you want to protect from the world has input from all sides. You can't make choices for her out of the world she lives in. You can only help her make the right choice for herself.
 
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