Divorce & Remarriage...???

[FollowingHim2]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Alright, I'll say it. Somebody has to. Where does it say abuse is grounds for a divorce? I could understand it being a grounds for separation and certainly intervention by the church but as far as I can tell it is never even directly mentioned in the Bible, its a pretty big stretch to read an excuse for a divorce into that. I was under the impression that there was no biblical reason for a wife to divorce her husband.

Thank you. Exactly what I asked and I didn't get an answer.

 

[beethowengregory13]

The Scriptures say turn the other cheek. Simply get out of the situation that put you in that place.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Ever since UntoldGlory wrote this...

Sorry man, but that some serious pot calling the kettle black there. Pretty much every response you type to someone is you telling them how they're wrong because they don't share your view/interpretation. I really do like some of your insights and ideas, but I find myself skimming many of your posts because they're just overly defensive or attacking.

...I have been praying about my typing style. It seems that my determination to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Christ and His apostles has been either mistyped, misread or both as a kind of I'm-right-and-you're-wrong legalism.

My determination to follow the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ, rather than any sinful human, has not changed. Forcing my ideas on anyone else was never intended however so apparently my typing style needs to change.

Please bear with me as I learn a new typing style.
--------------------------------------------------

Alright, I'll say it. Somebody has to. Where does it say abuse is grounds for a divorce? I could understand it being a grounds for separation and certainly intervention by the church but as far as I can tell it is never even directly mentioned in the Bible, its a pretty big stretch to read an excuse for a divorce into that. I was under the impression that there was no biblical reason for a wife to divorce her husband.

Thank you. Exactly what I asked and I didn't get an answer.

Where does it say that abuse is "grounds for divorce? It (the Bible) doesn't. Neither did I. The woman never has the right to divorce her husband.

The guidance that I have from the Holy Spirit on the matter, and thus the course I follow for myself and my family, is that abuse IS divorce. It is not "grounds" for divorce it IS divorce regardless of which person is doing it. Others can follow their own course as they see fit. I'm not forcing my views on others. This is the course I will follow with my own family.

The biblical expression of this is what I refer to as two-step logic and any idea that is based on human logic may, or may not, be flawed. Thus I will not force my ideas on anyone but I also will not be swayed from something that I perceive as the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The logic is as follows...

1. 1. Given: The simple act of planning out, or in this case threatening, to commit the sin is the same as doing it. (Matthew 5:28)
   2. Given: This applies to murder just as much as any other sin
2. Conclusion: Threatening to kill one's spouse is the same as doing it.
   
   • Given: Threatening to kill one's spouse is the same as doing it.
   • Given: Marriage is only until death-do-us-part.
3. Conclusion: A person who has even so much as threatened to kill his/her spouse is guilty of divorce by murder. Thus the abuse victim is free to leave and is free to remarry.

That's what I believe. Others can chart their own course.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

It's all good man, growing is the important bit. There are many things about the way I used to communicate that I wish I could reach back through time and smack myself over the head for, and likely will have similar thoughts in the future about this present day.

As to the matter at hand, I actually can get behind Wesley's thought pattern there. It may seem a bit convoluted or "loop-hole"ish, but in the case of actually threatening life I totally buy off on it.

Further, I'd postulate that anyone, man or woman, who is with an abuser should be considered to be with an unbeliever, since no matter what they profess with their mouth, the abuser is not in fact living the life of a believer. Now, 1st Corinthians 7 does say at a man or woman married to an unbeliever should stay with them if the unbeliever is willing, however I could make argument about what exactly "willing" means. Like, an abuser is not "willing" to live by the marriage covenant, and therefore is not "willing" to stay married.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

It's all good man, growing is the important bit. There are many things about the way I used to communicate that I wish I could reach back through time and smack myself over the head for, and likely will have similar thoughts in the future about this present day.

Don't you know a 'you're probably right' when you hear one? Or in this case see one?

As to the matter at hand, I actually can get behind Wesley's thought pattern there. It may seem a bit convoluted or "loop-hole"ish, but in the case of actually threatening life I totally buy off on it.

I've never advocated leaving over a playful swat on the backside. Anything in between that and an open death threat is a judgment call however. If the person honestly believes that their life is in danger then they need to evacuate.

Further, I'd postulate that anyone, man or woman, who is with an abuser should be considered to be with an unbeliever, since no matter what they profess with their mouth, the abuser is not in fact living the life of a believer. Now, 1st Corinthians 7 does say at a man or woman married to an unbeliever should stay with them if the unbeliever is willing, however I could make argument about what exactly "willing" means. Like, an abuser is not "willing" to live by the marriage covenant, and therefore is not "willing" to stay married.

Here's what the Apostle Paul has to say on the subject...

1 Timothy 5:8 NIV
8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If a person who does not take care of their spouse (a member of their own household), which includes providing a living environment that is as safe as is humanly possible, then the person is "worse than an unbeliever."

That makes it a judgment call as to whether or not the person is required to stay. Yes, we are required to stay with an unbeliever (1 Corinthians 7:12-13 and 1 Peter 3:1-2) but a person who seriously neglects or abuses their spouse (life-threatening) is worse than an unbeliever and based on Exodus 21:10-11 we don't seem to be required to stay with such a person.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Scenario:
*A man and his wife are unfaithful to each other by fornication and adultery. She divorces him.

I think the last part about a divorce initiated by the wife is the first problem. Biblically-speaking, divorce is only an option to be done by the husband. The wife at best can separate or try to pressure her husband to divorce her but then she cant remarry until husband dies or until he commits adultery by sleeping with a woman who belongs to someone else (including women who are unlawfully divorced).

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

*** I suppose my concern is more focused on remarriage, because it troubles me to think that a person who is under grace and repentant of sin yet living as a divorcee couldn't remarry!?!

If I'm honest I'd say that it breaks my heart to think remarriage wouldn't be a possibility when I see single moms who either were thrown away by their husbands or who chose to get out of an abusive relationship!?! If I'm even more honest I'd admit that I have a strong desire to scoop up such women and show them the love and affection they need and deserve, and to help raise up her precious children in a healthy godly home environment as a father they desperately need leading them!

Yes, its troubling that there are so many single moms out there but i question how these women viewed marriage before getting married. Had some of these women considered or were educated on God's standards then perhaps they wouldve been more careful on choosing a marriage partner. If you try to lower Gods standards by allowing these women to remarry then thats feeding the problem (i.e. the lack of Godly standards) rather than fixing or learning from the problem.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

I think the last part about a divorce initiated by the wife is the first problem. Biblically-speaking, divorce is only an option to be done by the husband. The wife at best can separate or try to pressure her husband to divorce her but then she cant remarry until husband dies or until he commits adultery by sleeping with a woman who belongs to someone else (including women who are unlawfully divorced).

I find myself curious as to what scripture allows a woman to divorce her husband for committing adultery with another man's wife.

I see several passages of scripture that seem to say exactly the opposite, that a woman must stay with her husband even if he is acting like an unbeliever, which would include being an adulterer. (e.g. 1 Peter 3:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 7:13) I have not found any scripture that allows a woman to divorce and remarry over such an issue however.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

I think the last part about a divorce initiated by the wife is the first problem. Biblically-speaking, divorce is only an option to be done by the husband. The wife at best can separate or try to pressure her husband to divorce her but then she cant remarry until husband dies or until he commits adultery by sleeping with a woman who belongs to someone else (including women who are unlawfully divorced).

I find myself curious as to what scripture allows a woman to divorce her husband for committing adultery with another man's wife.

I see several passages of scripture that seem to say exactly the opposite, that a woman must stay with her husband even if he is acting like an unbeliever, which would include being an adulterer. (e.g. 1 Peter 3:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 7:13) I have not found any scripture that allows a woman to divorce and remarry over such an issue however.

Good question and I am wrong or havent found any Scripture to support that point of mine. I thought that Matthew 19:9 applied to the sexual immorality of the wife and husband but it only seems to refer to the wife's adultery.

So if a married man commits adultery by sleeping with the wife of another, his (the adulterous husband) wife still cant remarry? A bit unfair but got it - unless you take away the divorce option from both parties. The only way, although nonbiblical way, the innocent wife can get out of the marriage is to go ahead and cheat also and then pressure her husband to divorce her, which justifiably ends the marriage, and then she can remarry.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Good question and I am wrong or havent found any Scripture to support that point of mine. I thought that Matthew 19:9 applied to the sexual immorality of the wife and husband but it only seems to refer to the wife's adultery.

So if a married man commits adultery by sleeping with the wife of another, his (the adulterous husband) wife still cant remarry? A bit unfair but got it - unless you take away the divorce option from both parties. The only way, although nonbiblical way, the innocent wife can get out of the marriage is to go ahead and cheat also and then pressure her husband to divorce her, which justifiably ends the marriage, and then she can remarry.

A woman can remarry if her husband divorces her regardless of what his reason is. Let's examine the possibilities...

1. If the husband is an unbeliever divorcing the woman for an invalid reason - the woman can remarry. (1 Corinthians 7:15)
2. If the husband claims to be a believer but divorces his wife for an invalid reason then he is refusing to take care of a member of his household which makes him worse than an unbeliever (1 Timothy 5:8) so 1 Corinthians 7:15 applies in this case as well.
3. If the husband is a believer or unbeliever divorcing the woman for a valid reason then she can repent from her sin and come to Christ making herself a new being in Christ and all past sins, including her marriage and the sin that broke it, are wiped away.

Frankly I don't see a reason why a woman could not remarry if her husband is the one who makes the decision to divorce her. In my understanding...

1. the only time that a woman cannot remarry is if she is the one who makes the decision to divorce. (e.g. leaving him, neglecting him, abusing him or pressuring him to divorce her because of his interest in another woman)
2. the only time that a man cannot remarry is if he chooses to divorce his wife for an invalid reason at which point he gives up the right to marry any other woman to replace her (e.g. leaving her, neglecting her, abusing her or pressuring her to leave him for any reason except sexual immorality)

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

A woman can remarry if her husband divorces her regardless of what his reason is. Let's examine the possibilities...

1. If the husband is an unbeliever divorcing the woman for an invalid reason - the woman can remarry. (1 Corinthians 7:15)
2. If the husband claims to be a believer but divorces his wife for an invalid reason then he is refusing to take care of a member of his household which makes him worse than an unbeliever (1 Timothy 5:8) so 1 Corinthians 7:15 applies in this case as well.
3. If the husband is a believer or unbeliever divorcing the woman for a valid reason then she can repent from her sin and come to Christ making herself a new being in Christ and all past sins, including her marriage and the sin that broke it, are wiped away.

I have some disagreements.
- Scripture says whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery (Matthew 5:32). If your point about remarriage were correct then the woman who was divorced for whatever reason would not be called adulterer so there's a conflict here. And the guy who unjustifiably divorced her would be a nonbeliever by your logic but we still have the divorced woman being called an adulterer.

- 1 Corinthians 7:15 does not necessarily mean you can remarry. Not being bound can also mean remaining single just like the person in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 remains single. Not being bound means you dont have to stay in the marriage, but its a leap in logic to say that just because the marriage is over, that you can remarry. And this assumes the nonbeliever divorces as opposed to just separating.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

I have some disagreements.

Good. Disagreements are a good thing so long as they stay peaceful. Disagreements cause discussion and iron sharpens iron in discussion.

- Scripture says whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery (Matthew 5:32). If your point about remarriage were correct then the woman who was divorced for whatever reason would not be called adulterer so there's a conflict here. And the guy who unjustifiably divorced her would be a nonbeliever by your logic but we still have the divorced woman being called an adulterer.

This is a point of disagreement. The Greek word that is used for a divorced woman in both Matthew 5:32 and Luke 16:18 is "ἀπολελυμένην." In my understanding it does not mean "is divorced." It means "has divorced" which is slightly different. In this case it is the difference between being abandoned by a man (is divorced) and abandoning a man (has divorced). So it seems to me that it is only adultery to marry a divorced woman if the woman "has divorced" her husband (i.e. abandoned him) as opposed to having been abandoned by him.

- 1 Corinthians 7:15 does not necessarily mean you can remarry. Not being bound can also mean remaining single just like the person in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 remains single. Not being bound means you dont have to stay in the marriage, but its a leap in logic to say that just because the marriage is over, that you can remarry. And this assumes the nonbeliever divorces as opposed to just separating.

In my opinion the key flaw in this position is that God does not follow human laws. The difference between separation and divorce is mostly, but not all, a human invention.

Based on 1 Corinthians 7 it seems to me that the biblical difference between separation and divorce can be defined simply...

• Is the person trying to remarry?
  • yes = divorced
  • no = separated

That seems to me to be true regardless of any legal documentation that might exist. (i.e. a woman with a lawfully court ordered divorce decree who is not trying to remarry is separated in God's eyes rather than divorced regardless of what the legal paperwork says.) The legal paperwork is simply irrelevant in God's eyes.

As for the idea of telling a person (male or female) who has been abandoned by their spouse that they can't remarry, that is far too close to pharisaic legalism for me to ever do that. If you want to then you go right ahead. Christ and His apostles did not have any good words for those who practiced Pharisaic legalism however so I'm going to refrain.

In my mind 1 Timothy 4:1-3 seems to address that issue directly. There just aren't any words to support exceptions such as: forbidding marriage is the doctrine of demons "unless the man is already married" or "unless the person has been abandoned by their spouse." So I'm just not comfortable with the idea of telling people, "you can't remarry."

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

This is a point of disagreement. The Greek word that is used for a divorced woman in both Matthew 5:32 and Luke 16:18 is "ἀπολελυμένην." In my understanding it does not mean "is divorced." It means "has divorced" which is slightly different. In this case it is the difference between being abandoned by a man (is divorced) and abandoning a man (has divorced). So it seems to me that it is only adultery to marry a divorced woman if the woman "has divorced" her husband (i.e. abandoned him) as opposed to having been abandoned by him.

I can agree that the Greek word for divorce in Matthew 5:32 can refer to the divorced and the divorcer and i say that since i see the same Greek word used for the husband who divorces. The issue is knowing which definition is valid for the woman, that is, is she the divorcer or the divorced person? All of the English translations mention that she is the person being divorced. Also, if we go by the context instead of just one word, i see that there's only one woman being talked in Matthew 5:32 which is the divorced woman. And last, theologically-speaking i fail to see why the husband who unjustifiably divorces his wife cant remarry but then his divorced wife can. Then if he remarries he commits adultery against her eventhough she's married to someone else herself? Thats an issue that comes up if we go by your view.

As for the idea of telling a person (male or female) who has been abandoned by their spouse that they can't remarry, that is far too close to pharisaic legalism for me to ever do that. If you want to then you go right ahead. Christ and His apostles did not have any good words for those who practiced Pharisaic legalism however so I'm going to refrain.

In my mind 1 Timothy 4:1-3 seems to address that issue directly. There just aren't any words to support exceptions such as: forbidding marriage is the doctrine of demons "unless the man is already married" or "unless the person has been abandoned by their spouse." So I'm just not comfortable with the idea of telling people, "you can't remarry."

Well telling a woman that she has no option to divorce or that a man has no option to remarry under certain conditions sound legalistic as well. Either way, what you and I think is legalistic is subjective at this point. My position is that 1 Corinthians 7 does not say that someone can remarry after being divorced or abandoned. And really i see that Matthew 5:32 would be against your view, unless the divorce was for reasons involving adultery.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

I can agree that the Greek word for divorce in Matthew 5:32 can refer to the divorced and the divorcer and i say that since i see the same Greek word used for the husband who divorces. The issue is knowing which definition is valid for the woman, that is, is she the divorcer or the divorced person?

The hole in that argument is that the exact conjugation of the Greek word "ἀπολελυμένην" that is used in Matthew 5:32 ONLY occurs in exactly two places in the entire Bible. They are Matthew 5:32 and Luke 16:18 and in both cases they refer to marrying a woman who has abandoned her husband being adultery.

All other uses of the root word of divorcee that occur in the Bible are, in fact, different conjugations and thus are different words. So, I'm sorry about your luck, but that word is never used in the Bible to refer to someone, male or female, who was abandoned by their spouse.

As for the rest, I do agree that we've reached an impasse and it's best for both of us to just move on.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

I can agree that the Greek word for divorce in Matthew 5:32 can refer to the divorced and the divorcer and i say that since i see the same Greek word used for the husband who divorces. The issue is knowing which definition is valid for the woman, that is, is she the divorcer or the divorced person?

The hole in that argument is that the exact conjugation of the Greek word "ἀπολελυμένην" that is used in Matthew 5:32 ONLY occurs in exactly two places in the entire Bible. They are Matthew 5:32 and Luke 16:18 and in both cases they refer to marrying a woman who has abandoned her husband being adultery.

All other uses of the root word of divorcee that occur in the Bible are, in fact, different conjugations and thus are different words. So, I'm sorry about your luck, but that word is never used in the Bible to refer to someone, male or female, who was abandoned by their spouse.

What is your source for the Greek word? Also seeing that the word has more than one definition, why is your choice of definition correct over all of the other English translations and definitions?

And again, im curious about why or how a man who unjustifiably divorces his wife is committing adultery against HER (the divorced wife - Mark 10:11) if the marriage is already over and the wife is allowed to get a new husband to provide for her.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Deuteronomy 24:3,4 indicates a divorced woman can not remarry, or at least not after being divorced for an UNjustified and seemingly subjective reason that the 2nd husband divorced her for. Also mentions after that particular divorce that the divorced woman is defiled which would indicate no man can marry her again.

 

[Wesley]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Also seeing that the word has more than one definition, why is your choice of definition correct over all of the other English translations and definitions?

I had already said that we are at an impasse and need to move on. When asinine accusations like that one appear over the fact that I dare to have an opinion that differs from yours it is definitely time for me to move.

Have a nice day.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

Also seeing that the word has more than one definition, why is your choice of definition correct over all of the other English translations and definitions?

I had already said that we are at an impasse and need to move on. When asinine accusations like that one appear over the fact that I dare to have an opinion that differs from yours it is definitely time for me to move.

Have a nice day.

I havent made any personal comments about you nor have I expressed having a problem with your views just because they are contrary to my views.

When you are ready to back up some of your claims with evidence and some logic please let me know.

 

[PolyPride]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

1 Timothy 5:8 NIV
8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Since abandonment is the ultimate neglect that means that any time a spouse (male or female) abandons their partner(s) the partner is free to remarry regardless of whether the guilty party claims to be a believer or not.

Personally, I believe that abuse or neglect constitutes divorce/abandonment so the victim is the one who is free to remarry as well.

If a husband divorces, he can still provide for his family through child support and spousal support, etc. But I'd also add that if the divorced wife herself has the means to provide for herself, like by getting a job/education, then the guy should not have to provide everything for her.

So at least nowadays your point is irrelevant and the husband would not be worse than a non-believer if he continues to provide for his wife even post-divorce, assuming she needs support especially if the husband has custody of the kids. So the husband is not a non-believer afterall and none of them can remarry unless they reconcile with each other.

Also going by 1 Timothy 5:8, EVERYONE is supposed to provide for each other so it's not just a duty for a husband and his household. I fail to see if the husband doesn't provide why can't other relatives provide for her? And if they didn't they'd be nonbelievers, as well, right?

 

[Oreslag]

Re: Divorce & Remarriage...???

There is also as I read it no remarriage for a man who divorces his wife unjustly, that is for reasons other than adultery.

Adultery is not the sole justification for a man to divorce his wife, nor does the Word make this claim as nearly as I can tell. If we're considering Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5 and Matthew 19 (as I presume), He does not use the word adultery (though He quite clearly could have), but rather chose to use the word prostitution; which many English translations now render 'sexual immorality', but the NIV translates 'marital unfaithfullness.'

Consider God's (clearly just) reason for divorcing Israel in Jeremiah 3. In particular, He divorced Israel for her unfaithfullness to Him; for following after other gods, for idolatry. This seems to be what Jesus is referring to here as well, because the just penalty prescribed by God for adultery is death.

Of course, one could argue that God is also merciful and that divorce rather than death is simply merciful. Surely enough, this is true. However, it remains true that unfaithfullness to your head is a just reason for divorce, as God Himself did to Israel. Thus, if a man cannot secure peace in his house because an unrepentant wife persists in rebellion against his authority, this is surely a just reason to divorce as well.