Do fathers "own" their daughters?

[DiscussingTheTopic]

So you ask. The person who has the authority (whomever that is) says no. Then what do you do?

I thought I already answered this clearly just a few minutes ago, I apologize for saying the same thing twice.

I think if the person who has authority says no, then you can not marry the woman unless you get him to change his mind. However in many many cases the person does not actually have authority just because he is her father in my opinion.

In some cases you are not required to ask and can marry the woman against her father's will. My personal belief is that if the woman's father is not a Christian, and he is not a citizen of Israel or a physical descendant of Jacob, then her father's permission is not required.

So usually if the father is a Muslim, or Hindu or atheist, etc. the man can marry the woman without his permission. [That being said it might be hard to get women from certain cultures to be willing to do anything willingly without their father's permission.]

Now if you are convinced that her father is not a christian even though he says he is, you can count him as not a Christian. So then if he is not genetically or nationally an Israelite, you can marry the woman without the father's permission. If a woman's father is not a Christian and he is religiously "Jewish' but not genetically or nationally an Israelite you can also marry the woman without her father's permission.

I believe that if your parents are not Christian there are many situations in which you do not have to obey them.

But I do not know if I can prove (at the present time) that this is anything more than my personal belief about marriage. However I know (for fact not opinion) that there have been times when I was required to do something my parents did not want me to do in order to do what is right.

 

[steve]

hmmm, i see that dtt has stolen my thunder, but i will post it anyway

So you ask. The person who has the authority (whomever that is) says no. Then what do you do?

we would need to look at the particular situation and define the authority. most do not own up to the responsibility of their authority
for most situations nowadays asking is more of a courtesy than to seek actual permission

if he said no, might i call him an ingrate for not falling to his knees and thanking me for not taking her off his hands?

JUST KIDDING!!!

 

[Anonymous]

So you ask. The person who has the authority (whomever that is) says no. Then what do you do?

I think this question is worded much better, because we can avoid the discussion of WHO that authority may (or may not) actually be, and get to the real crux of the issue. What do you do when the proper and lawful AUTHORITY for the girl says no?

As Believers, the answer must not violate proper Biblical authority, so unless one is able to convince the proper authority to change their mind, they must not steal what they can not otherwise have lawfully. Negotiate, obligate or ingratiate to acquire the object of your affection, but do not attempt to circumvent proper Biblical authority to simply take what you wish. Seven years labor ought to do it. :lol:

In His love,
David

 

[Anonymous]

So you ask. The person who has the authority (whomever that is) says no. Then what do you do?

So usually if the father is a Muslim, or Hindu or atheist, etc. the man can marry the woman without his permission.

Now if you are convinced that her father is not a christian even though he says he is, you can count him as not a Christian.

So then if he is not genetically or nationally an Israelite, you can marry the woman without the father's permission.

:shock: So, if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that a Christian man can really take any girl he wants, irrespective of her father's permission. Since Scripture demonstrates the authority that a father has over his daughter is the same form of authority that a husband has over his wife, I wonder if Joseph was wrong in not laying with Potipher's wife. After all, Potipher was certainly not a physical descendant of Jacob, so if we can steal his daughter, surely we can steal his wife too.

In His love,
David

 

[steve]

What do you do when the proper and lawful AUTHORITY for the girl says no?

i agree with you about proper authority. i was being a little light-hearted there.
ok, if the girl is, say, 16 to 18. (btw: i am not going to consider courting her) she is definitely under her fathers authority. even if he is not a believer she is legally under his authority.
between 18 and 21. (again, i will not court her) at this age in this society she is reaching the age of her majority. if the father says no at 19, ask him what he would like to see in you and then both of you grow for a couple more years. if he is still saying no at 21, you have some serious issues to resolve. it may be that you are the problem (that 4th DWI did not help )
outside of islam, the odds that you are going to run into a father who believes that he has the right to say no to a choice that his 21+ daughter has made is so small that i do not see the value of discussing it. but if it happens, as david said, work it out. if she is worth it, then value her and do what it takes. alienating your childrens grandfather is not a good start, even if he is not completely reasonable.
remember: act in haste, repent for a long time

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

The focus has been on the father in these threads, but there is a solid exegetical case, unless one is hopelessly focused on just a few verses of the OT with an unwillingness to systematize those verses with the other texts of Scripture, to show that the Bible as a whole in various books gives the woman several places to be released to another.

First, as already noted, some verses do speak of a father who gives his daughter. Clear examples of this is in Deut. 22.

But secondly, we see that brothers can also fill this role. Song of Songs 8:8-9 shows this where the young virgin is watched over by her brothers.

Third, in the story of Ruth and Boaz we see Boaz even going to the nearest relative to see where Ruth should properly be transferred (Ruth 4).

Fourth, though hotly debated by those who are fluent in Greek I believe the straight forward literal reading of 1 Cor. 7. 36-38 is so precisely stated that it shows a woman is under an authority but the specific term for physical father is vividly absent. For example in English Young's Literal translation does a decent job in translating this: "and if any one doth think [it] to be unseemly to his virgin, if she may be beyond the bloom of age, and it ought so to be, what he willeth let him do; he doth not sin -- let him marry, and he who hath stood stedfast in the heart -- not having necessity -- and hath authority over his own will, and this he hath determined in his heart -- to keep his own virgin -- doth well ."

Many want to insert into this the idea of a father by focusing on one idea and pushing that into this verse. But Paul leaves it open as to who the person is over the virgin. Why? Because of the omniscience of God who inspired Paul to write this text which would cover all of the options. Thus, if it were the brothers over the virgin then they would be the authority. It could be a spiritual leader over the virgin, such as a male elder, to whom the virgin is under (Hebrew 13:17) which we clearly see by the way the Apostle/Elder John wrote in 3 John 4 where he called his spiritual children his children. This is the concept like Paul speaking of Timothy as his true child in the faith (1 Tim. 1:2). In the apostolic church the elders were truly seen as an authority over their flock, something that is so often despised and outright rejected today by rebels who hate the concept of authority. But one must keep in mind the words of Christ, when people chose to follow him many families were torn apart. Following Christ divided families in some cases. Thus many virgins lost all they had when following Christ because their families basically disowned them. Many young Jewish girls who embraced the Messiah had no relationship with their fathers any more and thus new authorities were given to be the guide in their life. So Paul's words here, which is not just a simple repeating of OT law but is inspired revelation that pulls principles from the the law to provide a specific portion of truth and it harmonizes all of the principles and gives room for there to be more than just a physical father over the virgin.

Fifth, Dr. Raegean has also mentioned to me another fact that I forgot to include herein in the first writing of this. In two cases we have examples of women being given by the first wives. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham and Rachel and Leah also did likewise with their maidservants as they gave them unto Jacob. Again this shows that there was an authority figure involved but it was not only and just the father. It could even be ladies who functioned in that role when the norms were not the norm

Sixth, we would also give room for the culture here as well which would be for those outside of the Christian faith. If someone does not believe in Christ then it may be the secular government or rulers of the land (King, legislative body, etc) that sets the guide on when and how one is given in marriage. In our culture we see this to a degree for those that choose to go through the court systems for marriage by obtaining a license. In these cases one simply follows the path set before them and the legal official gives the lady away. But again, I'm stressing this as the way that those outside of the faith go, not as the primary or first choice way to properly go for a believer.

The bottom line is if one lives by the fullness of Scripture and by the primary law of the Bible, love God and love your neighbor, then there will be two desires: (1) A healthy respect for legitimate authority, and (2) a love for what is best and good for the people involved. Not everyone in here has had the opportunity to pastor people and to see all of the unusual circumstances that occur in families. Having served as a pastor for many years I've seen some crazy stuff happen. I've literally see unbelieving fathers want their mature Christian daughters to recant the name of Christ, never marry at all so the daughter would be around to be abused and experience horrific things as this. And hopefully this is not what any would say herein, God forbid if they do, but to tell a Christian woman who is under godly elders (a new set of spiritual authorities over her) to go back to her abusive, drug headed, pagan physical father to let him guide her in who to marry when he either refuses or wants her to marry an unbelieving drug headed buddy of his is so dumb of an idea that should one ever suggest such a thing I would suppose a teaching on the gospel of Christ might be needed for that person as he or she who would ever suggest something like that is so far removed from the concep of Love they know little of who Christ is. Again, I don't think I have seen any one these threads say that and hopefully none of us would ever fall to such a godless position as that. And this example above is just one of many in which I have dealt with having pastored people. If a person were to focus so much on that idea of the law not only are they missing other portions of the Bible but they are using the law of God to further abuse the abused!

One must ask why did God give the OT Law and others laws in the Bible on giving a woman away? It is not just a law because God likes to make laws. There is a principle behind the law, and that principle is love. God wants us to be safe, happy, and secure as his people. The principle behind all of the Bible is relational. God as a father wants his people to relate well. The principle and purpose behind the law about an authority giving a woman away was so that the woman would not be emotionally deceived, tricked, swooned by someone who was a bad match for the woman. God wants someone who is an objective source, a guide, a mature believer or set of mature believers to be able to give proper guidance. That was the intent and purpose behind the "transfer" ideology, not just to have some law for the sake of law or for the sake of giving someone the right to control a person. It is not about control, rather it is about looking out for your closest neighbor's best interest, which is what love does.

A woman who has a reasonable father or a relationship with her father, believer or unbeliever, can start there if he truly is still an authority over her life. If he is not in her life or is not an authority over her life then she may be guided by other family members, brothers, extended relatives, her spiritual leader or elders or elders she has submitted herself unto, and if for some reason she does not have anyone then if their is no authority over her then she would have to make her own decision or with the guidance of those who know her best and are closest to her as she seeks to fulfill the principle behind the law, which is to make sure she is being objective and reasonable in her decision and not simply being emotional and wreckless because of the romantic pursuit of some man. This can be done in various forms so long as the principle behind the law is being honestly pursued in the heart.

Dr. Allen

 

[CecilW]

Wow! Now that was a great answer, Dr. Keith.

But here I come with the Cecil perspective to the original question: Do fathers "own" their daughters? :roll:

What occurs to me is to remember that the term "husband's" original or complete meaning is "house-band". The one who sets and maintains the bands or boundaries of protection for this household, within which the inhabitants may exercise personal freedom in safety.

A daughter living (ideally) within the authority of her father's household is free to exercise her freedom. And when another man offers for her in marriage, he is asking to have her life transferred from the house-band in which she was raised to his own, where she will continue to live in freedom and safety.

This is more like a modern concept of "king" or perhaps "pastor" than "slave-owner". Necessary rules, protection, leadership, and then freedom within those boundaries. Perhaps the terms "citizenship" or "membership" make sense.

That's the ideal. Of course, not everyone gets that situation. Some men DO misuse their authority via absolute control or abuse of various types. Others are absent for any of a variety of reasons. God is smart enough and compassionate enough to provide alternatives, as Dr. Keith has so clearly laid out.

But here is a question for the fellas: Assuming that the woman in question DOES have a clear, non-abusive authority figure in her life, (a father or, in his absence, a mother or other close male relative who fills the role,) but she's willing to flout their authority to have her own way by marrying you without their permission and blessing, why would you WANT her?

Take your TP out of the mix for the moment (Testosterone Poisoning :lol: ). Along with the flattery you feel, that she chooses YOU over her family. Leaves you kinda flat? Excellent! Now ask yourself ...

"If she's willing to flout the clear authority in her existing life to get her own way, then what in the lacy blue blazes makes me think that she'll bow and submit to authority in OUR life together? Won't she, more likely, by gum and by jiminy get her own way regardless of what I say?" Don't expect to be pleased with the answer.

(And remember that this is talking about a relatively normal situation. If there is or was abuse of authority involved, then there are other complications involved.

Hudson Taylor, a seriously great missionary to China, (since someone brought up Nanking,) gives us a better example, IMO. He met his beloved IN China, where they were both serving. Her father or guardian (I disremember the detail) was in England. He wrote requesting her hand and was refused. Truth to tell, said guardian couldn't have done much about it had Hudson and his intended gone ahead. Instead, they joined in prayer that God would bring about the necessary permission, if it was His will. Took a year and a half, but it WAS eventually granted, and their union was truly blessed, as was their mission.

Without claiming that I woulda had the fortitude to have followed that example, having had a fairly severe case of TP in my younger years , it does seem to be the more noble path.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay, so first I thought Dr. Keith's response was excellent (complements to your insightful understanding, btw) and then I read Cecil's answer and he nailed the practical issue dead-on. These are some really powerful and practical answers, guys!

A daughter living (ideally) within the authority of her father's household is free to exercise her freedom. And when another man offers for her in marriage, he is asking to have her life transferred from the house-band in which she was raised to his own, where she will continue to live in freedom and safety.

This is more like a modern concept of "king" or perhaps "pastor" than "slave-owner". Necessary rules, protection, leadership, and then freedom within those boundaries. Perhaps the terms "citizenship" or "membership" make sense.

Exactly. It seems like members of the same household, with the husband/father as the head, properly mirrors the relationship we are to have with God.

But here is a question for the fellas: Assuming that the woman in question DOES have a clear, non-abusive authority figure in her life, (a father or, in his absence, a mother or other close male relative who fills the role,) but she's willing to flout their authority to have her own way by marrying you without their permission and blessing, why would you WANT her?

Take your TP out of the mix for the moment (Testosterone Poisoning :lol: ). Along with the flattery you feel, that she chooses YOU over her family. Leaves you kinda flat? Excellent! Now ask yourself ...

"If she's willing to flout the clear authority in her existing life to get her own way, then what in the lacy blue blazes makes me think that she'll bow and submit to authority in OUR life together? Won't she, more likely, by gum and by jiminy get her own way regardless of what I say?" Don't expect to be pleased with the answer.

In my experience, this is a very practical concern today. I've seen this truth bear out all too often. In most cases where a daughter did not respect and/or obey her father's wishes, she ended up not respecting/obeying her husband's wishes either. Through hard work and discipline, a wife could eventually learn to submit to her husband, but it's exceedingly difficult in our culture and absolutely impossible without Him first changing the heart-condition. Yet a woman who was raised to honor and obey her father from a young age will find the "transfer" of authority to be part of the natural progression from childhood to adulthood; from father to husband. The one who insists on obtaining the blessing and approval of her Godly father is the one you want to snatch up!

Men, if you want to know how your prospective wife will treat you, just look to see how she treats her father. Women, if you want to see how your prospective husband will treat you, look to see how he treats his mother. It may seem overly simplistic, but it is most often true. Behavior and attitudes are not learned overnight. I also believe God will greatly bless a union where His proper authority is both humbly recognized and submitted to.

Hudson Taylor, a seriously great missionary to China, (since someone brought up Nanking,) gives us a better example, IMO. He met his beloved IN China, where they were both serving. Her father or guardian (I disremember the detail) was in England. He wrote requesting her hand and was refused. Truth to tell, said guardian couldn't have done much about it had Hudson and his intended gone ahead. Instead, they joined in prayer that God would bring about the necessary permission, if it was His will. Took a year and a half, but it WAS eventually granted, and their union was truly blessed, as was their mission.

Excellent example, Cecil!

In His love,
David

 

[CecilW]

Thank you, David.

Let's take it one step further.

Guys, if YOU insist on obtaining the approval of her father or other appropriate authority, whether SHE signals readiness to ignore it or not, what will be the result?

YOU have just stated by your actions, which speak MUCH louder than your words, your respect for proper authority.

Will the message get through? That you will expect it in your own family? I would guess so! She will then have to decide whether or not to marry a man who will take such things seriously -- rather than marrying one who merely gives them lip service.

Besides, do YOU wanna hear, for 50 long years of marriage, every time you try to exercise authority in your home, "Why SHOULD I respect YOUR authority over me? You didn't respect Daddy's! *sniff, sniff* *a crocodile tear or two*" *shudder* MIGHT be better to follow the Godlu Order plan ...

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

What do you do when the proper and lawful AUTHORITY for the girl says no?

i agree with you about proper authority. i was being a little light-hearted there.
ok, if the girl is, say, 16 to 18. (btw: i am not going to consider courting her) she is definitely under her fathers authority. even if he is not a believer she is legally under his authority.
between 18 and 21. (again, i will not court her) at this age in this society she is reaching the age of her majority. if the father says no at 19, ask him what he would like to see in you and then both of you grow for a couple more years. if he is still saying no at 21, you have some serious issues to resolve. it may be that you are the problem (that 4th DWI did not help )
outside of islam, the odds that you are going to run into a father who believes that he has the right to say no to a choice that his 21+ daughter has made is so small that i do not see the value of discussing it. but if it happens, as david said, work it out. if she is worth it, then value her and do what it takes. alienating your childrens grandfather is not a good start, even if he is not completely reasonable.
remember: act in haste, repent for a long time

Although the ages are good to follow for the purpose of not getting thrown in jail by a NON-Christian U.S. government. I have never seen any minimum ages mentioned anywhere in the Bible!

That being said I would not go around talking to people under 18, in the U.S. as it is today. Because it is so easy for innocent people to get thrown in jail by a bunch of "tolerant" hate monger liberals.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Thank you, David.

Let's take it one step further.

Guys, if YOU insist on obtaining the approval of her father or other appropriate authority, whether SHE signals readiness to ignore it or not, what will be the result?

YOU have just stated by your actions, which speak MUCH louder than your words, your respect for proper authority.

Will the message get through? That you will expect it in your own family? I would guess so! She will then have to decide whether or not to marry a man who will take such things seriously -- rather than marrying one who merely gives them lip service.

Besides, do YOU wanna hear, for 50 long years of marriage, every time you try to exercise authority in your home, "Why SHOULD I respect YOUR authority over me? You didn't respect Daddy's! *sniff, sniff* *a crocodile tear or two*" *shudder* MIGHT be better to follow the Godlu Order plan ...

What if your message is that you are the proper authority and her father is not? How can a parent who leads her to make unethical decisions be a proper authority?

I have not actually studied Bonhoeffer's writings but from what I have heard.... Where others said that you should obey Germany during WWII because of Romans 13, Dietrich Bonhoeffer concluded that he did not have to obey the German government because the government was NOT a proper authority according to Romans 13 since they were not properly administrating justice.

I would suggest that some parent's are proper authorities for who there daughter can marry and some are not. It depends on how they use this authority especially in regards to their daughters marriage.

 

[Anonymous]

ok, if the girl is, say, 16 to 18. (btw: i am not going to consider courting her) she is definitely under her fathers authority. even if he is not a believer she is legally under his authority.
between 18 and 21. (again, i will not court her) at this age in this society she is reaching the age of her majority. if the father says no at 19, ask him what he would like to see in you and then both of you grow for a couple more years. if he is still saying no at 21, you have some serious issues to resolve.

Although the ages are good to follow for the purpose of not getting thrown in jail by a NON-Christian U.S. government. I have never seen any minimum ages mentioned anywhere in the Bible!

That being said I would not go around talking to people under 18, in the U.S. as it is today. Because it is so easy for innocent people to get thrown in jail by a bunch of "tolerant" hate monger liberals.

Well, in a culture where the father's permission was assumed by all, any age requirement would have been determined by him. A father might have allowed his 16-year-old daughter to marry, while not allowing another 21-year-old daughter to marry yet. Who knows better than the father when his daughters are ready for marriage? That's another reason why the father was required to "give" her away. There was no need for an express minimum/maximum age limit for marriage in Scripture, because the marriageable age would have been obvious to him. It would be different in each situation.

In our own culture, a 21+ woman would likely be out of her father's house anyway, but in the unlikely event that she was still living under her father's house and rules, one should still seek his permission to take his daughter as a wife. Substitute "father" with whomever is her proper authority, where applicable.

Perhaps if her parents have a bad influence on her, it is better that she marries you since you are the only person you know who has a good influence, even if the parents do not want you to marry her. If for example her parents are Satanist's who do human sacrifice and they do not want their daughter to marry a Christian I think it would be fine to disregard them and marry their daughter.

Are these example satanists aware they have the final say over their daughter or no? I don't think a Believer should deliberately attempt to circumvent the proper familial authority structure, no matter what their personal beliefs (or non-beliefs) happen to be.

In His love,
David

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Perhaps if her parents have a bad influence on her, it is better that she marries you since you are the only person you know who has a good influence, even if the parents do not want you to marry her. If for example her parents are Satanist's who do human sacrifice and they do not want their daughter to marry a Christian I think it would be fine to disregard them and marry their daughter.

Are these example satanists aware they have the final say over their daughter or no? I don't think a Believer should deliberately attempt to circumvent the proper familial authority structure, no matter what their personal beliefs (or non-beliefs) happen to be.

In His love,
David[/quote]

So if the parents want to use their daughter as a prostitute to make cash on the side and allowing you to marry her would interfere with the parents side business. You would just let them use their daughter as a prostitute instead of allowing her to run away and live married to you where she does not have to be a prostitute?

(Prostitution is legal in some countries and some daughters would just obey their parents if this was requested in some of the same countries and the government would not interfere if you reported them because it is legal in these Non-Christian countries.)

Should you and her respect the government and her parents as proper authorities in such a case? Or should you and her run away from her parents and live a moral life?

 

[Anonymous]

If for example her parents are Satanist's who do human sacrifice and they do not want their daughter to marry a Christian I think it would be fine to disregard them and marry their daughter.

Are these example satanists aware they have the final say over their daughter or no? I don't think a Believer should deliberately attempt to circumvent the proper familial authority structure, no matter what their personal beliefs (or non-beliefs) happen to be.

So if the parents want to use their daughter as a prostitute to make cash on the side and allowing you to marry her would interfere with the parents side business. You would just let them use their daughter as a prostitute instead of allowing her to run away and live married to you where she does not have to be a prostitute?

Should you and her respect the government and her parents as proper authorities in such a case? Or should you and her run away from her parents and live a moral life?

Well, in this second case, the daughter is being instructed to sin. We'll assume she already understands this is sin. That's different than merely being born to satanists. Higher law applies, so she is not obligated (or supposed) to obey her father WHERE OBEDIENCE TO HER PARENTS WOULD BE DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. However, that does not then mean that she is free to disobey her father in all other things he says as well. She can refuse prostitution while also obeying her father with respect to not marrying a particular man. Her choice is always to SIN or NOT SIN. If she engages in prostitution, she sins. If she rebels against her proper authority and marries the man against her father's direct prohibition, she sins. If she obeys her father regarding the marriage while also avoiding the prostitution, she does not sin. God's law does NOT require or permit a man to steal another man's daughter in some misguided attempt to help her avoid committing sin. She has the free will to sin or obey as she chooses.

As for what I personally would do (since I make good money in my profession), I would determine the likely income of her prostitution over X years and would attempt to REDEEM her for myself by paying off dear ol' dad. This would satisfy the financial requirements of her parents while enabling me to take her as my wife lawfully. I obey the parents, the government and God while respecting the proper familial authority chain of command.

In His love,
David

 

[steve]

some pretty interesting discussion her, fellers. there is so much good stuff that i will not coment on it all.

however, i will say this to dr allen;
you have attempted to prove that pretty much everyone and any one has the authority in a girls life and that the exceptions prove that rules really are not a good thing to follow unless administered by the elders.
i look forward to your teachings on what authority the husbands actualy have over their wives and children

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

It is very simple Steve, the bible says a man (husband) has authority over his woman the (wife). Also, if a woman has a question about doctrine she is to ask her husband at home.

Literal hermeneutics yields very clear distinctions. The examples about who has authority over a virgin is numerous, over who has authority over a wife is singular.

And I agree that how a woman treats her authority figures in her life will be a sign of her maturity in the Lord, just like how a man submits to his spiritual leaders, such as elders over him that he has voluntarily chosen to submit himself to shows his maturity. It is a general rule across the board that how one treats authority figures is how they view God's authority.

Certainly, if a father is the authority over a girl's life then she should be in submission to him. That is the norm. But the Bible is also a comprehensive book that gives other guidelines for other circumstances. I'm just giving the fuller picture about the subject.

Dr. Allen

 

[steve]

thank you dr allen,
it is a relief to know that the eldership does not have the authority.
but, hold on a sec

but to tell a Christian woman who is under godly elders (a new set of spiritual authorities over her) to go back to her abusive, drug headed, pagan physical father to let him guide her........

if we susbstitute "husband" for "physical father" does he still have all of the authority?

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Steve, that was my point about literal hermeneutics. We can't alter here, substitute a word there, or adjust this word for that word. Do you see what I am saying? Literal hermeneutics means we go back to the text and let it be the ultimate guide with the words properly defined in the actual historical context it was written. This is so because we affirm verbal plenary inspiration, i.e. each and every word of the Bible is supernaturally inspired and chosen to be precise by the omniscient God. If we apply that golden rule to the unmarried woman then we have several examples of others giving a lady away unto a marriage.

But, when looking at the text of Scripture do you ever find someone other than the husband with authority over the wife? I can't think of any mere humans who would have a higher position over the woman of a man. And that was my point.

I use also the word mere because the God-man, Jesus Christ, would have a higher authority over the husband because the Bible states he has all authority in heaven and on earth. Thus a man's rule is a delegated rule over his wife. We would never say that a man has more authority than Christ, the God-man.

So maybe I am missing something but again it seems straight forward to me. There are examples and clear patterns of others who govern the unmarried woman but few if any that I can think of that speak of another governing a woman underneath her man/head. That is why the term "head" is used in the NT to describe this relationship. To what other human head should the body (lady) follow? But when looking through the Bible I never find the Bible calling a father or any other person the head of an unmarried woman. Authority figure? Yes! There are several: a father, brothers, extended relative, an elder or elders, another woman. But are they heads of the unmarried woman? No! Only the man that the lady becomes one flesh with becomes the head of the lady.

If I am misunderstanding your question then by all means restate it and I'll try again.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

So you ask. The person who has the authority (whomever that is) says no. Then what do you do?

So usually if the father is a Muslim, or Hindu or atheist, etc. the man can marry the woman without his permission.

Now if you are convinced that her father is not a christian even though he says he is, you can count him as not a Christian.

So then if he is not genetically or nationally an Israelite, you can marry the woman without the father's permission.

:shock: So, if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that a Christian man can really take any girl he wants, irrespective of her father's permission. Since Scripture demonstrates the authority that a father has over his daughter is the same form of authority that a husband has over his wife, I wonder if Joseph was wrong in not laying with Potipher's wife. After all, Potipher was certainly not a physical descendant of Jacob, so if we can steal his daughter, surely we can steal his wife too.

In His love,
David

If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
Deuteronomy 22:22 NIV

If the authority a father has over his daughter was always exactly the same as a husband over his wife then....

" 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
Leviticus 18:17 NIV

So the rules for a father and daughter are different from the rules for a husband and daughter.

Besides where does it say "the authority that a father has over his daughter is the same form of authority that a husband has over his wife,"

Just because it is similar in some cases does not mean that it is the same in all cases.

Correlation does not prove causation.

Furthermore, 100% correlation of outputs for two different functions, over a specific range of inputs does not mean the two function will have 100% correlation of outputs over a different range of inputs.

if F(A,B)=C and G(D,B)=C

that does NOT mean that

F(E,B)=G(H,B)

Oh and by the way, you might not have quoted all the details of what I wrote. Which sometimes is fine, but might have made a difference in this case.

 

[Isabella]

Who knows better than the father when his daughters are ready for marriage?

Her mother?

Just a thought....

Perhaps if her parents have a bad influence on her, it is better that she marries you since you are the only person you know who has a good influence, even if the parents do not want you to marry her. If for example her parents are Satanist's who do human sacrifice and they do not want their daughter to marry a Christian I think it would be fine to disregard them and marry their daughter.

Are these example satanists aware they have the final say over their daughter or no? I don't think a Believer should deliberately attempt to circumvent the proper familial authority structure, no matter what their personal beliefs (or non-beliefs) happen to be.

In His love,
David

Besides, those Satanists are wily, she might not love you, she just wants a man to sacrifice....haven't you seen The Wicker Man???


Bels