Does anything ever change with God?

[sicouple]

Hello everyone, I was thinking about God and how consistent he is all throughout the Bible. Methods changed for forgiveness thus the penalty for sins changed some but off the top of my head I can't think of any commandments or laws of God that ever changed or ever became OK with different ages.. Can you think of any such cases? We hear a lot about how this or that was for another time and its different in our age. Well God don't change, people change and it seems to me, man has taken it upon themselves to change God's laws to better suit them.

I guess what I'm asking is if anyone can think of something God said was sin or wrong and then retracted the law and allowed it..? If you think of something, anything, please post the scriptures that state the law and then the change..

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Methods changed for forgiveness

In many aspects I highly disagree with that.

People were not forgiven through the animal sacrifice system in my opinion. The animal sacrifice system was more of a literal action, with a symbolic lesson set of lessons about sin, death, forgiveness, love, life etc. than a literal method of forgiveness in my opinion.

From the beginning God choose Jesus death and resurrection as the means to forgive people even before he died and rose from the dead. Perhaps because there was no other way on the account of the law of non-contradiction or perhaps instead because that is the way God choose and God could have choose another way, but did not.

Generally people have always had the requirement of choosing to have the proper type of friendship with Jesus as the requirement for forgiveness in my opinion. Even if the means is available the requirement must be met, in order for the means to be effective.

Abraham was saved by no different a gospel than Apostle Paul was saved on as I understand scripture.

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 NIV 2011

off the top of my head I can't think of any commandments or laws of God that ever changed or ever became OK with different ages.. Can you think of any such cases?

No.... The gospel was always the same but the fine details of the law were constantly changing. But the big picture of the law was the same.

The law simply is a way to show what God wants from us. What God wants in one situation is different than another.

Obeying the law is about our relationship with God, failure to obey God shows our need for forgiveness in order to maintain a relationship with God.

The law and gospel our about having a relationship with God. But the law is the specifics about how to love God in different situations, where the gospel is simply about how God offers love to us and will help us to keep the law and be forgiven for failure to keep the law. That is why the law changes all the time in fine details (while retaining a certain general core) but the gospel never changes in my opinion.

If a Perfect husband married an imperfect woman

How the woman should love the man may change every day in some respects (while keeping a certain general core) this would analogous to the law and would be changing in nature (while keeping a general core.) For instance he might command his wife to do different things on different days. What the woman is commanded to do would be what is best for her because she would be married to a perfect husband, so his commands would be loving to give. Because what is best for her to do from day to day would be different the law would be changing in nature.

That the woman be forgiven for failure to do what her husband says by her husband and that her husband can act lovingly enough toward her to help her to do what she is told would be the same every day that would be analogous to the gospel and would be unchanging in nature. Even though forgiveness might be practically offered on a daily basis, if she goes and decides to live elsewhere the forgiveness would be practically available but chosenly ineffective.

Does this make sense?

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I guess what I'm asking is if anyone can think of something God said was sin or wrong and then retracted the law and allowed it..? If you think of something, anything, please post the scriptures that state the law and then the change..

Muslism criticize Christians for changing laws in the new testament where as Muslims change even more laws, whenever Muhammad wants to do something. The Quran is full of abrogations in which Muhammad said one thing was God's rule and then later something else that would seem to be contradictory to some people if it was not abrogated or changed. And anti-messianic Jews criticize Christians for changing laws in the new testament. But actually when Moses gave his laws, he added a bunch of laws that were not there in Genesis or were there during that time period but unwritten.

Example
1. Who did Adam and Eve's descendants marry, compare with Leviticus 18 and 20
2. Compare Genesis 9:3 NIV 2011, "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. " with dietary laws given by Moses.
3. God told Joshua to violate the Sabbath when he told him to march for seven days, as it is written in Joshua 6:4 NIV 2011 "Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets." Seven consecutive days include a week and one day of the week is a Sabbath.

These are all "changes" in the old testament although example 3 was a very temporary change if you call it a change instead of an exception.

Examples 1 through 3 were all from the old testament, creating a serious obstacle for the claims above from self professed anti-messianic Jews if it were not for their ability to twist scriptures and or doublethink.

 

[sicouple]

Methods changed for forgiveness

In many aspects I highly disagree with that.

People were not forgiven through the animal sacrifice system in my opinion. The animal sacrifice system was more of a literal action, with a symbolic lesson set of lessons about sin, death, forgiveness, love, life etc. than a literal method of forgiveness in my opinion.

From the beginning God choose Jesus death and resurrection as the means to forgive people even before he died and rose from the dead. Perhaps because there was no other way on the account of the law of non-contradiction or perhaps instead because that is the way God choose and God could have choose another way, but did not.

Generally people have always had the requirement of choosing to have the proper type of friendship with Jesus as the requirement for forgiveness in my opinion. Even if the means is available the requirement must be met, in order for the means to be effective.

Abraham was saved by no different a gospel than Apostle Paul was saved on as I understand scripture.

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 NIV 2011

I agree in the sense that there is only 1 living God that can save, so regardless of the sacrifice or the way one shows his true heart for God it's the same commandment that saves everyone.. "I am the Lord they God, though shalt have no other Gods before me" or "Love God with all they heart mind and soul" If that commandment holds true for someone then they "WILL" seek out Gods order so they can learn to follow it.

I just wanted to add that Abraham had faith and because of his faith he was chosen. Paul was given grace and able to be converted because of Abraham's faith and the promises made to him by God because of that faith.

off the top of my head I can't think of any commandments or laws of God that ever changed or ever became OK with different ages.. Can you think of any such cases?

No.... The gospel was always the same but the fine details of the law were constantly changing. But the big picture of the law was the same.

The law simply is a way to show what God wants from us. What God wants in one situation is different than another.

Obeying the law is about our relationship with God, failure to obey God shows our need for forgiveness in order to maintain a relationship with God.

The law and gospel our about having a relationship with God. But the law is the specifics about how to love God in different situations, where the gospel is simply about how God offers love to us and will help us to keep the law and be forgiven for failure to keep the law. That is why the law changes all the time in fine details (while retaining a certain general core) but the gospel never changes in my opinion.

If a Perfect husband married an imperfect woman

How the woman should love the man may change every day in some respects (while keeping a certain general core) this would analogous to the law and would be changing in nature (while keeping a general core.) For instance he might command his wife to do different things on different days. What the woman is commanded to do would be what is best for her because she would be married to a perfect husband, so his commands would be loving to give. Because what is best for her to do from day to day would be different the law would be changing in nature.

That the woman be forgiven for failure to do what her husband says by her husband and that her husband can act lovingly enough toward her to help her to do what she is told would be the same every day that would be analogous to the gospel and would be unchanging in nature. Even though forgiveness might be practically offered on a daily basis, if she goes and decides to live elsewhere the forgiveness would be practically available but chosenly ineffective.

Does this make sense?

If the husband was perfect (as God is) he wouldn't change his laws "every" day because any laws he passed would be perfect.. He may have different laws that the wife do for each day of the week but the perfect laws would remain in place and he would never pass a new law for any of those days that contradicted the first law or it would have to be said the laws he passed were not perfect and needed to be changed, thus making the husband no longer perfect.

 

[sicouple]

I guess what I'm asking is if anyone can think of something God said was sin or wrong and then retracted the law and allowed it..? If you think of something, anything, please post the scriptures that state the law and then the change..

Muslism criticize Christians for changing laws in the new testament where as Muslims change even more laws, whenever Muhammad wants to do something. The Quran is full of abrogations in which Muhammad said one thing was God's rule and then later something else that would seem to be contradictory to some people if it was not abrogated or changed. And anti-messianic Jews criticize Christians for changing laws in the new testament. But actually when Moses gave his laws, he added a bunch of laws that were not there in Genesis or were there during that time period but unwritten.

Example
1. Who did Adam and Eve's descendants marry, compare with Leviticus 18 and 20
2. Compare Genesis 9:3 NIV 2011, "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. " with dietary laws given by Moses.
3. God told Joshua to violate the Sabbath when he told him to march for seven days, as it is written in Joshua 6:4 NIV 2011 "Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets." Seven consecutive days include a week and one day of the week is a Sabbath.

These are all "changes" in the old testament although example 3 was a very temporary change if you call it a change instead of an exception.

Examples 1 through 3 were all from the old testament, creating a serious obstacle for the claims above from self professed anti-messianic Jews if it were not for their ability to twist scriptures and or doublethink.

I think there obviously was a lot of misunderstanding in regards to the sabbath as Christ pointed out.. The sabbath was created for men, men were not created for the sabbath.. Christ wasn't changing anything in regards to what the sabbath was, he was merely pointing out the purpose of it all along from the time it was created and the reason it was created.

It wasn't a commandment to eat "Everything that lives and moves about" Just that they could.. Later there was food laws put in place that dis allowed some of the previous everything but there was no contradicting laws given there

The Bible does not say who Adams descendants produced children with.. Everything that is taught about that is assumptions based on the rest of the Bible.. The laws of the 1st covenant took affect when the covenant did which was obviously after anything Adams descendants did. Just like the 2nd covenant which brought a means of forgiveness (The Holy Spirit) for braking the 1st, didn't take affect until after Christ (The Lamb) was slain. His blood covered everyone future and past, where fault was found for braking the 1st covenant but that grace was not given until after He paid the price and the covenant took affect. It is my experience that any and all contradictions found in Gods laws lay at the fault of men, such as translation errors and changes in meaning of words with time

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

If the husband was perfect (as God is) he wouldn't change his laws "every" day because any laws he passed would be perfect.. He may have different laws that the wife do for each day of the week but the perfect laws would remain in place and he would never pass a new law for any of those days that contradicted the first law or it would have to be said the laws he passed were not perfect and needed to be changed, thus making the husband no longer perfect.

What is good for his wife in one set of circumstances may not be good in another set of circumstances.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

It is my experience that any and all contradictions found in Gods laws lay at the fault of men, such as translation errors and changes in meaning of words with time

I was not trying to say that the law is contradictory. I am trying to say that it is contradictory if you have exactly the same rules at every point in time (unless the rules are argued to be the same but contain a function of time....) but since the rules change as a function of time or are the same but contain a function of time they are non-contradictory.

What God expects someone to do 1 minute after the creation of humans, is different than his policies 50 years after creation of humans which is different than his policies after Moses which is different than his policies 100 years after Jesus rose from the dead. His policies are the same in many general points, but the fine details are different.

 

[sicouple]

If the husband was perfect (as God is) he wouldn't change his laws "every" day because any laws he passed would be perfect.. He may have different laws that the wife do for each day of the week but the perfect laws would remain in place and he would never pass a new law for any of those days that contradicted the first law or it would have to be said the laws he passed were not perfect and needed to be changed, thus making the husband no longer perfect.

What is good for his wife in one set of circumstances may not be good in another set of circumstances.

I know what your saying and really wasn't trying to disagree just clarifying I guess.. If the circumstances are different then there would be rules on what to do with those circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is that, people want to believe that as people changed Gods laws changed to better suit the circumstances of the people. This is how people justify not following Gods word.. the truth is that if man changed to where they can no longer follow Gods word there would be no new laws.. The change man made would be wrong and as Scripture explains with countless examples, God would call men back to the way it should be so they can follow His laws. In other words, we were created for God. God was not created for us.

We have to please him and therefore if we were doing that we wouldn't established traditions that made it hard for us to be what he created us to be. In the end it hurts us.. We can make changes and not trust God but all we have to do is look around the world and its clear God was right. all the changes man makes to Gods laws and plans do is make life harder on ourselves. For instance how many men that were called to PM have been put in a position to choose between the 2 God planned for him to be with? There is no right choice! Those that chose the 2nd and left the 1st or had the 1st leave them because they allowed the lies to run abundant in their house went through hell because of the circumstance they put themselves in. Men have asked me. If I truly believe I am supposed to be with both, what am I to do in these "circumstances"? The only thing they can do is get out of those circumstances! Get the lies out of their house! You can't put yourself in a position to choose between 1 of 2 sins and then seriously expect God is going to give you instruction on what sin to commit. I have seen men leave or be left by 1 wife he had kids with so he could marry and take on another wife who had kids that was in need.. How does that make sense? The very reason he felt to help solve a problem created the same exact problem. I know God would not have instructed him to leave his wife. Does that mean God told him to not marry the 2nd wife? no it doesn't but that seemed to be the only choices he had because of the circumstances he put himself in. He bound himself to something that kept him from being able to serve the Lord. The only instruction could be to get yourself out of those circumstances. Ask the Father for help and then set out on the sometimes long journey of helping your first wife find the truth!

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I know what your saying and really wasn't trying to disagree just clarifying I guess.. If the circumstances are different then there would be rules on what to do with those circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is that, people want to believe that as people changed Gods laws changed to better suit the circumstances of the people. This is how people justify not following Gods word.. the truth is that if man changed to where they can no longer follow Gods word there would be no new laws.. The change man made would be wrong and as Scripture explains with countless examples, God would call men back to the way it should be so they can follow His laws. In other words, we were created for God. God was not created for us.

Well I guess that makes sense. But God can still change his laws or make laws that's application involve a function of time depending on how you view it. But man cannot makes God's law be _____ by just deciding I want God's law to be ___ now instead of _____, unless of course God decides to permit it to operate that way, but God can always (and often does) decide to not allow it to operate that way.

 

[sicouple]

I know what your saying and really wasn't trying to disagree just clarifying I guess.. If the circumstances are different then there would be rules on what to do with those circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is that, people want to believe that as people changed Gods laws changed to better suit the circumstances of the people. This is how people justify not following Gods word.. the truth is that if man changed to where they can no longer follow Gods word there would be no new laws.. The change man made would be wrong and as Scripture explains with countless examples, God would call men back to the way it should be so they can follow His laws. In other words, we were created for God. God was not created for us.

Well I guess that makes sense. But God can still change his laws or make laws that's application involve a function of time depending on how you view it. But man cannot makes God's law be _____ by just deciding I want God's law to be ___ now instead of _____, unless of course God decides to permit it to operate that way, but God can always (and often does) decide to not allow it to operate that way.

Being God He can do anything He wants! lol But His word is that He is fair and just. He may not ask the same thing from all, such as what he asked Abraham to do as a showing of his faith but His Laws He set in place for all to follow don't change. He grants grace to whom He sees fit that brake them but the very fact grace is even needed is a clear indication the Laws were in place or they couldn't have even been broke.

As I said in the OP, I can't think of 1 law that was ever "changed" He adds to and explains the Laws that are in place so man can better follow them but when has he ever found enough imperfection in His Laws that he has changed it?

 

[Mark C]

The character of YHVH (the concept behind what "His Name" really means) does not change. (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8, et al)

His "torah" (Hebrew for "instruction" or "teaching") does not change, and will not -- so long as "heaven and earth" still exist.* And His faithfulness to His Covenants, and His promises, doesn't change. (Seen a rainbow lately?)

As for some of the silly examples I see above (like the "Lord of the Sabbath" somehow violating His own instruction) I will simply suggest that the failure to understand His Word is not a result of His failure to Write it or teach it correctly.


A major point of Scripture is that man is SUPPOSED to change! Otherwise, why not just kill Adam and Eve right there in the Garden?!!!

His character does not change. The "rules for His house" haven't changed. When He offered the marriage covenant at Sinai, only one guess who failed to honor the agreement. And guess who needs to get "cleaned up" and learn to be obedient to His oh-so-consistent teaching if they would like to be a future bride?







------------------------------
* Matt. 5:17-19, etc.

Some wag once claimed that Satan's most brilliant deception was teaching people he doesn't exist. Wrong! It was convincing a fallen "church" that YHVH cannot be trusted to keep His own Written Word!

A particularly nasty and deceptive trick of the Adversary has been getting so many gullible folks who tickle itching ears (and the lawyers and true "legalists" who teach that the "law -- like the Constitution -- has been done away with") to believe that the Hebrew concept of "torah" only means "law". All the better to deceive you into thinking that He is a double-minded liar, and didn't Write it down for a reason!

 

[sicouple]

The character of YHVH (the concept behind what "His Name" really means) does not change. (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8, et al)

His "torah" (Hebrew for "instruction" or "teaching") does not change, and will not -- so long as "heaven and earth" still exist.* And His faithfulness to His Covenants, and His promises, doesn't change. (Seen a rainbow lately?)

As for some of the silly examples I see above (like the "Lord of the Sabbath" somehow violating His own instruction) I will simply suggest that the failure to understand His Word is not a result of His failure to Write it or teach it correctly.


A major point of Scripture is that man is SUPPOSED to change! Otherwise, why not just kill Adam and Eve right there in the Garden?!!!

His character does not change. The "rules for His house" haven't changed. When He offered the marriage covenant at Sinai, only one guess who failed to honor the agreement. And guess who needs to get "cleaned up" and learn to be obedient to His oh-so-consistent teaching if they would like to be a future bride?



------------------------------
* Matt. 5:17-19, etc.

Some wag once claimed that Satan's most brilliant deception was teaching people he doesn't exist. Wrong! It was convincing a fallen "church" that YHVH cannot be trusted to keep His own Written Word!

A particularly nasty and deceptive trick of the Adversary has been getting so many gullible folks who tickle itching ears (and the lawyers and true "legalists" who teach that the "law -- like the Constitution -- has been done away with") to believe that the Hebrew concept of "torah" only means "law". All the better to deceive you into thinking that He is a double-minded liar, and didn't Write it down for a reason!

I couldn't agree more Mark.. Great post!

Perfection is perfect.. Mans imperfection is shown in that we don't follow Gods perfect laws.. If those laws changed to better suit us imperfect men, then the laws would be imperfect.. I guess one could say the new laws would be better then nothing but is that the God we serve? Certainly not the God I serve.. He is perfect! If man can't follow His laws it is because of our imperfection not because of any imperfection in Him or His laws.

We have to change to be what God intended us to be.. God does not change because we don't want to be what He intended us to be.. That notion is actually rather silly. If the world revolves around men and God changes laws to better suit those men then the men are their own Gods because they are following their own laws.