Fellowship with other believers

[RealmUncertain]

So I recently read the statement of faith of the messianic Jewish community I started attending this year.
They have a section on sexuality which goes thus

We believe that God wonderfully and immutably creates each person as distinctly male or female, which together reflect the image and nature of God (Genesis 1:26-27).
God's design for marriage is the single, exclusive union of one man and one woman and is the vehicle by which sexual intimacy is kept sacred (Genesis 2:18-25).

Any form of sexual immorality or perversion, including adultery, polyamory, fornication, homosexual behavior, incest, use of pornography, and self-identifying outside of God's created sexual distinction is a sin against God. Repentance of these actions is required to restore one's relationship with God.

I was kicked out of the last church I was attending quite unceremoniously because I started to share a few things I was seeing in the scriptures regarding marriage and sexuality. The core idea I was sharing was that the Bible does not seem to treat male and female the same when it comes to the issues of marriage and sexuality.

I was also going through several struggles in my faith at this time, basically I was having a difficult time deciding which direction to look when it comes to the scriptures.
Here is a summary of some of the thoughts I was struggling with.

1. Weather to discard with the Old Testament and assume God started a completely New thing with Jesus.
2. Weather to discard with the Old Testament on the basis that God was just working within the cultural context of the time. And with Jesus he is working within a new cultural context.
3. Embrace the Old Testament fully as a pointer to how God intended to structure his society. And as such read the New Testament through the lenses of the Old. And struggle through whatever contradictions that seems to arise.

It was a very difficult time for me. And frankly one of the reason I did no discard my trust in Jesus completely was just the share stubbornness of my own personality.
Lots of things happened during this period, but I started to see a few things.

- Option 1 is quite untenable, because without the Old Testament it is really difficult to make a case for Jesus. And without the Law of Moses we just end up creating new laws, some of them more legalistic that the laws on Moses.
- Option 2 is the wild wild west because it means we have to adjust every time culture changes.

I ended up deciding to go with option 3. I made a few personal decisions.
1 - I will surrender to the mystery i.e. I will give up the need to have everything neat and tidy and well defined in my understanding.
2 - I will no go beyond what is written. i.e. If the Bible says something about an issue then so be it, if it does not then I won't die on that hill.
3 - I will let people take their chance with God i.e. It is not my job to tell people whether or not God accepts them. I can tell them what I honestly see in the Bible, but in the end let everyone come to God the way they are, and let it be up to God to turn them away if he chooses.

One of the fallout from my crisis of belief was this issue of marriage. I came to the conclusion that the conventional christian doctrine on marriage and sexuality was hanging on one misinterpreted passage from Genesis 2:18-25. It is literally the witness of one verse against the witness of the rest of the scriptures. I decided after my unceremonious left foot of fellowship that I will not give my time or efforts to any Church that has this as a doctrine again.

Anyhow it seems that my decision has left me without a community. I don't think I want to continue attending my messianic Jewish community. What's point of building fellowship with people who will kick you out once they discover what you belief.

I am now convinced that the only way forward if a family church. Me my wife (or wives if God blesses me) and kids.

I wonder how others have dealt with periods of being with no christian community.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

So I recently read the statement of faith of the messianic Jewish community I started attending this year.
They have a section on sexuality which goes thus

We believe that God wonderfully and immutably creates each person as distinctly male or female, which together reflect the image and nature of God (Genesis 1:26-27).
God's design for marriage is the single, exclusive union of one man and one woman and is the vehicle by which sexual intimacy is kept sacred (Genesis 2:18-25).

Any form of sexual immorality or perversion, including adultery, polyamory, fornication, homosexual behavior, incest, use of pornography, and self-identifying outside of God's created sexual distinction is a sin against God. Repentance of these actions is required to restore one's relationship with God.

I was kicked out of the last church I was attending quite unceremoniously because I started to share a few things I was seeing in the scriptures regarding marriage and sexuality. The core idea I was sharing was that the Bible does not seem to treat male and female the same when it comes to the issues of marriage and sexuality.

I was also going through several struggles in my faith at this time, basically I was having a difficult time deciding which direction to look when it comes to the scriptures.
Here is a summary of some of the thoughts I was struggling with.

1. Weather to discard with the Old Testament and assume God started a completely New thing with Jesus.
2. Weather to discard with the Old Testament on the basis that God was just working within the cultural context of the time. And with Jesus he is working within a new cultural context.
3. Embrace the Old Testament fully as a pointer to how God intended to structure his society. And as such read the New Testament through the lenses of the Old. And struggle through whatever contradictions that seems to arise.

It was a very difficult time for me. And frankly one of the reason I did no discard my trust in Jesus completely was just the share stubbornness of my own personality.
Lots of things happened during this period, but I started to see a few things.

- Option 1 is quite untenable, because without the Old Testament it is really difficult to make a case for Jesus. And without the Law of Moses we just end up creating new laws, some of them more legalistic that the laws on Moses.
- Option 2 is the wild wild west because it means we have to adjust every time culture changes.

I ended up deciding to go with option 3. I made a few personal decisions.
1 - I will surrender to the mystery i.e. I will give up the need to have everything neat and tidy and well defined in my understanding.
2 - I will no go beyond what is written. i.e. If the Bible says something about an issue then so be it, if it does not then I won't die on that hill.
3 - I will let people take their chance with God i.e. It is not my job to tell people whether or not God accepts them. I can tell them what I honestly see in the Bible, but in the end let everyone come to God the way they are, and let it be up to God to turn them away if he chooses.

One of the fallout from my crisis of belief was this issue of marriage. I came to the conclusion that the conventional christian doctrine on marriage and sexuality was hanging on one misinterpreted passage from Genesis 2:18-25. It is literally the witness of one verse against the witness of the rest of the scriptures. I decided after my unceremonious left foot of fellowship that I will not give my time or efforts to any Church that has this as a doctrine again.

Anyhow it seems that my decision has left me without a community. I don't think I want to continue attending my messianic Jewish community. What's point of building fellowship with people who will kick you out once they discover what you belief.

I am now convinced that the only way forward if a family church. Me my wife (or wives if God blesses me) and kids.

I wonder how others have dealt with periods of being with no christian community.

Pete Rambo has a fellowship finder on his website for those that are walking out the biblical marriage the way God intended it. Patriarchy and his wife or wives and then children follow....

 

[Mojo]

Yes, your struggle is one that is real for many on this forum.

You’ll find differing opinions. Mine is just one of many.

I believe that fellowship with the brethren is an essential aspect of the spiritual life and connection with Christ. It’s a synergy that can’t be explained. Even when away from home on vacation or on business, I try to attend a small community of believers.

My fellowship allows me to teach from time to time. Because biblical marriage is literally EVERYWHERE in scripture, I’ve had to teach portions of scripture that include polygyny. I’m very open about not dancing around it and explaining that God never outlawed it. I was so explicit in it regarding the narrative with David and Bathsheba that it warranted a “clarification” by the minister the following week about “ideals”, etc. It didn’t bother me because my presentation was very thorough and people heard sound exegesis.

It’s up to you. Polygyny does come up from time to time in church Bible study. It’s inevitable. I don’t feel we have to claim martyrdom over it, though. If you can find a fellowship that respects a Berean attitude, it’s your job to show yourself a worthy man whose opinion is worth hearing. Hopefully you can get to the point where they’ll “officially” deny your views, but respect you enough to not excommunicate. I know it’s hard. You’ll have to decide if losing fellowship over one issue is worth it to your spiritual life.

Shalom and God bless

 

[Joleneakamama]

Embrace the Old Testament fully as a pointer to how God intended to structure his society.

Eureka!
(That means I have found it)

We are told that YHWH doesn't change...also that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever.

We never had a church, so didn't lose much of anything in fellowship when my husband gained a second. We lost some family, and some claiming Christ in our small town that will gossip, spread untrue rumors, and talk behind my husband's back. Only one man had enough strength to confront him, but of course he had no "chapter and verse" to bring....and has never found one to bring back to the discussion.

I think the most disturbing thing is not living without a hypocritical community, but rather watching these people commit scriptural suicide without realizing they are standing "in the temple of God telling themselves they are God" and are on the shakey foundation of their own self righteous opinions.

Welcome to biblical families! Glad to have you here!

 

[steve]

Make this a matter of prayer.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done.
What does His Kingdom look like in this circumstance?
This fellowship is a group of believers who are in need of deeper understanding. Were you put there for such a time as this?

 

[Off-Grid Artist]

I think the most disturbing thing is not living without a hypocritical community, but rather watching these people commit scriptural suicide without realizing they are standing "in the temple of God telling themselves they are God" and are on the shakey foundation of their own self righteous opinions.

This really sums up how I am feeling right now. I've had only one man with the gumption to investigate on his own and he was leaning on one of the weakest arguments he could possibly choose. Completely unable to defend his position. I respect him for giving me an audience.

I've heard from people who are really not even a part of our old circle at all. The rumors of child grooming took off like wildfire. I've been considering a defamation lawsuit but who would I defend myself against? The broke old woman who started it? Our formerly close friends who hosted my wife's baby shower? Heck that lady KNOWS polygyny is legal, she married a polygynist and married into a polygynist FLDS family.

The wildfire of public gossip doesn't feel like something which can be managed and instead just something to be endured.

To the newcomer I say welcome. I'm new here too but my wife has been a member for years. I can sympathize with you. Here's our recent excommunication story - https://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/excommunication-forthcoming.18049/

 

[The Revolting Man]

Fellowship is non- negotiable (unfortunately it seems sometimes). No assembly is going to be a perfect fit.

Polygyny is a meaty issue. Most of the milk drinkers will choke on it. Don’t choke babies with meat.

 

[MrB]

Metaphorically speaking
When you are bulletproof you notice the lead gathering at your feet
It’s not the shot that hurts
What does the damage is realising who sent it your way
Strangers carry no weight, it’s friends and family that move us off centre
The need for acceptance or approval from others can be like a rock in your shoe until you realise you don’t have a use for it, you can live quite happily without it.

 

[YoreyC]

god has blessed me with a church that is, despite their fundamentalism, level-headed and curious enough to handle pushback.

that's enough for me.

i don't need to change their minds. but i do need christian friends.

there are no perfect churches. "practicalist" pastors michael foster and bnonn tennant preach to not be a "single-issue guy;" dont break fellowship over them not being patriarchal enough, polygamous enough, TO-enough... many other issues you could choose to make a problem. sanctification takes time, weaning takes time. sometimes more time than you have in your human life.

sometimes you should, i guess. but typically there's nothing to be gained by turning a friend into an enemy.

 

[frederick]

Welcome aboard the ride on the polygyny learning curve @RealmUncertain. I hear loud and clear everything you said. It shook me to my spiritual core when I started to grasp what Scripture actually says about marriage. So much of what you've been told and have held onto goes out the door when you read the Bible with your eyes wide open.

typically there's nothing to be gained by turning a friend into an enemy.

True, we don't need more enemies! The difficulty arises mostly from those who were friends making themselves our enemies over the polygyny issue.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Welcome aboard the ride on the polygyny learning curve @RealmUncertain. I hear loud and clear everything you said. It shook me to my spiritual core when I started to grasp what Scripture actually says about marriage. So much or what you've been told and have held onto goes out the door when you read the Bible with your eyes wide open.

True, we don't need more enemies! The difficulty arises mostly from those who were friends making themselves our enemies over the polygyny issue.

This is what has happened to me. Those that were close at one time and even see polygny as biblical chose to walk away so they wouldn't have to deal with others that decry it. They are lukewarm and weak minded! If you cannot stand up for the truth, you will fall for anything...

 

[RealmUncertain]

Close friends of mine caught wind about my views on patriarchy and polygyny.
I intentionally did not say anything to them about it, because I see no point bringing up this topic to married people.

Anyhow I visited them recently and they put on a show on Netflix about one FLDS guy who thought he was a prophet with many wives some of them under age. Seems to me like the wife put on the show intentionally, because when I tried to leave the husband kept asking me to stay till the end of one episode after the next.

Lol, we ended up in a debate about the issue, sadly no one actually wanted to contend with the scriptures they were more interested in watching the Netflix show and pontificating about it. Sadly am not sure I was a good witness either. In the end I and the husband were super triggered even though we were debating different sides of the issue. The wife and another lady there seemed content to just watch us make fools of ourselves.

It is really difficult to deal with people who don't know how to be intellectually honest and rigorous. I mean if you wanna discuss the matter do it plainly rather than with a slight of hand. I guess for me it was really an exercise in learning not getting triggered by the issue.

 

[steve]

I guess for me it was really an exercise in learning not getting triggered by the issue.

Yup, practice makes perfect

 

[YoreyC]

It is really difficult to deal with people who don't know how to be intellectually honest and rigorous. I mean if you wanna discuss the matter do it plainly rather than with a slight of hand. I guess for me it was really an exercise in learning not getting triggered by the issue.

i think god didn't make most people for intellectual rigor, almost by definition. tools for different purposes. there are friends in my church i've learned are blunt objects and god uses them for evangelism and other stuff.

when i try to make a blunt object do something sharp, i'm misusing god's tools.

 

[RealmUncertain]

i think god didn't make most people for intellectual rigor, almost by definition. tools for different purposes. there are friends in my church i've learned are blunt objects and god uses them for evangelism and other stuff.

when i try to make a blunt object do something sharp, i'm misusing god's tools.

Perhaps this is the case

 

[Joleneakamama]

Yup, practice makes perfect

My sisters taking gymnastics classes were told "Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect."

 

[Off-Grid Artist]

Close friends of mine caught wind about my views on patriarchy and polygyny.
I intentionally did not say anything to them about it, because I see no point bringing up this topic to married people.

This sounds familiar to me. My wife and I brought it up with an old woman pushing 70, who is a close friend of ours going back probably close to five years. In the past we've talked about divorce, sex, porn, relationships - really no taboo between us.

She was moaning about her latest divorce (from a good man I respected) and going through her shitty life of broken marriages and betrayals against her long line of husbands - my wife thinks she's been married six times. She had just gotten divorced, a "good friend" of hers stole 35 goats and ~10k or more in cash from her, she'd been couch surfing for months all around the country, and just had back surgery and was on meds. We should have eaten dinner and left, or just not gone to her apartment. That was my fault. When she loudly protested "all men are pigs!" I should have gathered my wife and kids and left.

Also in the last two years I've learned a lot about narcissism, feminism, and codependency. Since this lady had been gone for a couple years, I didn't realize she was part of that pattern in my life.

When she started talking about her divorce from a "good man" a long time ago because he seduced a virgin and got her pregnant, I suggested to her that she should have welcomed the girl into her home and celebrated an increase in her husband's family. Instead she divorced her husband and "forced" him to marry the girl. She's Torah-observant as we are. It felt like a logical conversation to have, and I believe it was a logical conversation.

She LOVED the idea. She was so excited to see the world differently. We talked about it for hours and she said she was going to live her life entirely differently. She admitted to manipulating men and realized that patriarchy doesn't mean chauvinism.

Within a few weeks she had whipped up a moral panic with imagined accusations about me grooming children and it had spread through at least a hundred people in different churches as far as I can tell. Then she told me she submitted to the headship of our old pastor (an aggressive anti-male feminist) and to not communicate with her anymore.

 

[Bartato]

@RealmUncertain,
I don't think the three options you listed include all the options, or what I regard as the best one.

Hebrews 1 tells us that ..

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:1-3)

I believe Yeshua/Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, Light of the World, the very Logos or Word of God Himself.

1.The Son is the Supreme Revelation of God.
2. All Scripture is breathed out by God.

God really spoke to man through the Old Testament (and the New Testament).

We understand that Jesus is the Christ because of the Old and New Testament Scriptures, but somehow He, the Man, is even superior to them as The Revelation of God.

We do not disregard or cast off the Old or New Testaments. We instead have this Man (who we see in both Old and New Testaments as the Centerpiece, Cornerstone, and Interpreter).

I don't know how all it works, but above all else I want to focus on Him.

I want to understand the Torah through Him, and I want to understand the Apostles teachings through Him.

As it comes to the issue of polygamy, I am convinced that it is not inherently contrary to His character, but can be done in a way that accords with His Character, and delights His heart.

That is why the Torah and the prophets very clearly permit it.

That is also why Paul and the other Apostles never prohibited it either.

 

[Bartato]

I don't think you can affirm the doctrinal statement of that particular Messianic fellowship.

It explicitly rejects polygyny, which the Bible permits.

In my case, I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church. The elders of my church know my convictions on this matter. I have discussed the issue a bit here and there with people other than the elders, but don't generally talk about it much.

I feel that I am able to affirm the official doctrinal statement of our church (the Baptist Faith and Message 2000).

The BFaM 2000 doesn't absolutely reject polygyny the way the statement listed above does (though the framers of it probably intended it to be understood that way).

Here is what it says.

Marriage is the uniting of one man and one woman in covenant commitment for a lifetime.

I agree with that. Jacob was in a lifelong covenant union with Leah. Jacob was in a lifelong covenant union with Rachel.

They didn't specify that it is absolutely impossible for a man to be in more than one union.

If they did specify that, (like the Messianic fellowship above), then I couldn't affirm it.

 

[MemeFan]

Close friends of mine caught wind about my views on patriarchy and polygyny.
I intentionally did not say anything to them about it, because I see no point bringing up this topic to married people.

Anyhow I visited them recently and they put on a show on Netflix about one FLDS guy who thought he was a prophet with many wives some of them under age. Seems to me like the wife put on the show intentionally, because when I tried to leave the husband kept asking me to stay till the end of one episode after the next.

Lol, we ended up in a debate about the issue, sadly no one actually wanted to contend with the scriptures they were more interested in watching the Netflix show and pontificating about it. Sadly am not sure I was a good witness either. In the end I and the husband were super triggered even though we were debating different sides of the issue. The wife and another lady there seemed content to just watch us make fools of ourselves.

It is really difficult to deal with people who don't know how to be intellectually honest and rigorous. I mean if you wanna discuss the matter do it plainly rather than with a slight of hand. I guess for me it was really an exercise in learning not getting triggered by the issue.

This, again, has nothing with Scripture. It has everything with social dynamics.

Basic idea is that society has sort of "immune system" against bad ideas. It's emotional response which blocks clear thinking.

So, if you connect somebody or some idea with what society considers morally disastrious, you activate in people "disguist circuit" (immune defense). So in your hosts minds, polygyny is connected with child marriage. This is why they wanted to talk about that Nexflix show.

Next time you should tell them child marriage is evil and you are against that.

You have to realize, some people are more likely to question societal morality. And if you find something problematic, you are more likely to find another thing problematic too. So it's easy to finish in situation where you finish as social outcast because of question too much things or you hit one of big taboos (child marriage, incest etc...).

This is way some people finish as supporters of polygyny, arranged marriage and child marriage. No wonder such people are societal outcasts and have problem with law enforcement.

This article by Tom Luongo is good description of dynamics. It's political, but same idea:

Kavanaugh, the Disgust Circuit and the Limits of "Nuts and Sluts" - Gold Goats 'n Guns

The Ragin’ Cajun, I believe, coined the phrase “Nuts and Sluts” to succinctly describe the tactic used by the elites I call The Davos Crowd to smear and destroy someone they’ve targeted. Brett Kavanaugh is the latest victim of this technique. But, there have been dozens of victims I can list...

tomluongo.me

EDIT: Spelling