Future or fulfilled?

[FollowingHim]

Thankyou @Quartus for stating the blindingly obvious that I'd somehow never linked together - that both David and Melchizekek were king of Jerusalem, and that Jesus inherits both.

This is a key verse at the heart of this all - I'm quoting @PeteR, but changing the emphasis:

Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever

Ultimately what we are looking for is Jesus reigning in Jerusalem, over people who follow Him as their King.

Who follows Jesus as their King?

I really don't think this has much if anything to do with the present country of Israel, because the majority of the people and their leadership clearly and intentionally reject Messiah. More than that, they have actually displaced many people who do follow Him - as I understand it there were more Christians in the land before the establishment of the state of Israel than there are today. The number of Christians in Jerusalem has certainly declined under Israeli rule (see below). So today the people in the land actually reject the King MORE than they did a century ago - this has moved away from a state of prophetic fulfilment, not towards it.

Numbers of Christians (the King's followers) in the city of the King (source):

[Yousef Daher, of the Jerusalem Interchurch Centre, located in the Old City] noted that rather than growing, as would be expected, Jerusalem’s wider Christian population has declined from 12,000 in 1967 to a total of 9,000 today.

Although there are no official figures, he estimated that no more than 2,400 Christians remained in the Old City.

I agree that we will ultimately see Christ reigning from Jerusalem, over His people, who will inhabit the Land (and more to the ends of the earth). This will most likely be established by Him suddenly and miraculously. However, if we are looking for incremental fulfilment of this prophecy, that would come in the form of increased numbers of followers of the Messiah in Jerusalem - not decreased numbers.

 

[Quartus]

@FollowingHim Thank you for your comments. Although there are only 3 passages that mention Melchisedek/Melchizedek by name, the lessons go on and on. And of course they should be of considerable interest to us:

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests (=Melchisedeks) to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

 

[PeteR]

The number of Christians in Jerusalem has certainly declined under Israeli rule

Actually, the number has increased sharply in the younger / millennial generation and general outreach is off the charts. Official data cannot and will not show this as admitting brings persecution, though I recommend Israeli ministries such as

They have many great testimonies online and I recall that they get about 1M hits/year from within Israel a country of only 8M people... Hmmm...

Seems they are awakening toYeshua in the same way Christians are awakening to the Torah... imagine, brothers walking as Yeshua walked with faith in Him!

 

[PeteR]

 

[FollowingHim]

Actually, the number has increased sharply in the younger / millennial generation and general outreach is off the charts. Official data cannot and will not show this as admitting brings persecution

That is great to hear, but it doesn't really contradict my point. It is not anything unique to Israel - that's happening throughout the Middle East at present - people are converting en-masse to Christianity and hiding it to avoid persecution. You could say the same of Saudi Arabia or Iran. God is moving in marvellous ways.

God is raising up a nation of young people who follow Jesus, and that is fantastic. They come from within Israel, the neighbouring countries in the Middle East, and even further afield. And it is THIS nation who are the followers of Messiah.

That doesn't in any way alter the historical factors that have caused Christians to flee the land of Israel as a result of Jewish control of the Land. Following centuries of Muslim rule, Bethlehem was almost entirely Christian in 1967. After half a century of Jewish rule it's now majority Muslim. That is a negative, not a positive. In the same way, the historical treatment of Christians in the surrounding Muslim countries is a negative to Messiah, not a positive. Most Middle Eastern nations, with the exception of Lebanon and maybe Syria, oppose Christian evangelism. Even Israel - hence why these people hide their conversion, and why missionaries there must work with a degree of secrecy (I know, I am fully in agreement with the importance of evangelising Israel @PeteR and have put my resources into helping this key mission in various ways).

It is wonderful that some Jews (and Muslims) are turning to God. But the fact that people are turning to God in Israel and Iran today does not mean that the Israeli nation or the Iranian nation are of God. Rather, it means that God is growing His nation despite and within them.

Basically, I think this is irrelevant.

 

[PeteR]

people are converting en-masse to Christianity

See? This is the problem.. Jews who come to Messiah do not become 'christian.' In fact, and this is a real problem... there is no such thing as 'Christian' in the sense that the term is used. The new covenant isn't with a religion.'

This may seem esoteric, but the point is, God's people are Israel. Israel is composed of two groups, Judah and Ephraim (aka house of Israel, Joseph). Believers in Messiah, incorrectly called 'christian' - as if some separate religion, actually are either house of Judah (Jews) or house of Israel (whether physical descendants or ingrafted).

Until we wrap our minds around this fact and reframe our understanding, the prophets and eschatology will not make sense.

The fact that Jews keep Torah and are coming to Messiah demonstrates that they 'keep the commandments of God and gave the testimony of Yeshua.' As people in the church begin keeping Torah, they, too, 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua.' Both are a HUGE mark that we are in the latter days and God is in the process if literally fulfilling the passages regarding the restoration of kol Israel.

 

[Quartus]

Ah but who then are "the redeemed"? Where should we put Noah and Melchisedek?

 

[PeteR]

Ah but who then are "the redeemed"? Where should we put Noah and Melchisedek?

All fit into 'My People'.. my point deals with everyone since Jacob, aka Israel.

I expect many, prior to Jacob, to be there... I'll let Yah sort that out. He is pretty clear though, the new covenant is with two groups, the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Some, like Melchitzedek and Noach, may be among the 24 elders?

Will be interesting to see.

 

[PeteR]

And, a further thought... the prophesies pointing to restoration in the Land, under the reign of Messiah are current (possibly) and future generations, so, can be written exclusively to those groups as physical fulfillment will only involve descendants of Jacob and those grafted in.

 

[FollowingHim]

See? This is the problem.. Jews who come to Messiah do not become 'christian.' In fact, and this is a real problem... there is no such thing as 'Christian' in the sense that the term is used. The new covenant isn't with a religion.'

Just terminology. Jews who come to Messiah are followers of Yeshua. The early followers of Yeshua were called "Christians". I know people are emotive about what terms they want to apply to themselves because they don't want to identify with the standard church, however it is splitting hairs. We mean the same thing.

This may seem esoteric, but the point is, God's people are Israel.

And we completely agree on that. With those who were not genetically Israel being grafted in - and those who reject Messiah being cut out - so the group is still the same group.

Yet the group that is "Israel" is ultimately composed of only those who follow Messiah, as those who reject Him are cut out and those who accept Him are grafted in. So the word "Israel" becomes synonymous with the concept of "catholic (universal) Church" as in the Apostles Creed. They're the same entity - there is only one entity. And that entity is the citizens of the Kingdom.

The fact that Jews keep Torah and are coming to Messiah demonstrates that they 'keep the commandments of God and gave the testimony of Yeshua.' As people in the church begin keeping Torah, they, too, 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua.' Both are a HUGE mark that we are in the latter days and God is in the process if literally fulfilling the passages regarding the restoration of kol Israel.

I actually agree with you on the prophetic implications of this.

 

[PeteR]

Just terminology. Jews who come to Messiah are followers of Yeshua. The early followers of Yeshua were called "Christians".

Exactly. 'Christian' meant 'follower of Messiah,' but they were regarded as a sect of Jews. They kept Torah... so much so that 300 years later the Emperor took up pen and sword to divide Jews and nonJews who kept Torah while believing on Messiah.

Today, 'Christian' doesn't so much mean 'follower of Christ' as 'member of a huge religious feelgood umbrella that believes in the Bible to one degree or another.' Applying today's 'religious definition' to believers in Acts introduces all kinds of anachronisms that weren't there at that time.

Those anachronisms affect our lens when reading Scripture. We then have warped theology, eschatology, ecclesiology, etc...

God, nor Yeshua, were starting some new religion in 30CE. They are about covenant and relationship. Christianity and Judaism are just religions, but there are ethnic elements ate the root with which God has covenant through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... until He brings that full circle, we are still in 'unfulfilled' territory..

 

[FollowingHim]

I was meaning 'follower of Messiah'. Those who are just in the feelgood club but not followers are deluding themselves and are not really Christians / Israelites / Kingdom citizens / pick whichever term you prefer. I just happened to use a term that elicited a negative emotional response in yourself. For me these are synonyms - and they all exclude those who are not followers of Messiah, whether or not they attend a church or a synagogue.

God, nor Yeshua, were starting some new religion in 30CE.

I agree. He never changes. He has always had one set of followers (with obvious divisions into different tribes etc, lots of interesting complexity, but fundamentally still one people). There is only one true religion - and that is following YHWH's will.

Having said that, He does give different instructions to different people at different times. Adam was following His will when eating only vegetables, while Noah later followed His will when adding meat to the diet. But they were both still following the same "religion" - obeying YHWH - as they each obeyed His instructions for their lives.

but there are ethnic elements ate the root with which God has covenant through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... until He brings that full circle, we are still in 'unfulfilled' territory.

However He fulfills this, He will be fulfilling it with that subset of those of that descent who follow Messiah, and not with that subset who reject Him and are cut off from their inheritence. Furthermore, given the many years of exile and the thorny "lost tribes" issue, those whom that covenant applies to will be scattered throughout the nations, and many will not even know their own ethnicity. A true fulfilment of this will look very different to a group of Ashkenazis (as we basically see in present-day Israel), because any blessing of them is only blessing a tiny portion of those whom that covenant is with. So present-day Israel may be part of this fulfilment, but can only be a part.

 

[Quartus]

So present-day Israel may be part of this fulfilment, but can only be a part.

I absolutely agree. And once the part is amended to satisfactorily include the faithful for the 2000 years before Abraham,
that might help to define how the whole actually includes the faithful from the 2000 years after AD70.

 

[FollowingHim]

I absolutely agree. And once the part is amended to satisfactorily include the faithful for the 2000 years before Abraham, that might help to define how the whole actually includes the faithful from the 2000 years after AD70.

I like the thrust of your statement, but I'm not clear what you mean by "amended to satisfactorily include the faithful for the 2000 years before Abraham". Can you elaborate? I think you're going in a valuable direction but I'm not sure what road you're taking on the journey!

 

[PeteR]

So present-day Israel may be part of this fulfilment, but can only be a part.

Totally agree. If I'm not mistaken, 'Israel' wasn't first or second choice for the name of the modern state.

The modern state is a a partial fulfillment and not representative of kol Israel, described in Scripture. Matters not how it came to be (as some use it to vilify Jews), what is important is Yah is working out His plan according to Scripture. God, in His time, will purify it as well as the entire region promised to Abraham... Euphrates to Nile, Bahrain to the Med... roughly 2/3rds size of US, easily able to support 200-300M people. The current sliver is 'first fruits' or down payment on Abraham's promise.

 

[FollowingHim]

The problem is that that sliver doesn't see it quite that way, and doesn't recognise that those they call "Christians" are actually in the Kingdom more firmly than themselves (so long as they reject Messiah). So they push Christian Palestinians off their land to make way for Jewish settlers, and bomb (or rather have bombed, but no doubt will continue to do so in future) Christians in Lebanon and Syria. When you combine that with the actions of Islamic extremists in the wider region (in some cases covertly supported by Israel so the combination is not inappropriate), the whole picture is a clearing of Christians from that wider promised region. Israel is not supporting the Christians in Iraq, Syria, Egypt and elsewhere. They're either ignoring them or supporting their enemies depending who you believe. In the recent Armenian war, Israel was supplying weaponry to the Muslim side to use against the Christian Armenians.

So somewhere within that return of Jews to Israel will, no doubt, be genuine citizens of the Kingdom returning to the Land they are entitled to inherit. But they are accompanied by so many enemies of the Kingdom, actively working against the citizens of the Kingdom, that the current situation is far too messy to know whether on balance this is resulting in a net increase in the number of the heirs in the land, or a decrease.

 

[PeteR]

I hear ya, and sympathize. I just trust the Father, playing 10-D chess, is purifying His people on both sides while accomplishing His purpose....

In the end, if the house of Israel is within Christendom, as I believe it is, then what you describe is the ongoing 3000 year old civil war between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. For me, some of the sweetest words in all of Scripture are,

11It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.

12He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

13Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

14But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.

15The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dryshod.

16There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.

This is a poly story. God, two brides fighting, and He wants them in the same house. His house.

Until that happens, much prophecy is unfulfilled.

Every man here who longs for a poly house that walks in peace should hear the cry of Yah's broken heart all through the prophets. And, we should greive for the two houses that they come together in peace and cease this hatred toward each other. Then, we will enter into the great celebration when He restores the Kingdom and the King/husband is on the throne in radiant joy!

 

[Joleneakamama]

It's little known that much of Judah was taken by the Assyrians just 20 years after the House of Israel.

From a site online here.

Inscription Of Sennacherib (705-681 B.C.)
In the course of my campaign Beth-Dagon, Joppa, Benebarqua, Azuru, the cities of Tsidqa, which had not quickly thrown themselves at my feet, I besieged, I took, I carried away their spoil. The governors, chiefs, and people of Ekron who had cast Padi, their king according to Assyrian right and oath, into iron chains, and had, in hostile manner, given him to Hezekiah of Judah – he shut him up in prison – feared in their hearts. The kings of Egypt called forth the archers, chariots, and horses of the king of Melukhkhi, a force without number, and came to their help; before the city of Eltekeh they arranged their battle array, appealing to their weapons. With the help of Ashur, my lord, I fought with them and accomplished their defeat. The chief of the chariots of the king of Melukhkhi my hands took alive in the fight. Eltekeh and Temnath I besieged, I took, and carried away their spoil.

To the city of Ekron I went; the governors and princes, who had committed a transgression, I killed and bound their corpses on poles around the city. The inhabitants of the city who had committed sin and evil I counted as spoil; to the rest of them who had committed no sin and wrong, who had no guilt, I spoke peace. Padi, their King, I brought forth from the city of Jerusalem; upon the throne of lordship over them I placed him. The tribute of my lordship I laid upon him. But Hezekiah, of Judah, who had not submitted to my yoke, I besieged 46 of his strong cities, fortresses, and small cities of their environs, without number, and by casting down the walls and advancing the engines, by an assault of the light-armed soldiers, by breaches, by striking, and by axes I took them; 200,150 men, young and old, male and female, horses, mules, asses, camels, oxen, and sheep without number I brought out from them, I counted them as spoil. Hezekiah himself I shut up like a caged bird in Jerusalem, his royal city; the walls I fortified against him, and whosoever came out of the gates of the city I turned back. His cities, which I had plundered, I divided from his land and gave them to Mitinti, King of Ashdod, to Padi, King of Ekron, and to Tsil-Bal, King of Gaza, and thus diminished his territory. To the former tribute, paid yearly, I added the tribute of alliance of my lordship, and laid that upon him. Hezekiah himself was overwhelmed by the fear of the brightness of my lordship; the Arabians and his other faith warriors whom, as a defense for Jerusalem, his royal city, he had brought in, fell into fear. With 30 talents of gold and 800 talents of silver, precious stones, gukhli daggassi, large lapis lazuli, couches of ivory, thrones of ivory, ivory, usu wood, boxwood of every kind, a heavy treasure, and his daughters, his women of the palace, the young men and young women, to Nineveh, the city of my lordship, I caused to be brought after me, and he sent his ambassadors to give tribute and to pay homage.”


Editor’s note to Sennacherib's inscription: This Assyrian invasion and exile of the people of Judah took place in 701 B.C., two decades after the exile of the House of Israel. Most people today are not aware that all of the land of Judah, except for the city of Jerusalem, was overrun by the Assyrians and its people exiled. Only a remnant of the House of Judah remained to be exiled for seventy years by the Babylonians a century later. Therefore, a significant number of Israelites of all twelve tribes were exiled by the Assyrians and never returned to Canaan. The became "wanderers among the nations" and Bible prophecy spoke of them growing in number and becoming a company of nations. See the research on this website and the books offered on this important subject.

This means that a good portion of the House of Judah was also dispersed among the 'Gentiles.' Another reason why we believe they (the two houses) were united under Yeshua back when the good news was first proclaimed. This is why writers of the new testament addressed letters "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad."

 

[FollowingHim]

That is very interesting to compare with 2 Kings 17-19 @Joleneakamama. The focus of those chapters is God's deliverance of Jerusalem because of Hezekiah's faith - however, when read carefully, it is only Jerusalem that was delivered. The topic of the whole account is just about Jerusalem. Nothing is really said about the rest of the land of Judah, so it doesn't actually contradict that inscription.

On the other hand, it is probable that Sennacherib's inscription is exaggerated and boastful propaganda. It's safe to assume with such inscriptions that the actual quantity of people and spoils was probably a lot lower than claimed. Nevertheless, even if those numbers are halved, it's still a substantial number of people carried off.

Fascinating.

 

[Quartus]

I like the thrust of your statement, but I'm not clear what you mean by "amended to satisfactorily include the faithful for the 2000 years before Abraham". Can you elaborate? I think you're going in a valuable direction but I'm not sure what road you're taking on the journey!

I think the circle of the redeemed must be a different circle than the circle of Israel. They overlap but I wouldn't put either circle totally inside the other.

Anyway here's a bit more detail on how I understand those first 2000 years.
The faithful before that time are clearly not part of Abraham's descendants but they are covered by the promise to Eve - that there would be a redeemer.
They are part of the seed-plural of the woman, from whom the ALL the accepted redeemed will be selected.
Israel is part of the seed of the woman, but not all the redeemed can be selected from natural Israel (Noah &Co).

Just reading it through... to clarify then, the "seed of the woman" (used to type of Israel, Judah and the ecclesia) encompasses natural Israel and everyone else, but natural "Israel" cannot encompass the seed of the woman in its entirety.

But the most important promise is not to the seed plural but to the seed singular that is Christ. And Matthew spells it out from the beginning. Christ is the son of David the son of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the son of Adam (incorporating his wife Eve). Otherwise Jesus cannot possibly be the seed that was promised to fulfil the promises.

And "Israel" could be 1000 times as big or whatever number we like, but without the sacrifice of Christ no covenant promise can take effect.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

So the qualification to be considered a child of Abraham does not depend on any particular definition of Israel, but rather on showing by our faith and our lives that we do the works of Abraham.

And that qualification is fulfilled by becoming IN CHRIST

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ's sacrifice is as effective for the 2000 years before Abraham as it was for the 2000 years after Abraham, and also for the 2000 years after Christ as well. It's open to Jew and Gentile irrespective of race or colour, All must be born again spiritually, because if we stay in Adam's race, we die.