'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murderer'

[FollowingHim]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Thread derailment? What's that? I'm the one that started debating with Wesley over whether he was libertarian or not!

Fascinating website, could spend days reading that! Thanks.

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Limited Government is a mirage, a delusion, since power corrupts and all governments will inevitably seek an increase in their power over time.

If you would like a specific example, the USA has a massive body count behind it, from the plains Indians, to their own citizens in the war between the states, to the Philippines, to the Germans, the Koreans, Iraqis, Afghanis, the list goes on. And all that time, there was a Constitution, which was supposed to limit government, but has utterly failed to do so.

PS Apologies to Samuel for thread derailment however I know you like intellectual pursuit

We will apparently have to agree to disagree. Thank you for sharing your opinions though.

My own opinion is based on two realities.

• Saying that all governments are bad just because some governments are is like saying that all people are bad just because 100% of all homicides are committed by people.
• If it was a sin for a government to kill people then the sacrifice of Christ would have been a tainted product of sin. Since the sacrifice of Christ had to be perfect in every way then it obviously is not a sin, at least as I see it, for a government to kill people, even innocent people. (Christ was the most innocent man who ever lived but if killing Him had been a sin then His sacrifice would have been worthless.) Thus Romans 13:4 means exactly what it says.

That's what I believe anyway. I asked for your belief. I respect your belief. This is mine. Your mileage may vary.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

[*]If it was a sin for a government to kill people then the sacrifice of Christ would have been a tainted product of sin. Since the sacrifice of Christ had to be perfect in every way then it obviously is not a sin, at least as I see it, for a government to kill people, even innocent people. (Christ was the most innocent man who ever lived but if killing Him had been a sin then His sacrifice would have been worthless.) Thus Romans 13:4 means exactly what it says.[/list]

Christ himself had to be sinless, and he was. Since he did not kill himself he was the perfect sacrifice. Others killed him for a crime he did not commit, therefore they commited murder and sinned.
Your quote above is a very dangerous position to hold.
In the words of Shepherd Book from the infamous Firefly:

A government is a body of people, notably, ungoverned.

 

[ylop]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Hi Wesley.

Thanks for sharing, yes its fine to disagree, this forum has plenty of alternate viewpoints.

For me, I believe government is simply another term for a large successful organised crime syndicate, and yes I believe they are all bad.

Also, I believe that people kill people, not governments. There will be no governments reviewed at the final judgement. Just individuals, accountable for their actions. For example, when an individual has fired a missile at a wedding party and incinerated 37 civilians, I suggest its the drone operator that will be responsible for that, along with the politicians that arranged the invasion of that country and maybe a few others. And "just following orders" will be an even weaker defence than it was at Nuremberg.

Cheers,

ylop

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Christ himself had to be sinless, and he was. Since he did not kill himself he was the perfect sacrifice. Others killed him for a crime he did not commit, therefore they commited murder and sinned.

Really? The sacrifices of the Israelites were supposed to give us the type and shadow of Christ's sacrifice so that we can understand it. If your position is correct then why did the Levitical priests have to undergo such rigorous purification rituals in order to be able to conduct the sacrifices?

It doesn't take a giant leap of logic to realize that when we compare Christ's sacrifice to the Israelite sacrifices that means that Pontius Pilate compares with the priest who orders the sacrifice. He has to be pure in the sacrifice for the same reason that the Levitical priests had to be pure.

Your quote above is a very dangerous position to hold.
In the words of Shepherd Book from the infamous Firefly:

A government is a body of people, notably, ungoverned.

I would rather trust the Apostles that Christ chose to convey His message to the world than whomever wrote the fictional work you are referring to.

Romans 13:1-4 NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

That's what I believe anyway. Like I said above I respect your beliefs.

 

[annette1971tx]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

There is a Libertarian Party. I am a member of Bexar County Libertarian Party (San Antonio,Texas) and i vote Libertarian

 

[yoderfamily]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Very interesting ylop. I would tend to agree on all points you presented.

Wesley. If Pilate was so pure why did he commit suicide out of guilt. ? What about the dream from his wife? I'm just not making the same connection there as you are.
And yes it is fine to agree to disagree. :mrgreen:

 

[FollowingHim2]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Romans 13:1-4 NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Ok, if you're going there, then what about Hitler? If you were a Jew in WWII do you think you might have thought that the German government was sinning? They murdered millions of good, Godly people.
Or is it only your own government you are refering to, or just the Israli government, or perhaps only the Romans? Where exactly are you drawing the line?
Yes God can put people in authority. So can satan.

I'm not saying not to obey the government at all. I am saying that they're not perfect and are made up of individual people who are all sinners.

 

[GloryGirl]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

The only thing that went through my mind, when thinking about the idea that the ones responsible for Jesus' death were not sinning was: "Then why did Jesus pray 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'?"

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

The only thing that went through my mind, when thinking about the idea that the ones responsible for Jesus' death were not sinning was: "Then why did Jesus pray 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'?"

I personally believe that that was a reference to the entire world, not just the Romans. We're all sinners and Christ's purpose was to forgive all of us not just the Romans. He stayed focused on that purpose throughout His life. His healing wasn't just for the Jews or just for the Romans so why would His forgiveness be just for the Romans?

Of course that's just my own belief.

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Romans 13:1-4 NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Ok, if you're going there, then what about Hitler? If you were a Jew in WWII do you think you might have thought that the German government was sinning? They murdered millions of good, Godly people.
Or is it only your own government you are refering to, or just the Israli government, or perhaps only the Romans? Where exactly are you drawing the line?
Yes God can put people in authority. So can satan.

I'm not saying not to obey the government at all. I am saying that they're not perfect and are made up of individual people who are all sinners.

Yes, they are just as human as we are. And thus they are just as forgiven.

My point is that all of the judgmentalism that is directed toward governments is no different than judgmentalism directed toward us. When a government official is doing his best to do his job effectively then he is forgiven for his mistakes just like we are. It is God who created the need for governments. Paul said so in Romans 13. Yes, God expects them to love their neighbor just as much as anyone else but it is their job to execute criminals. They don't carry deadly weapons for no apparent reason. (Romans 13:4)

I doubt that people like Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao Tse Tung or any of the socialist dictators who killed millions of people can be considered as doing their best to do their job effectively in God's sight. I'm not sure that God is going to forgive willful rebellion as opposed to human failing.

As for your question about where I draw the line, the only government that I personally am in a position to judge is my own and that's only because our government is "of the people, by the people and for the people." I am one of the people that is referred to in that phrase. Because I am to obey the rules of the government (that don't conflict with God's laws) I am also to obey that rule as well.

Judges, those in the position of governmental authority, are expected to judge fairly. (Exodus 21:23-25) When we are put in the position of being voters that involves us the governmental process and we are expected to do so as well. (I have to wonder how many liberals, conservatives, etc. are in for a surprise for not doing so on Judgment Day.)

When it comes to my own government I have a hard time getting past the reality that stupid voters make for stupider politicians. How do we blame the politicians when the people are the ones who elected the idiots in the first place?

Once again, that's what I believe. Others will disagree.

 

[GloryGirl]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

I can understand that interpretation, Wesley.

On a different note, if killing people in war is automatically murder and therefore sin, why did God tell his chosen people to sin? This makes no sense at all to me.

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

I can understand that interpretation, Wesley.

On a different note, if killing people in war is automatically murder and therefore sin, why did God tell his chosen people to sin? This makes no sense at all to me.

Likewise, if executing murderers is a sin then why did God tell His chosen people to sin?

Exodus 21:23-25 NIV
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

We are not bound by the Mosaic Law but God does not condone sin. He forbids it. So anything that is commanded, or even permitted, under Mosaic Law is not sinful. For instance we are not required to sacrifice rams or bulls in accordance with Mosaic Law but it is not sinful to do so.

Thus since a judge sentencing criminals to be executed, according his best judgment of fairness, is commanded that means that the action is not sinful.

 

[GloryGirl]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

My thoughts exactly.

 

[FollowingHim]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Ok, if you're going there, then what about Hitler?...

Yes, they are just as human as we are. And thus they are just as forgiven.

If they need forgiveness, then they must have sinned. If their actions were not sinful, they would not need forgiveness.
Furthermore they will not receive forgiveness without repenting, so you cannot assume they are forgiven.

So please clarify Wesley. Are the actions of repressive governments sin (requiring forgiveness), or not sinful?

Romans 13:1-4 NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Note my different highlighting. This passage does NOT say that all actions of governments are just. On the contrary, it states that authorities exist to punish wrongdoers. Killing the innocent doesn't come under that category. The only just action of government commended here is punishment of WRONGDOERS (which includes capital punishment, as they "bear the sword" for this purpose). And the Bible defines who a wrongdoer is.

Government has a legitimate role, we do need a government of some form. But the legitimate role of government is limited. To understand what the legitimate role of government is, from a Biblical perspective, I would highly recommend the classic 1850 essay "The Law" by Bastiat, a very notable historical economist / philosopher. It's a short read, and well worth taking the time to look at for anyone interested in this general area. It's available for free in many formats, or online here:
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

 

[ylop]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

It is God who created the need for governments.

God created humans to live in free fellowship with Him and with each other.

It is sinful humans who created governments as a means of controlling others and extracting wealth from them.

The desire for government is a rejection of God.

1 Samuel 8

When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”

 

[ylop]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

I would highly recommend the classic 1850 essay "The Law" by Bastiat

Yes I have that one on my bookshelf.

Are you sure we need a government?

Do you really feel the need for a coercive overlord?

Do you have a desire to inflict your will onto other people, by force?

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

Government has a legitimate role, we do need a government of some form. But the legitimate role of government is limited.

Wow! This is rich. A Tea Partier is being lectured on the need for limited government. Is that the pastor preaching to the choir or the choir singing to the pastor?

As for your question about repressive governments perhaps I should remind you how this conversation got started.

First...

'Limited Government' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murderer'

Then I asked for clarification and...

Limited Government is a mirage, a delusion, since power corrupts and all governments will inevitably seek an increase in their power over time.

If you would like a specific example, the USA has a massive body count behind it, from the plains Indians, to their own citizens in the war between the states, to the Philippines, to the Germans, the Koreans, Iraqis, Afghanis, the list goes on. And all that time, there was a Constitution, which was supposed to limit government, but has utterly failed to do so.

To this I responded by pointing out that not all governments are bad. Governments are like the people that make them up, flawed. That does not make them any worse than the people that make them up however.

Can a government official sin? Of course. Does being a government official cause him to sin any more than anyone else. No.

It seems to me that we've got some black and white thinking going on, as though all executions have to be either bad or good. It seems that ylop is saying that all executions/governments are wrong. Now you're accusing me of saying that they're all right.

Neither is true.

Here is a link that might help you understand the mistake that you and ylop seem to be making.

 

[Wesley]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

It is sinful humans who created governments as a means of controlling others and extracting wealth from them.

Nope.

Romans 13:1 NIV
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

If I am forced to make a choice between believing ylop and believing the Holy Spirit as relayed by the Apostle Paul I'm going to choose the Holy Spirit every time.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder

You know I just read Judges yesterday, and I can't help but think that there was a reason it kept saying "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes", right before it proceeded to tell us about some other terrible thing people did in Israel.

I firmly believe the government (inclusive) goes to far and butts in to too many places, but I also firmly believe we do in fact need them.