Gematria

[Tlaloc]

Anything that would require God to act out of two different wills or nature is illegitimate

He was acting a wicked role.

You have said he acts wicked. He acts out the role of someone wicked

Pretending to be wicked, even temporarily, goes beyond merely presenting a hypothetical where He is merely said to be wicked.

Yes, it does.

You maintain that he has pretended to be wicked.

God = wicked judge

Once again, you equate God with wickedness without thinking about it. You don't have a problem with a God that acts wickedly or portrays himself wickedly. There isn't much we can do if you keep that view.

For us, God does not act or appear to be wicked in any of these cases. His request of Abraham is a just one, only his mercy stopped Abraham from doing it. God only demanded of Abraham via what he demands for all, our life, and Christ himself was a human sacrifice for us. Job was about trials, and God didn't actually actively harm him, he only removed protections. As was said, the Parable of the wicked judge was saying 'if even a wicked judge does this, how much more does God do this' it wasn't saying God was a wicked judge.

So, unless you maintain that God has no problem disguising himself as evil, the importance of the meanings of the Jeremiah and Ezekiel verses are pretty clean cut.

Like John for Christ said

But Victor, I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, you do not understand the Word of God if you believe that God could ever be portrayed as wicked within the pages of Scripture. You have a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of God. He cannot do wrong. He cannot be wicked in any manner. It is certainly wrong to present God as sinning, as that is blasphemy. You are missing the boat here in your zeal to combat polygamy.

Anyway, if you want to move on with a productive discussion we need a few admissions. You said at one point

So it is w/ polygamy, any man who wouldn't tolerate his wife using another man in the manner of a husband can not, as Christian, ask his wife to allow him to use another woman as a wife. Not only do we have Lev. 19:18, we also have Gal. 3:28: "...neither bond nor free...neither male nor female..."

Implying that polyandry was parallel to polygyny, and in another place you said

There are a multitude of fundamental differences between men & women.

One difference which is that a man could have more than one woman in scripture without it being sin, but a woman could never have another man without someone sinning.

One way or another, you took Galatians out of context, there is not 'neither male nor female' in behavior, only in chance for salvation. You misused Galatians correct?


And second, do you at least, by now, understand that the women here are often on the forefront of promoting polygamy, and always with us on the issue. They don't feel like we've loved them any less for looking into polygamy, and they often feel we love them more. My wife even gets after me when I'm not searching enough for a second wife There's no 'golden rule' violation here.

 

[VictorLepanto]

You do understand that "play acting" & actually acting, as in performing an action, are two different things? If I was in movie, if I played John Wilkes Boothe, would have me prosecuted for assassinating Lincoln? For you, play acting at being Boothe & actually being Boothe are the same thing.

There is new movie coming out soon, based on the book Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. I hope you don't find yourself anywhere near the actor playing Boothe, your liable to stick a wooden stake through his heart. Naturally Boothe is a vampire.

 

[Anonymous]

For us, God does not act or appear to be wicked in any of these cases. His request of Abraham is a just one, only his mercy stopped Abraham from doing it. God only demanded of Abraham via what he demands for all, our life, and Christ himself was a human sacrifice for us. Job was about trials, and God didn't actually actively harm him, he only removed protections. As was said, the Parable of the wicked judge was saying 'if even a wicked judge does this, how much more does God do this' it wasn't saying God was a wicked judge.

AMEN !

In respect to the story of the wicked judge in Luke 18....Dr. Jack Hayford's New Spirit filled Life Bible had this to say in the footnotes:

Dr. Jack Hayford "The parable is a story using contrast rather than comparison. The readiness of God to effect justice lies in contrast to the reluctance of the judge who only dispenses justice out of exasperation with the nuisance of the widow's persistence. The point of contrast is in the fact of God's willingness and readiness; further, we are not widows but members of Christ's own body--His bride. Therefore, we can expect the just judge, the Father, to bring us redress from wrong when we pray."

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Tlaloc]

"play acting" & actually acting, as in performing an action, are two different things?

You must preform an action in order to act. Anyway, to act either mean someone is something, or they are putting on a false show of something. So, you either believe God was doing something wicked or something false, right?

But that little quip still avoided the things I said we needed to deal with before going on. If you keep avoiding such things I'll just re-post... Not much else I can do.

 

[VictorLepanto]

"play acting" & actually acting, as in performing an action, are two different things?

You must preform an action in order to act. Anyway, to act either mean someone is something, or they are putting on a false show of something. So, you either believe God was doing something wicked or something false, right?

But that little quip still avoided the things I said we needed to deal with before going on. If you keep avoiding such things I'll just re-post... Not much else I can do.

So. You'd have God really wanting Abraham to sacrifice his son?

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Victor said:

So. You'd have God really wanting Abraham to sacrifice his son?

Yes. Abraham did sacrifice his son. Isaac was offered to the Lord, and the Lord provided a substitute at the last moment.

He asks nothing less than that of you and me, as well. Anything we put before God is an idol. That includes our wives, sons, daughters, self, or a football game. It also includes man's traditions and doctrines, if we teach them as the commandments of God.

He set the example for us.

John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And His example regarding marriage (Emphasis in these passages is mine.):

Ezekiel 23:1-4 NKJV The word of the LORD came again to me, saying: (2) "Son of man, there were two women, The daughters of one mother. (3) They committed harlotry in Egypt, They committed harlotry in their youth; Their breasts were there embraced, Their virgin bosom was there pressed. (4) Their names: Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister; They were Mine, And they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.

And:

Jeremiah 3:14 NKJV "Return, O backsliding children," says the LORD; "for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

And:

Jeremiah 31:31-32 NKJV "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- (32) not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi PolyDoc,

Like you say, polygamy isn't really the answer--the answer is raising our children right. But it doesn't hurt either. I just wouldn't rely upon it to make the real differences in our world. It might function as one of many things we could do to spread the truth though--and have a bunch of cute babies to boot!!! (I LOVE children!)

I also agree that Roman Catholicism is one of the largest cults in the world. I'm surprised that most Christians don't recognize the extreme differences between the teachings of Roman Catholicism and true Christianity. Even their version of Christ differs in origin. Their Jesus is a perpetually virgin mother who is married to God.

Even though I believe that Roman Catholicism is a cult, I also believe that there is the possibility of some Roman Catholics being true Christians despite their religion, as opposed to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who I would find difficult to believe could be Christians.

As far as Christian Polygamy goes, I still have much to learn, but I've been blessed in being in the middle of the movement at its most active during the past dozen years. I look forward to dialoguing and learning from you as well.

John for Christ

One way in which I do think polygamy would be useful is in raising the population of Christians. If we can't do it solely by evangelism, let's make a bunch of little Christians ourselves!

Isn't that exactly what the Muslims did to spread their religion? And the Mormons, until October 6, 1890, when then-LDS President Wilford Woodruf issued the manifesto disavowing plural marriage?

While we American Christians have one or two kids per family so we can "enjoy the good life," those who practice false religions have 10 or 20! And we don't seem to be able to make those one or two into little Christians. Over 85% of kids raised in a home with two parents who take them to church leave church after graduating from high school. In single-mother households, that figure approaches 100%. As my pastor (who won't allow me to teach because of my belief in Biblical Marriage) says, the church is losing ground. We are not even keeping up with the birth rate!

Here's the real solution (emphasis mine):

Ephesians 6:4 NKJV And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

This applies equally to Christian mono and Christian poly families. Too many children either have a father who does not obey this command of the Lord, or have no father at all. And note that it says "fathers," not "Pastors" or "Sunday School teachers" or "churches."

IMHO, and I just barely touched on it in my late-night bleary-eyed post, the real issue is that supposedly Christian America has abandoned our Christian roots. Most (not all) of the Founding Fathers of our nation were Bible believing Christians.

Agreed, polygyny won't "cure what ails us." Like our other social problems, anti-poly is just one more symptom of our increasingly rapid shift away from Christian ideals. It just started ~800 years earlier than most other symptoms, thanks to the Roman Catholic Church adopting (and here's that word again...) pagan Greco-Roman marriage traditions in place of Biblical marriage instructions, and calling the mess "Christian." Martin Luther made a feeble attempt to correct that doctrinal error, but he rightly put most of his effort into more important doctrines such as those things several of us have in our sigs - "sola fide, sola scriptura," etc. And the RCC still had enough political power to thwart his attempts to legitimize polygyny. (Again, that is documented in my Doctoral Dissertation.)

But even so, imbuing something like our breath with an idea that maybe the gods are giving us life through air, doesn't make breathing "not of faith".

It does for the person who believes that.

Even a stopped clock has the right time twice a day... :lol: Nearly any false teaching will contain some elements of truth. Even the JWs, Muslims, and Mormons. And even the Roman Catholic Church, which is the second-largest cult in the world. (Islam is the largest.)

John, I think we are on the same page. You have been studying Biblical Marriage far longer than I, so I would be foolish to ignore anything you might be able to teach me. Thank you, brother!

 

[Anonymous]

Pretending to be wicked, even temporarily, goes beyond merely presenting a hypothetical where He is merely said to be wicked.

Yes, it does.

You maintain that he has pretended to be wicked.

Hi Tlaloc,

Just wanted to comment on one thing in your response to Victor.

Considering that Jesus used the term "actor" (i.e., hypocrite) several times as a pejorative, I'd highly doubt that God would ever "pretend" Himself. Why would He do so? He has no reason to do something that is contrary to His nature to make a point!!! What kind of nonsense would that be?!?


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

"play acting" & actually acting, as in performing an action, are two different things?

You must preform an action in order to act. Anyway, to act either mean someone is something, or they are putting on a false show of something. So, you either believe God was doing something wicked or something false, right?

But that little quip still avoided the things I said we needed to deal with before going on. If you keep avoiding such things I'll just re-post... Not much else I can do.

So. You'd have God really wanting Abraham to sacrifice his son?

Hi Victor (who I understand is now gone?),

Actually, we have God planning to test Abraham to see how far he would go, planning to stop the test before Isaac was sacrificed.

God doesn't act. God is. God commands. God explains. He doesn't act, which is a form of deception, even if it may not be sinful per se. Why should God present Himself as something He is not?


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

Since Victor seems to be gone, I thought I would comment upon how we handled him on the group.

I think we pretty much handled him okay. But we also need to understand that not only was he not a believer in polygamy, but I'm pretty certain he was Roman Catholic as well.

It is important, I believe, to learn as much about people as possible, and to give them the widest latitude when discussing these kind of things. The truth is that few people are convinced by reason and the facts. They are converted to the truth, whatever kind of truth, when they feel it is right. So it helps if we are sensitive to those we dialogue with.

Knowing that Victor was a Roman Catholic may not have helped at all. I don't know. But we could foresee that he would only take the position of his religion, because they do not believe that Scripture takes precedence over the tradition of their church.

Anyway, who knows how we might have opened Victor's eyes a little bit?


John for Christ

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

John for Christ wrote,

I LOVE children!

Me, too! Wish I had discovered Christian Polygyny when I was younger so I could have had more!

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

John for Christ said (about Victor):

I think we pretty much handled him okay. But we also need to understand that not only was he not a believer in polygamy, but I'm pretty certain he was Roman Catholic as well.

I got a PM from someone who knew him on another forum. That person told me that Victor is a Pentecostal-turned-Roman Catholic.

So after that, I kind-of went into full attack mode...I hate false doctrine, it cost me about 30 years of the joy of serving the Lord. And the RCC is almost all false doctrine.

So are most Protestant churches, including (especially?) the evangelical and fundamentalist denominations. I know of none that accept the truth about Biblical Marriage. I grew up in a very legalistic denomination that actually taught that every time you sinned, you "backslid," "lost your salvation," and had to start all over again. So I must have "gotten saved" between 50 and 100 times between age 7 and when I dropped out of Bible college. Sometimes, it lasted a few weeks. Other times, I "backslid" again before getting off my knees...

Oh, did I say I hate false doctrine?

Fortunately, God was eventually able to get it through my brainwashed head that being a Christian is all about having a personal relationship with Him, not about obeying the rules. Especially it is not about obeying those man-made rules.

False doctrine has robbed true Christians of a whole lot of good stuff that our Lord intends for us to have. Like large, stable families instead of the 50% divorce rate and serial monogamy and kids being raised without fathers that is accepted as the norm in America. (Some would call it "serial polygamy," but that just unnecessarily adds to the bad connotations of the word.)

BTW, I hate false doctrine.

But I love my Lord and my God.

 

[Anonymous]

Me, too! Wish I had discovered Christian Polygyny when I was younger so I could have had more!

Ah don't give up, PolyDoc ! It's never too late, ya know !!!

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Anonymous]

I got a PM from someone who knew him on another forum. That person told me that Victor is a Pentecostal-turned-Roman Catholic.

Hi PolyDoc,

That's really sad. I knew a whole family that departed from the truth to Roman Catholicism (and a Protestant-type cult that went Roman Catholic as well).

So after that, I kind-of went into full attack mode...I hate false doctrine, it cost me about 30 years of the joy of serving the Lord. And the RCC is almost all false doctrine.

I feel the same way about RC, but I try to temper my condemnation with love too. I have a close friend that debates with me about RC whenever we are together, because he grew up in a family of die-hard Roman Catholics. We became friends first, and while discussing religion, I came right out and told him I feel that Roman Catholicism is the world's largest cult. But by that time we were quite direct with each other in our discussions, and it didn't offend him too much. I'm praying that eventually he'll see the light. All I can do is present the truth to him in love...

I really find little redeeming value in Roman Catholicism.

So are most Protestant churches, including (especially?) the evangelical and fundamentalist denominations. I know of none that accept the truth about Biblical Marriage. I grew up in a very legalistic denomination that actually taught that every time you sinned, you "backslid," "lost your salvation," and had to start all over again. So I must have "gotten saved" between 50 and 100 times between age 7 and when I dropped out of Bible college. Sometimes, it lasted a few weeks. Other times, I "backslid" again before getting off my knees...

Well, most Christian denominations have some false doctrines. The difference between cults like the Roman Catholic church, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses versus the other Christian denominations is that Christian churches hold to the essential doctrines, while the cults modify or discard those.

Like you, I have yet to attend a church that doesn't have some false doctrine. But then, I don't really know any individuals that don't have some false doctrine we can discover if we probe long enough. I'm sure I probably have some as well, and if I knew what it was, I'd get rid of it. That's why I continuously study and listen for the leading of the Holy Spirit to root out any false doctrines I might believe. He's done a wonderful job!

Oh, did I say I hate false doctrine?

Did you? I can't say I noticed...

Fortunately, God was eventually able to get it through my brainwashed head that being a Christian is all about having a personal relationship with Him, not about obeying the rules. Especially it is not about obeying those man-made rules.

Amen!

False doctrine has robbed true Christians of a whole lot of good stuff that our Lord intends for us to have. Like large, stable families instead of the 50% divorce rate and serial monogamy and kids being raised without fathers that is accepted as the norm in America. (Some would call it "serial polygamy," but that just unnecessarily adds to the bad connotations of the word.)

Amen again! Large stable families are good whether monogamy or polygyny, if we are obeying God's word.

BTW, I hate false doctrine.

Say...I seem to remember you mentioning that before...

But I love my Lord and my God.

Praise God for brethren that truly love the Lord!


John for Christ

 

[Tlaloc]

Yes. Abraham did sacrifice his son. Isaac was offered to the Lord, and the Lord provided a substitute at the last moment.

He asks nothing less than that of you and me, as well. Anything we put before God is an idol. That includes our wives, sons, daughters, self, or a football game. It also includes man's traditions and doctrines, if we teach them as the commandments of God.

Thank you Polydoc. Exactly.

Victor, if you are still hanging around, please reply to what I posted ages ago, you said

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son. Would you conclude from this that God approves of human sacrifice?

And I said

J E S U S

Have you heard of him? He was human, and sacrificed. Or did God not approve of that?

Thankfully Jesus fulfilled the need for sacrifice via death for everyone, we are still called to be living sacrifices...

Did God not approve of the sacrifice of Christ? Did he not require it? Honestly, think about these things for a while.


John,

Considering that Jesus used the term "actor" (i.e., hypocrite) several times as a pejorative, I'd highly doubt that God would ever "pretend" Himself. Why would He do so? He has no reason to do something that is contrary to His nature to make a point!!! What kind of nonsense would that be?!?

I will remember this argument and employ it many times in the future. Thank you very much.




Everyone,

Oh, is he gone... Dang, he was just getting pinned down. There where at least 8 things outstanding that he never even tried to get back to me about yet, and at a guess about 30 things overall that he just happened to overlook. Its really too bad he choose now to leave, we would have had nothing else to talk about but those things he happened to pass by on. Its so unfortunate that he happened to be unable to continue the conversation at this point, we where just getting at the really good stuff... I wonder why he left?

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, is he gone... Dang, he was just getting pinned down. There where at least 8 things outstanding that he never even tried to get back to me about yet, and at a guess about 30 things overall that he just happened to overlook.

You can find him on YouTube. He has his own channel. That's where I originally bumped in to him.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[steve]

i am guessing that he was expelled for being unreasonable and caustic.

pinned down? you can out-argue someone who willnot/cannot deal with reality, but pinning them down is like trying to nail jello to the wall. there is no substance if they will not acknowledge reality.