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Genesis 1 - what is a day?

light is slowing and the known points indicate an asymptotic curve that is a)10,000 years old and b) demonstrates that all matter coalesced from light and a MASSIVE input of energy.. .
Golly gee Billy Bob, I ain’t got no idea what ya just said, but it sure sounds smart!

Any chance you can use the English language for those of us with a disability in the area of ‘understanding’?

The idea of massive amount of energy at a given point in time makes sense. God said it and it was so, if I understand you correctly. And the asymptotic curve? Are you saying it showed up at the same time as this massive energy surge?

Then that would also bring up the question, assuming the energy surge is the catalyst of the creation of earth, was all the mixing batter, eggs and milk ready to go and God just had to turn on the blender? Or was everything just spoken into being? Which it was spoken into being, just trying to figure something out that we really need to watch Gods home movies to see what he did.

The asymptotic curve, I guess I’ll have to study. Some more.
 
Golly gee Billy Bob, I ain’t got no idea what ya just said, but it sure sounds smart!

Any chance you can use the English language for those of us with a disability in the area of ‘understanding’?

The idea of massive amount of energy at a given point in time makes sense. God said it and it was so, if I understand you correctly. And the asymptotic curve? Are you saying it showed up at the same time as this massive energy surge?

Then that would also bring up the question, assuming the energy surge is the catalyst of the creation of earth, was all the mixing batter, eggs and milk ready to go and God just had to turn on the blender? Or was everything just spoken into being? Which it was spoken into being, just trying to figure something out that we really need to watch Gods home movies to see what he did.

The asymptotic curve, I guess I’ll have to study. Some more.
I ain't that smart!

Did a quick search and think j found one source from a few years ago that has an illustration that will help...

http://www.setterfield.org/cdkcurve.html

The rest of that site deals with related info and how plasma physics explains a young earth. Found this guy a few years ago when studying light in the Torah, particularly in Genesis 1 and its relation to Creation.

Makes a lot of sense.
 
I ain't that smart!

Did a quick search and think j found one source from a few years ago that has an illustration that will help...

http://www.setterfield.org/cdkcurve.html

The rest of that site deals with related info and how plasma physics explains a young earth. Found this guy a few years ago when studying light in the Torah, particularly in Genesis 1 and its relation to Creation.

Makes a lot of sense.
What I found in that report was;

In many astronomical applications, however, it has proven more convenient to use the
formulation of (1 + z) for the description of reality rather than just z, so that (5) becomes (1 + z) = {[1+(v/c)]/ √[1-(v2/c2)]}

I should have thought about that all along.

I don’t have time to go they it tonight, but I am going to see what I can take from that article. This is a fun discussion, but it has made me dig in quite a bit.
 
Ha! Totally! Usually not wise to take a conflicting opinion with Samuel! I might put $100 on Samuel too! LOL!
Hmmm, I think I see an opportunity here. I'll match that with $200 on JAG.

Now: The earth is young because of the aliens. It's all about the aliens. Saw it on Youtube somewhere so it's true.

Now laugh me out of the house but you two can hand me that $200 as I leave... :)
 
The God-fearing professional scientists who study space-time, and who believe in the inerrancy of scripture, have already thought, "Maybe God created it *appearing* old from the start? Like it's really only 10K years old and it only *appears* 4.7 billion years old!"
The earth does not appear 4.7 billion years old. So it is not at all deceptive for God to create it as it is today - he didn't make it look old. He just made it as it is. As I stated above, it only appears old IF you presuppose it is old and then interpret all the evidence to match that predetermined position. If you see it as young, it looks young. So, to a certain extent, this is correct:
Interesting about things on the quantum level is that you see the things you measure for (observe). If one wants to measure for an old earth they will find an old earth, a new new. It all depends on the the reality of what one expects to collapse into the probability one seeks.
However, there's a lot of evidence from many different fields of science to show that it's young also, evidence that cannot be readily explained in an old earth scenario and is generally overlooked by those who are determined to see it as old.

Take the carbon-dated dinosaur bones example I shared above. Actually read the link. This is serious science, with analysis conducted by respected laboratories, and published at a regular scientific conference by real scientists.

However, the moment it was clear what they were saying, the paper was suppressed. Deleted from the conference webpages. Then the lab they used refused to process any more samples for them.

This is how science works. This is fundamentally why the old-earth scientists have more journal publications than the young-earth ones (which I'm just taking @JustAGuy's word for, I haven't checked that out). Because it's almost completely impossible to publish anything that disagrees with the prevailing dogma. I know - I've published papers myself (in other areas) and have seen it everywhere.

This is how the peer-review process works. Any paper you want to publish in a prestigious journal gets sent to other well-recognised scientists in that field to look over. They recommend whether to publish, publish with amendments, completely rewrite and then consider again, or reject entirely (I've been a peer reviewer myself in my field). If the peer reviewers say it's questionable, it never sees the light of day.

In addition, when you're working at a mainstream academic institution (university etc), papers have to get past your own internal reviewers before they even get submitted to a journal. And you can't even get the time to write it unless you get someone to pay for your time to do the research, and who's going to fund that work? So you generally can't even get a paper like that written and submitted.

This process works well to maintain the quality of published work that builds on the existing accepted ideology. However, it means that anybody with a novel minority viewpoint is often shut down before it can be published. As a result, it is impossible to publish papers that support a young-earth position - they are generally rejected out of hand, however sound the science may be. This situation is so serious that CMI had to start their own scientific journal, the "Journal of Creation", as a place to actually publish this work, because it is impossible to get it published in the mainstream journals.

For the same reason, it's really difficult to publish anything that disagrees with anthropogenic global warming - because global warming (however problematic) is the prevailing dogma. So you can't get research funding to study anything else, if you do you'll struggle to get it past organisational reviewers, then even if it makes it to a journal it's unlikely to get published. So it's not just about creation, this is a fundamental flaw in the entire academic system.

The whole system is built to perpetuate the current understanding and discourage outside-the-box thinking.

Galileo would have never got his work published if this system had existed back then.
 
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The earth does not appear 4.7 billion years old. So it is not at all deceptive for God to create it as it is today - he didn't make it look old. He just made it as it is. As I stated above, it only appears old IF you presuppose it is old and then interpret all the evidence to match that predetermined position. If you see it as young, it looks young. So, to a certain extent, this is correct:

However, there's a lot of evidence from many different fields of science to show that it's young also, evidence that cannot be readily explained in an old earth scenario and is generally overlooked by those who are determined to see it as old.

Take the carbon-dated dinosaur bones example I shared above. Actually read the link. This is serious science, with analysis conducted by respected laboratories, and published at a regular scientific conference by real scientists.

However, the moment it was clear what they were saying, the paper was suppressed. Deleted from the conference webpages. Then the lab they used refused to process any more samples for them.

This is how science works. This is fundamentally why the old-earth scientists have more journal publications than the young-earth ones (which I'm just taking @JustAGuy's word for, I haven't checked that out). Because it's almost completely impossible to publish anything that disagrees with the prevailing dogma. I know - I've published papers myself (in other areas) and have seen it everywhere.

This is how the peer-review process works. Any paper you want to publish in a prestigious journal gets sent to other well-recognised scientists in that field to look over. They recommend whether to publish, publish with amendments, completely rewrite and then consider again, or reject entirely (I've been a peer reviewer myself in my field). If the peer reviewers say it's questionable, it never sees the light of day.

In addition, when you're working at a mainstream academic institution (university etc), papers have to get past your own internal reviewers before they even get submitted to a journal. And you can't even get the time to write it unless you get someone to pay for your time to do the research, and who's going to fund that work? So you generally can't even get a paper like that written and submitted.

This process works well to maintain the quality of published work that builds on the existing accepted ideology. However, it means that anybody with a novel minority viewpoint is often shut down before it can be published. As a result, it is impossible to publish papers that support a young-earth position - they are generally rejected out of hand, however sound the science may be. This situation is so serious that CMI had to start their own scientific journal, the "Journal of Creation", as a place to actually publish this work, because it is impossible to get it published in the mainstream journals.

For the same reason, it's really difficult to publish anything that disagrees with anthropogenic global warming - because global warming (however problematic) is the prevailing dogma. So you can't get research funding to study anything else, if you do you'll struggle to get it past organisational reviewers, then even if it makes it to a journal it's unlikely to get published. So it's not about creation, this is a fundamental flaw in the entire academic system.

The whole system is built to perpetuate the current understanding and discourage outside-the-box thinking.

I think there was a documentary that covered this or something very similar a few years back. I think it was called Expelled.
@FollowingHim I'm curious if you've seen it and given your experience your opinion on it. It sounds like, from what you said above, it actually is quite accurate.
 
For those who need a research paper:

http://www.setterfield.org/cx1.html
I'll try to summarise this in laymans terms.

The main problem with a young-earth view, when it comes to astronomy, is "how did the light from the stars reach earth?". We know with a fair degree of confidence that many stars are multiple millions of light-years away - ie, they are so far away that it would take millions of years for light to get here. So if the earth was 6000 years old, and light started to come from them the moment they were created, we just wouldn't see them and the sky would be largely black. That is a serious objection.

The easy answer to this is "God just made all the light en-route to earth". And that is entirely plausible, God can do whatever he likes, he could certainly do this. But that would mean that all the interesting things that we observe, such as supernovae (explosions of stars), never really happened and are just an artificial film that God made and projected onto earth for our entertainment - and confusion, as we think they're real. So basically he'd be lying to us. Would He do this? It's an entirely plausible explanation but just doesn't feel right for a lot of reasons.

The other major possibility is that light moved at essentially infinite speed at creation, so the light from the stars got here instantly when they were created. But since then the speed of light has been slowing down, so that now it looks like it would have taken millions of years to get here. We know that things tend to decay over time, so it is not unreasonable to think that light might be getting "tired" and gradually slowing as the entire universe gradually decays from a perfect state at Creation. But did this really happen, or is it just a made-up story to explain away the evidence?

This paper (here's the most direct link) analyses in great detail every measurement of the speed of light that the authors could obtain, taken from the 17th century until today. Obviously measurement techniques have improved over time, so the author is very careful to compare measurements taken with one measurement technique to each other, then compare measurements taken with the newer technique to each other, and carefully use statistics to determine to what degree each value can be relied upon. The bulk of the paper is explaining the raw data used and the very careful analysis that was undertaken on it, read the paper for the details.

The two main conclusions, strongly supported by the evidence, are:
  1. The speed of light is clearly slowing down. However:
  2. It is not slowing at a linear rate. Rather, the speed of light slowed rapidly in the past, but the rate of slowing is reducing.
Conclusion 2 means that if you went back into time, the speed of light would get faster and faster very rapidly, and approach infinite speed within a few thousand years. So it is completely consistent with young-earth creation and strongly supports the theory that light began with near-infinite speed and has been decaying ever since.

Furthermore, the speed of light is a basic value in physics that actually affects a whole lot more than just light. For one small example, it also affects the rate of decay of radioisotopes. So, if the speed of light was higher in the past, then radioactive materials also decayed faster in the past. This stuffs up every radiometric dating method and makes them all way overestimate ages.
 
I think there was a documentary that covered this or something very similar a few years back. I think it was called Expelled.
@FollowingHim I'm curious if you've seen it and given your experience your opinion on it. It sounds like, from what you said above, it actually is quite accurate.
Haven't watched it yet, but it sounds worth watching. Here it is, so I don't forget to watch it myself:
 
Holy Toledo this is a fast moving thread!

@FollowingHim - I concur with your experience on getting published in scientific journals (not that you’re looking for concurrance). Getting an “outlying” finding published is quite difficult.

BTW, I believe the RTB scientists who were published did so before they “came out” as old earth, intelligent design folks but need to double check.

PS, you all rock! Love the light speed curves! More tomorrow.
 
Haven't watched it yet, but it sounds worth watching. Here it is, so I don't forget to watch it myself:

I just rewatched it. While it focuses specifically on Intelligent Design and the logical end of Darwinism it does talk about scientists and academics that are refused grant money, refused publishing in journals, or even fired from their positions for not staying within the Darwinist world view.
 
I'll try to summarise this in laymans terms.

The main problem with a young-earth view, when it comes to astronomy, is "how did the light from the stars reach earth?". We know with a fair degree of confidence that many stars are multiple millions of light-years away - ie, they are so far away that it would take millions of years for light to get here. So if the earth was 6000 years old, and light started to come from them the moment they were created, we just wouldn't see them and the sky would be largely black. That is a serious objection.

The easy answer to this is "God just made all the light en-route to earth". And that is entirely plausible, God can do whatever he likes, he could certainly do this. But that would mean that all the interesting things that we observe, such as supernovae (explosions of stars), never really happened and are just an artificial film that God made and projected onto earth for our entertainment - and confusion, as we think they're real. So basically he'd be lying to us. Would He do this? It's an entirely plausible explanation but just doesn't feel right for a lot of reasons.

The other major possibility is that light moved at essentially infinite speed at creation, so the light from the stars got here instantly when they were created. But since then the speed of light has been slowing down, so that now it looks like it would have taken millions of years to get here. We know that things tend to decay over time, so it is not unreasonable to think that light might be getting "tired" and gradually slowing as the entire universe gradually decays from a perfect state at Creation. But did this really happen, or is it just a made-up story to explain away the evidence?

This paper (here's the most direct link) analyses in great detail every measurement of the speed of light that the authors could obtain, taken from the 17th century until today. Obviously measurement techniques have improved over time, so the author is very careful to compare measurements taken with one measurement technique to each other, then compare measurements taken with the newer technique to each other, and carefully use statistics to determine to what degree each value can be relied upon. The bulk of the paper is explaining the raw data used and the very careful analysis that was undertaken on it, read the paper for the details.

The two main conclusions, strongly supported by the evidence, are:
  1. The speed of light is clearly slowing down. However:
  2. It is not slowing at a linear rate. Rather, the speed of light slowed rapidly in the past, but the rate of slowing is reducing.
Conclusion 2 means that if you went back into time, the speed of light would get faster and faster very rapidly, and approach infinite speed within a few thousand years. So it is completely consistent with young-earth creation and strongly supports the theory that light began with near-infinite speed and has been decaying ever since.

Furthermore, the speed of light is a basic value in physics that actually affects a whole lot more than just light. For one small example, it also affects the rate of decay of radioisotopes. So, if the speed of light was higher in the past, then radioactive materials also decayed faster in the past. This stuffs up every radiometric dating method and makes them all way overestimate ages.

Thank you for such a nice summary. Far better than I could have done.
 
Holy Toledo this is a fast moving thread!

Don't worry, it will slow down over time..... I read a journal paper one time on the half life of forum threads compared to radioisotopes...;)
 
The earth does not appear 4.7 billion years old. So it is not at all deceptive for God to create it as it is today - he didn't make it look old. He just made it as it is. As I stated above, it only appears old IF you presuppose it is old and then interpret all the evidence to match that predetermined position. If you see it as young, it looks young. So, to a certain extent, this is correct:

However, there's a lot of evidence from many different fields of science to show that it's young also, evidence that cannot be readily explained in an old earth scenario and is generally overlooked by those who are determined to see it as old.

Take the carbon-dated dinosaur bones example I shared above. Actually read the link. This is serious science, with analysis conducted by respected laboratories, and published at a regular scientific conference by real scientists.

However, the moment it was clear what they were saying, the paper was suppressed. Deleted from the conference webpages. Then the lab they used refused to process any more samples for them.

This is how science works. This is fundamentally why the old-earth scientists have more journal publications than the young-earth ones (which I'm just taking @JustAGuy's word for, I haven't checked that out). Because it's almost completely impossible to publish anything that disagrees with the prevailing dogma. I know - I've published papers myself (in other areas) and have seen it everywhere.

This is how the peer-review process works. Any paper you want to publish in a prestigious journal gets sent to other well-recognised scientists in that field to look over. They recommend whether to publish, publish with amendments, completely rewrite and then consider again, or reject entirely (I've been a peer reviewer myself in my field). If the peer reviewers say it's questionable, it never sees the light of day.

In addition, when you're working at a mainstream academic institution (university etc), papers have to get past your own internal reviewers before they even get submitted to a journal. And you can't even get the time to write it unless you get someone to pay for your time to do the research, and who's going to fund that work? So you generally can't even get a paper like that written and submitted.

This process works well to maintain the quality of published work that builds on the existing accepted ideology. However, it means that anybody with a novel minority viewpoint is often shut down before it can be published. As a result, it is impossible to publish papers that support a young-earth position - they are generally rejected out of hand, however sound the science may be. This situation is so serious that CMI had to start their own scientific journal, the "Journal of Creation", as a place to actually publish this work, because it is impossible to get it published in the mainstream journals.

For the same reason, it's really difficult to publish anything that disagrees with anthropogenic global warming - because global warming (however problematic) is the prevailing dogma. So you can't get research funding to study anything else, if you do you'll struggle to get it past organisational reviewers, then even if it makes it to a journal it's unlikely to get published. So it's not just about creation, this is a fundamental flaw in the entire academic system.

The whole system is built to perpetuate the current understanding and discourage outside-the-box thinking.

Galileo would have never got his work published if this system had existed back then.

I agree with your position that the focus on the young earth is just as valid as the old in observation attempts. I don't think my comment made that clear.

"Interesting about things on the quantum level is that you see the things you measure for (observe). If one wants to measure for an old earth they will find an old earth, a new new. It all depends on the the reality of what one expects to collapse into the probability one seeks."

Basically saying if one wants to measure for a young earth they will find a young earth.
 
I ain't that smart!

Did a quick search and think j found one source from a few years ago that has an illustration that will help...

http://www.setterfield.org/cdkcurve.html

The rest of that site deals with related info and how plasma physics explains a young earth. Found this guy a few years ago when studying light in the Torah, particularly in Genesis 1 and its relation to Creation.

Makes a lot of sense.

I'm a simple man. I see Barry Setterfield linked to, I like.

@FollowingHim Great rundown!
 
I agree with your position that the focus on the young earth is just as valid as the old in observation attempts. I don't think my comment made that clear.

"Interesting about things on the quantum level is that you see the things you measure for (observe). If one wants to measure for an old earth they will find an old earth, a new new. It all depends on the the reality of what one expects to collapse into the probability one seeks."

Basically saying if one wants to measure for a young earth they will find a young earth.
I know that was what you were saying. I was partly agreeing but also disagreeing with you.

Yes, to some degree, you will find what you are looking for. But that's not a good thing.

In many cases, the only reason that you see what you expected to see, is because you consciously or unconsciously ignored the evidence that disagrees with you. There is a lot of evidence that the earth is young, not old, and that is very hard to make sense of in an old earth scenario - you can only believe in an old earth by either ignoring this evidence unintentionally (because you didn't know it exists), intentionally (because you chose not to look into it because it made you uncomfortable), or by rationalising it away (coming up with a complex explanation for how it might still fit into your preferred view).

But if one view is true, and one is false, ultimately the burden of evidence will point in one direction and not the other.

In this case, there is evidence that appears on the surface to point to an old earth (e.g. the starlight issue discussed above), and evidence that points to a young earth (e.g. polystrate fossils (such as trees that cross supposedly "millions of years" of layers of rock but were buried without rotting), and the rate at which the moon is moving away from the earth (at the current rate of movement, the moon would have been touching the earth 1.5 billion years ago)). On examining this evidence scientifically, you will soon find the weight of evidence pointing in one direction rather than the other. And that is on top of the scriptural account, which is very clear in the plain reading and which must be reinterpreted substantially to fit an old earth.

So yes, if people want to find an old earth, they can think they've proved it. And if people want to find a young earth, they can think they've proved it too. But that's just because people don't like to be challenged.

If someone is truly seeking the truth, and considering all sides of both scripture and science, they'll find that the vast weight of evidence points towards one answer that is true.
 
I know that was what you were saying. I was partly agreeing but also disagreeing with you.

Yes, to some degree, you will find what you are looking for. But that's not a good thing.

In many cases, the only reason that you see what you expected to see, is because you consciously or unconsciously ignored the evidence that disagrees with you. There is a lot of evidence that the earth is young, not old, and that is very hard to make sense of in an old earth scenario - you can only believe in an old earth by either ignoring this evidence unintentionally (because you didn't know it exists), intentionally (because you chose not to look into it because it made you uncomfortable), or by rationalising it away (coming up with a complex explanation for how it might still fit into your preferred view).

But if one view is true, and one is false, ultimately the burden of evidence will point in one direction and not the other.

In this case, there is evidence that appears on the surface to point to an old earth (e.g. the starlight issue discussed above), and evidence that points to a young earth (e.g. polystrate fossils (such as trees that cross supposedly "millions of years" of layers of rock but were buried without rotting), and the rate at which the moon is moving away from the earth (at the current rate of movement, the moon would have been touching the earth 1.5 billion years ago)). On examining this evidence scientifically, you will soon find the weight of evidence pointing in one direction rather than the other. And that is on top of the scriptural account, which is very clear in the plain reading and which must be reinterpreted substantially to fit an old earth.

So yes, if people want to find an old earth, they can think they've proved it. And if people want to find a young earth, they can think they've proved it too. But that's just because people don't like to be challenged.

If someone is truly seeking the truth, and considering all sides of both scripture and science, they'll find that the vast weight of evidence points towards one answer that is true.

I agree. Eventually the Truth will prevail.
 
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