God's "Permissable" Will ???

[CecilW]

It was the way the pastor made polygamy appear because of God's "permissive" will. Does this "perfect" will vs "permissive" take us back to the strife over God's original intents? Brothers it's a blessing to be discipled.

The answer is in a slight adjustment in terms. God's permissive will says that apples and bananas are both good for me, and I'm welcome to choose. Not that apples are perfect, bananas are not, but He permits me to eat them.

The poly vs mono argument, saying that mono is perfect isn't best answered in this set of terms. A better answer is that Absent a clear statement to that effect, you refuse to argue His perfect will on the subject, but will concede for purposes of discussion that it MAY (not definitely IS, but MAY) be perfect. However, we don't live in a perfect world.

In a perfect world, there would be no need for adoption. Each child would have a perfect family in which to grow up, never broken by death, strife, or abuse. We don't live in a perfect world. (Now here is the key phrase...) Adoption is God's perfect provision for an imperfect world, so that each child may be raised with both a mom and dad, as God ordained normal and healthy.

Similarly, in the perfect world he suggests, the demographics would always be PERFECTLY balanced, as He declared it is NOT good for mankind to be alone (calling the 'equal perfection of celibacy' idea into strong question), and perfectly matched couple WOULD find each other throughout the length and breadth of this world and then have a perfect marriage and long lifer. We don't live in a perfect world. PM is "God's perfect provision for an imperfect world", so that each man and woman CAN live in a covenant marriage family.

To the usual followup question "What about china, where there are too many men and not enough women?" Two answers should suffice: First, "Unh-huh. And there are starving children in N. Korea. Does refusing to eat your own peas and carrots feed them?" Second, "That is not the result of nature, but of social engineering and, specifically, state sponsored abortion. Don't lay something so obviously Anti-God on God!"

 

[steve]

My God is not thwarted by rebellious human will.

i do not think that YHWH has any desire that mankind be in the mess that it is in. it would seem that His desires can be thwarted by rebelious human will.

 

[Anonymous]

i do not think that YHWH has any desire that mankind be in the mess that it is in. it would seem that His desires can be thwarted by rebelious human will.

I've read the last chapters of the Book. His plan is working out.

 

[Anonymous]

I've read the last chapters of the Book. His plan is working out.

True

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[sola scriptura]

My God is not thwarted by rebellious human will.

i do not think that YHWH has any desire that mankind be in the mess that it is in. it would seem that His desires can be thwarted by rebelious human will.

Mankind is in the mess they are in because of their sin nature. Ultimately, however, every thing that occurs here on earth, both good and bad, will eventually bring glory to our Lord, we just don't understand it yet. That's why God is God, and we're not!

 

[steve]

I've read the last chapters of the Book. His plan is working out.

of course, but i do not believe that the amount of devastation is His desire.

Yeshua's prayer was/is " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
his desire has not been honoured because of our unwillingness.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Yeshua's prayer was/is " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Too bad we have not been able to convince you of the Judeo-Christian view that such a text as that reveals the perfect will of God that God (Yahuweh) and Jesus/Yeshua are perfectly one and also distinct. As Jesus/Yeshua said: "I and (duality) the Father are ONE (singularity)" (John 10:30).

Two issues arise when discussing the revealed will of God and the secret will of God or the perfect and permissive will of God. Two truths must be held in tension: One is what Paul said when he said: God "works all things (not some things or most things but all things) after the counsel of his will" (Eph. 1:11). And then the second truth that "let no one say I am being tempted by God for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one" (James 1:13).

Throughout the history of true Christianity there has always been a tension in these two truths. Too much of an emphasis on sovereignty and the perfect will leads to an idea that God is the maker and cause of sin. Too much of an emphasis on only the revealed will leads to the idea that God is not in control and that man is the one in control of himself with absolute ability to choose even contrary to his own nature. Both sides of that are out of balance.

The truth is more like a thrust of both truths with the determination of which one to apply by examination of the particular situation. Someone is despair and without hope needs a good dose of God's sovereignty and the point of his perfect will is being carried out. A person in pride and arrogance thinking life hinges upon their decisions and effort needs too a good dose of God's sovereignty to humble them. On the other hand, someone who is mad at God, and blaming him for their own sin and demise needs a good strong dose of the revealed will of God where he commands us to make wise choices, holy choices, and to take responsibility. Someone who is hurting because their family member has just been murdered needs a time of justice and a dose of God's revealed will with later on down the road a gradual dose of instruction in God's perfect will to come to terms with reality and to move back under a grace sphere.

We have to keep one ESSENTIAL point in mind. The Bible was not written as an ACADEMIC text on these matters. It was all written in situational contexts geared towards real daily issues people were facing. All of the letters of Paul were pastoral in nature dealing with problems in people's lives or in the congregations of believers. When we pull one truth out like God's sovereignty and use it or apply it in the wrong circumstance we damage others. When we pull out the revealed will and use it wrongly we damage others. As Solomon said: there is a time and season for everything, and that includes doctrinal application. Whether to apply God's perfect will or his revealed will doctrine is best determined by knowing what the person on the other end needs, which is too a fulfillment of the law of love your neighbor as Christ loves us.

 

[steve]

Too bad we have not been able to convince you of the Judeo-Christian view that such a text as that reveals the perfect will of God that God (Yahuweh) and Jesus/Yeshua are perfectly one and also distinct. As Jesus/Yeshua said: "I and (duality) the Father are ONE (singularity)" (John 10:30).

tertullian is not at all my plumbline, but not even he believed your understanding of the nature of Yeshua.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Hummmmmm....I thought that text I referenced was a quote from the Bible, not our beloved friend Tertullian. But, even so, the immediate disciples of the apostles did speak of Yeshua being God in the flesh. It was, and still is, the confession of all Judeo-Christians from the time of the earliest disciples until down to this very day. It is one of those doctrines where the perfect will of God and the revealed will of God coalesce. But, even so with that God does permit some to reject him and his lordship and thus operate in that sense of his permissive will.

 

[steve]

Hummmmmm....I thought that text I referenced was a quote from the Bible, not our beloved friend Tertullian.

that does not make any sense, i was saying that tertullian disagrees with your interpretation of that verse.

But, even so, the immediate disciples of the apostles did speak of Yeshua being God in the flesh. It was, and still is, the confession of all Judeo-Christians from the time of the earliest disciples until down to this very day

not so, but if i repeat the facts given you about theos in the messianics thread, my response will disappear.

But, even so with that God does permit some to reject him and his lordship and thus operate in that sense of his permissive will.

you know that i do not reject Yeshua's lordship, i reject his YHWHship.
(which also was tertullian's position)

you know that you have injected a subject into this thread that is not allowed in open discussion. i will respond to you more fully in the only forum where truth can be addressed, the messianics section.

 

[Scarecrow]

"i do not think that YHWH has any desire that mankind be in the mess that it is in"

So why wasn't there a fence around the tree?

 

[steve]

So why wasn't there a fence around the tree?

He chose to not have a relationship with beings that had no opportunity to fail.

 

[Anonymous]

Rev 13:8-9
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.

God is not surprised, disappointed or disillusioned by humanities behavior. He prepared for it ahead of time. He desires that all men repent and made provision for that possibility.

 

[steve]

if my actions, reactions, thoughts can please Him, then some of my actions, reactions, thoughts must be able to displease Him.
no matter how much He knew beforhand.

and of course that applies to us corporately as well.

 

[steve]

just in case anyone missed my edit;

But, even so with that God does permit some to reject him and his lordship and thus operate in that sense of his permissive will.

you know that i do not reject Yeshua's lordship, i reject his YHWHship.
(which also was tertullian's position)

you know that you have injected a subject into this thread that is not allowed in open discussion. i will respond to you more fully in the only forum where truth can be addressed, the messianics section.

[/quote]

 

[CecilW]

Making reference to the Raw Diet thread ...

I'm glad that God's permissible will allows me to enjoy chocolate! :lol:

 

[steve]

Making reference to the Raw Diet thread ...

I'm glad that God's permissible will allows me to enjoy chocolate! :lol:

and how much does His permissible will allow you to partake of before it becomes cecil's presumptive will? :lol:

i draw the line at one pound.

.

.

.

.per hour :!: :lol: :lol:

 

[CecilW]

Works for me. I do try manfully not to exceed that quota very often. :roll:

 

[Scarecrow]

There is a difference between failing and transgressing.

Failing...to commit an error...which is not sinful:

Job 4:17-19 'Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker? Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error; how much more those who dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, who are crushed like the moth.

Transgressing...to defy and act in opposition...sinful:

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

God made man knowing that mankind would fall; it was inevitable. Passage after passage talks about "before the foundations of the earth were set". Other passages relate that for a time Jesus was brought lower than the angels (became human). If mankind is lower than the angels, and the angels have sinned; how much more likely is it that mankind would sin?

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Not only that, but He predestined those who would be elect.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

...think of it this way...you pick up a dime store novel and begin reading it...you don't know what will happen next so to you it appears that things are happening according to the will of the characters...based on their decisions; yet the author of the book knows every word, every sentence, and yes what every character will do. God wrote the book, we are merely the characters.

 

[steve]

transgression is a form of failure. to commit sin is a failure to obey.

...think of it this way...you pick up a dime store novel and begin reading it...you don't know what will happen next so to you it appears that things are happening according to the will of the characters...based on their decisions; yet the author of the book knows every word, every sentence, and yes what every character will do. God wrote the book, we are merely the characters.

how sad.
may you enjoy your predestined life.