Meat His Instruction in Two Words

[Mark C]

Most here will already know that I'm not a proponent of confining the Word of Yahuah 'as Written' to a ghetto reserved for "messianic jews and hebrew roots [pagans]" - but this week's midrash would be unwelcome otherwise anyway. Perhaps more importantly, the "Big Finish" to the Book of Deuteronomy blows so much of the 'twisting' of the Whore Church to smithereens that it gets ignored anyway, so here goes...

Parsha Nitzavim ["you are standing THIS Day..."] contains what I contend is one of the most graphic and undeniable refutations of some of THE Biggest Lies in all xtianity...things that are NOT in the Real Book, but get taught in sun-god-day skool as if they actually were.

It also contains THE singular Two Word Summary of not only His Instruction, but how to "rightly divide the Word," which applies even if if it even appears to the 'uneducated and untaught' as if there is some conflict.

If you've ever wondered how the Big Lie of the Whore of Babylon get spread, this is a good start:

Mark Call – Parsha “Nitzavim” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa

Parsha Nitzavim [“you are standing THIS Day…” from Deuteronomy 29:9 through chapter 30] contains what Mark Call of Shabbat Shalom Mesa contend is one of the most graphic and unden…

hebrewnationonline.com

Parsha “Nitzavim” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa | Come out of her, My people…

 

[Keith Martin]

I have numerous comments, Mark.

• The first is one I've expressed to you in the past -- I highly recommend that anyone put off by the way you write (which comes across as condemnatory and entirely dismissive of any point of view but yours) be certain to listen to one of your voice recordings. Having done so numerous times, I have little trouble 'hearing' you in your own voice as I read what you write. Your speaking has a consistent tone to it, which, yes, does contain a high degree of unmovable certainty based on the breadth of your studies, but it also resonates with wide-ranging notes of compassion for your fellow human beings and the places where they stand on this particular day.
• I don't agree that this is a ghetto. I've described it instead as the All-Torah-All-the-Time Playground, and if enough people in Biblical Families who believe as I do existed to warrant a Universal Reconciliation Playground, I would be honored to have that sandbox to work and play in. You and others who have this avenue to self-express in aren't being punished but instead being recognized for the strength of your zeal. No one considers you to be lepers -- it's just that TK or non-TK is a side issue within an organization that, at least at present, purports to be primarily dedicated to promoting patriarchy and polygyny. It's ecumenical in that sense, for the time being, anyway. [My own longstanding prediction is that, inevitably based on the nature of things as they are in this organization, the TKs will entirely take over, and the ATAT Playground will become the centerpiece of biblicalfamilies.org; just be patient.]
• I agree that Keeping Torah is not too hard. I further agree that it's a purposeful Big Lie and that it was originally promulgated by the Adversary through the lips, arms and legs of Constantine and his ilk: Whore Church is quite appropriate.
• Furthermore, it's part of the mission of the Whore Church to keep its serfs convinced that obeying Yah's Commandments is impossible. The evidence of this is that, every time the serfs have given strong indication that they are liable to bypass the Whore Church to have direct relationships with YHWH, that Church manufactures yet another false requirement that that Church hopes will either be insurmountable or at least be perceived by the serfs as unattainable. Martin Luther's testimony about Romans bears witness to the Game being rigged to prevent even the most dedicated and/or pious among us ever reaching the experience of possessing full assurance.
• Lastly, though, I'll offer this: the hill I've yet to hear those who promote Torah as the answer to everything: when does YHWH subsequently revoke what he spoke through the 'lips' of his prophet in Isaiah 1?

 

[Mark C]

Lots of thoughtful commentary there, Keith, thanks. But I'll start briefly with this:

...I'll offer this: the hill I've yet to hear those who promote Torah as the answer to everything: when does YHWH subsequently revoke what he spoke through the 'lips' of his prophet in Isaiah 1?

Which part specifically?

If it's the part about "I've had enough...of 'futile sacrifices,' YOUR new moons, YOUR appointed feasts," etc...I think we've "been there, done that." Emphasis on the fact that they aren't HIS, and He explains why.

A lot of the rest sounds like warnings that are apropos today. So - which verse(s)?

As for the rest, obviously I largely agree.

 

[Keith Martin]

Lots of thoughtful commentary there, Keith, thanks. But I'll start briefly with this:

Which part specifically?

If it's the part about "I've had enough...of 'futile sacrifices,' YOUR new moons, YOUR appointed feasts," etc...I think we've "been there, done that." Emphasis on the fact that they aren't HIS, and He explains why.

A lot of the rest sounds like warnings that are apropos today. So - which verse(s)?

As for the rest, obviously I largely agree.

Thank you for that. My version [Concordant Version of the Old Testament] doesn't say "futile" but just "many" sacrifices, nor does it indicate that the remaining prohibitions are from engaging in "your" moons, sabbaths, feasts, seasons, etc. My version, translated as closely as possible from Hebrew to English, prohibits these things altogether, not just ones devised by men. I read it as time for cessation.

The two reasons given throughout Isaiah appear to be forsaking YHWH by worshipping and sacrificing to false gods; and abominable behavior, including eating of swine.

My question is, when does Isaiah or anything subsequently written in Scripture indicate that a return to offerings, fasting, sabbaths, moons, feasts, etc., are to be resumed? All I find that approximates what will provide redemption first shows up in Isaiah 9 in reference to the coming Messiah.

 

[Mark C]

The word 'tzebach' ('sacrifice') in Isaiah 1:1, for one, is used in the plural possessive form, i.e., as a southerner (me) would say, "Ya'll's sacrifices..."

The two reasons given throughout Isaiah appear to be forsaking YHWH by worshipping and sacrificing to false gods; and abominable behavior, including eating of swine.

Absolutely.

...when does Isaiah or anything subsequently written in Scripture indicate that a return to offerings, fasting, sabbaths, moons, feasts, etc., are to be resumed?

That is admi9ttedly a 'hot button' for many. I consider it interesting, but less important than the issue of what has been done already:

REPLACING His instituted worship with pagan forms; call it "your moedim," if that makes more sense. Things He said to keep "forever," and "throughout your generations," and in "all" of your dwelling places: His Sabbaths, His Pesach, His Shavuot, His (coming now) fall feasts, like Yom Teruah (which is the shofar blast that ultimately starts the 'final countdown,' aka 'first trump' in some renderings) followed by Yom Kippur (which has some pretty stirring warnings associated with it) and finally the marriage feast of Sukkot (when He was actually born).

Not "easter" (for that fertility goddess) and xmas, etc.

But, more specifically to your question, there is a LONG description of what certainly LOOKS like a future 'temple', with cooking areas for offerings and His cohenim, in the final chapters (40 on) in Ezekiel.

It doesn't look like that's already happened to me (some of the "all done in 70 AD crowd" would argue.)

 

[JudahYAHites]

Musical interlude...

This song came to mind along with your message the lyrics are appropriate... enjoy

Now back to the topic at hand...

Will be chiming in later YAH willing

 

[JudahYAHites]

Most here will already know that I'm not a proponent of confining the Word of Yahuah 'as Written' to a ghetto reserved for "messianic jews and hebrew roots [pagans]" - but this week's midrash would be unwelcome otherwise anyway. Perhaps more importantly, the "Big Finish" to the Book of Deuteronomy blows so much of the 'twisting' of the Whore Church to smithereens that it gets ignored anyway, so here goes...

Parsha Nitzavim ["you are standing THIS Day..."] contains what I contend is one of the most graphic and undeniable refutations of some of THE Biggest Lies in all xtianity...things that are NOT in the Real Book, but get taught in sun-god-day skool as if they actually were.

It also contains THE singular Two Word Summary of not only His Instruction, but how to "rightly divide the Word," which applies even if if it even appears to the 'uneducated and untaught' as if there is some conflict.

If you've ever wondered how the Big Lie of the Whore of Babylon get spread, this is a good start:

Mark Call – Parsha “Nitzavim” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa

Parsha Nitzavim [“you are standing THIS Day…” from Deuteronomy 29:9 through chapter 30] contains what Mark Call of Shabbat Shalom Mesa contend is one of the most graphic and unden…

hebrewnationonline.com

Parsha “Nitzavim” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa | Come out of her, My people…

I have for a while now referred to anyone who follows a doctrine that explains a way to circumvent and NOT keep the commandments of YAH as a "talmudian".

The simplicity that is in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH is perverted by so many obtuse doctrinal pirouetting, we really have to become as little children to see and understand.

I was never referred to as a torah keeper or a judaizer until coming on to this platform, and I have spoken with many believers before under the banner of "Come let us reason together..." to simply obey "Christ" and stop dancing round what is written.

I believe there is a great amount of cognitive dissonance regarding simple obedience to the commandments of YAH because of the "talmudian" mindset taught, which puts a personal interpretation of the word of YAH over what was actually said or written.

As an aside I had to sit with a grown man raised in the church to help him read a passage of scripture word by word like one would a child for him to see that a verse of scripture regarding divorce is gender specific, because he was reading the doctrine he had been taught into the text. Doing that simple thing brought him freedom from the bondage of false church doctrine that he could never marry again even though it was his wife who both committed adultery and divorced him.​

Referring to the passages you presented @Mark C from Deuteronomy 29:9 through 30 I thought about passages in the didascalia that states clearly that the law is not done away with and that Christian's are meant to keep everything up until the first tablets before they were broken (I'm paraphrasing)

"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you this day, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. — Deuteronomy 30:15-16 RSV

The commandments is mentioned in the didascalia, which includes the didaché which mentions "the preparation day", then the sabbath which is a clear commandment is then circumvented by "talmudianism", an explanation that links the text to a religious practice that is not supported by the text alone. Genesis 3 is the greatest example of this practice.

Jumping, we can then talk about being grafted in, as spoken by the apostle Paul to the roman ekklesia, and should ask the question, grafted into what ? If one is able to explain away simple obedience to the commandments and the following statement

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. — Romans 3:31 NASB95

Trying to raise and lead a biblical family without Torah is a free for all mess.
Trying to be a Patriarch without Torah is like using your own hand span to measure yourself as you grow.

I know this post is not as cogent as my usual contributions, I am just attempting not to step on admin toes, pussy footing around the crux of the issue which is just not me, so, I have to ask, if every mention of Torah/Law which includes the commandments is deleted from the gospels and letters what are we left with ?

How can we choose life by circumventing his commands ?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Everyone stop whining. You are more than welcome to make positive statements about why you keep Torah as long as they’re not aimed proselytizing others to keep Torah or implying that others should be keeping Torah.

It’s also would be a good idea to keep them in this section of the forum where a MODICUM more leeway might be afforded and at least tangentially related to the topic of Biblical marriage.

So far this thread hasn’t toed up to the line but if it looks like it’s turning in to a reconnaissance mission to see if the line can be moved, I assure you that it can not be. This is not a Torah ministry. This is a Torah welcoming ministry. It’s also a Baptist welcoming ministry, a Pentecostal welcoming ministry and God help us even a Methodist welcoming ministry. Hell, Calvinists might even be welcome here.

But we Torah types have to be welcoming back. These rules are not onerous and the goal they’re enacted to achieve is worth the forebearance.

 

[Keith Martin]

Everyone stop whining. You are more than welcome to make positive statements about why you keep Torah as long as they’re not aimed proselytizing others to keep Torah or implying that others should be keeping Torah.

It’s also would be a good idea to keep them in this section of the forum where a MODICUM more leeway might be afforded and at least tangentially related to the topic of Biblical marriage.

I know this post is not as cogent as my usual contributions, I am just attempting not to step on admin toes, pussy footing around the crux of the issue which is just not me, so, I have to ask, if every mention of Torah/Law which includes the commandments is deleted from the gospels and letters what are we left with ?

Full disclosure: I'm not a Hebrew Roots guy, so I consider myself a guest in this section of the forums and respect any limitations placed on me in that regard while I'm here.

But I'm asking the following for clarification purposes, @The Revolting Man and other moderators: outside of making plans to wage spiritual battle elsewhere on the forums, don't Hebrew Roots/Torah-Keeping folks have almost unlimited freedom to articulate their biblical perspectives here in the Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles section in support of insisting on full adherence to every rule in Torah?

So, if I'm correct about that, @JudahYAHites, I have trouble understanding why you would need to censor yourself here.

Asking with all respect for your POV.

 

[JudahYAHites]

So, if I'm correct about that, @JudahYAHites, I have trouble understanding why you would need to censor yourself here.

Asking with all respect for your POV.

Deeper discussion (theology and more) / Messianic Jews Hebrew Roots Gentiles is the section this thread is placed in, however I am still aware that there have been specific directives made on the platform regarding what will and will not be tolerated, so I am aware of that and respect the fact that I am on someone else's platform.

I am new here and am well aware that the TK, non TK issue existed way before I got here, but it seems as if I have been lumped in to a category as I stated.

I was never referred to as a torah keeper or a judaizer until coming on to this platform, and I have spoken with many believers before under the banner of "Come let us reason together..." to simply obey "Christ" and stop dancing round what is written.

I think that this comment by @The Revolting Man is evidence that I am correct in self censoring.

So far this thread hasn’t toed up to the line but if it looks like it’s turning in to a reconnaissance mission to see if the line can be moved, I assure you that it can not be

So even though this is the section titled Deeper discussion (theology and more) / Messianic Jews Hebrew Roots Gentiles there is obviously restrictions as to what can be said, which is cool with me, no complaints.

So didn't understand the comment

Everyone stop whining

But it is what it is, wasn't bothered enough to respond, it's not my house so it's not my rules.

But I do think my last two questions were relevant questions relating to the thread and the forum section we are in

if every mention of Torah/Law which includes the commandments is deleted from the gospels and letters what are we left with ?

How can we choose life by circumventing his commands ?

 

[Mark C]

Hmm. I put this midrash here, in what I referred to as a 'ghetto' for reasons that...well:

I have numerous comments, Mark.

• ...
• I don't agree that this is a ghetto. I've described it instead as the All-Torah-All-the-Time Playground, and if enough people in Biblical Families who believe as I do existed to warrant a Universal Reconciliation Playground, I would be honored to have that sandbox to work and play in. You and others who have this avenue to self-express in aren't being punished but instead being recognized for the strength of your zeal.

I contend that His Instruction, summarized in the two words, 'choose life!' is appropriate.

And I stand by everything else I said in the teaching, which is about parsha "Nitzavim," and primarily Deuteronomy chapter 30, and the fact that HE SAYS keeping His Instruction is "not too hard." Period.

Turns out it's related to marriage, why we have an economy that is collapsing worldwide, why little boys and girls are being 'groomed,' and have their genitalia mutilated, en route to sterilization and suicide, and why, in general, the Whore Church and other elements of paganism run amok have made a complete mess of things...

 

[Mark C]

Everyone stop whining. You are more than welcome to make positive statements about why you keep Torah as long as...

So far this thread hasn’t toed up to the line but if it looks like it’s turning in to a reconnaissance mission to see if the line can be moved...

Just curious, Zec.

Did you listen to the recording?

PS> I NEVER "proselytize about 'keeping Torah'."

 

[Keith Martin]

PS> I NEVER "proselytize about 'keeping Torah'."

 

[Keith Martin]

Deeper discussion (theology and more) / Messianic Jews Hebrew Roots Gentiles is the section this thread is placed in, however I am still aware that there have been specific directives made on the platform regarding what will and will not be tolerated, so I am aware of that and respect the fact that I am on someone else's platform.

It seems to me that, as I mentioned earlier, as long as you're not here planning to start a Hatfields-and-McCoys skirmish out in the main threads, and additionally as long as you're not escalating things here to the level of death threats, you should be just fine in this section articulating whatever your position is about the essential nature of adhering to any dictate of Scripture.

Hmm. I put this midrash here, in what I referred to as a 'ghetto' for reasons that...well:

I continue to maintain that this is not a ghetto but a privilege. No one else has a separate section where he is permitted to get hot-and-heavy about his idiosyncratic religious faith dogmas.

Nor does anyone stop any of us from starting our own websites dedicated to evangelizing our beliefs.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Full disclosure: I'm not a Hebrew Roots guy, so I consider myself a guest in this section of the forums and respect any limitations placed on me in that regard while I'm here.

But I'm asking the following for clarification purposes, @The Revolting Man and other moderators: outside of making plans to wage spiritual battle elsewhere on the forums, don't Hebrew Roots/Torah-Keeping folks have almost unlimited freedom to articulate their biblical perspectives here in the Messianic Jews / Hebrew Roots Gentiles section in support of insisting on full adherence to every rule in Torah?

So, if I'm correct about that, @JudahYAHites, I have trouble understanding why you would need to censor yourself here.

Asking with all respect for your POV.

No, there is not carte blanche even here. The Hebrew roots section can’t become a fortress from which to lob flaming bricks at the normies, as much as I love lobbing flaming bricks at the normies.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Deeper discussion (theology and more) / Messianic Jews Hebrew Roots Gentiles is the section this thread is placed in, however I am still aware that there have been specific directives made on the platform regarding what will and will not be tolerated, so I am aware of that and respect the fact that I am on someone else's platform.

I am new here and am well aware that the TK, non TK issue existed way before I got here, but it seems as if I have been lumped in to a category as I stated.




I think that this comment by @The Revolting Man is evidence that I am correct in self censoring.



So even though this is the section titled Deeper discussion (theology and more) / Messianic Jews Hebrew Roots Gentiles there is obviously restrictions as to what can be said, which is cool with me, no complaints.

So didn't understand the comment


But it is what it is, wasn't bothered enough to respond, it's not my house so it's not my rules.

But I do think my last two questions were relevant questions relating to the thread and the forum section we are in

There’s no need to self censor. If you need to be censored it will be done for you. Feel free to experiment with the left and right lateral limits. In your brief time here you have made valuable contributions and consistently excellent posts. You’ve earned some consideration.

The problem comes in when things start creeping, every little minor click to the left or right starts moving the point of impact substantively cumulatively. There has to be a hard line drawn and defended. One man’s toe over the line moves the line for the next man’s toe.

And some of y’all have nasty toes!

 

[Keith Martin]

No, there is not carte blanche even here. The Hebrew roots section can’t become a fortress from which to lob flaming bricks at the normies, as much as I love lobbing flaming bricks at the normies.

OK; I already mentioned that a couple times:

It seems to me that, as I mentioned earlier, as long as you're not here planning to start a Hatfields-and-McCoys skirmish out in the main threads, and additionally as long as you're not escalating things here to the level of death threats, you should be just fine in this section articulating whatever your position is about the essential nature of adhering to any dictate of Scripture.

So, no lobbing cluster bombs into realms outside the TK Playground, and no death threats within.

Isn't there free speech here for TKs beyond those two categories of transgressions?

 

[The Revolting Man]

But I do think my last two questions were relevant questions relating to the thread and the forum section we are in

Scripture quotes will never be deleted. It is always appropriate to apply all of the Bible to any question.

So the statement “The Torah tells us that x is a sin,” would be fine. But if that statement was followed by something like, “but y’all dumb asses can’t even worship on the right day so no one expects you to not do x” then that would be moderated. You are completely allowed to call someone a dumb ass. You are not allowed to call them a dumb ass for not keeping the Sabbath.

Some of this is as much art as science. A deep study of what the Torah says about sex and “marriage” would excellently received. A brief aside about why no one should eat pork would not.

The vast majority of men, and I’m fairly certain you fall into this category, l here know what the intention of the policy is. You can proudly wave your tzit tzits all over the place. Let your freak flag fly brother! You can not imply that anyone else should wear them.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So, no lobbing cluster bombs into realms outside the TK Playground, and no death threats within.

Isn't there free speech here for TKs beyond those two categories of transgressions?

The problem with answering this question would be one of definitions. As soon as a “yes” or “no” was registered the lawyers would go to work on the definitions and we have some excellent lawyers.

So the answer is, negligibly. Maybe, possibly, hopefully, let’s not find out.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Just curious, Zec.

Did you listen to the recording?

PS> I NEVER "proselytize about 'keeping Torah'."

I did not listen to the recording.