Holding all things in common

[PeteR]

Acts 2:46. It's in the passage @Cap is citing.

I really don't want a Torah debate...

The destruction of the Temple did not end Temple service, it merely suspended it. Ezekiel clearly promises that we will have a future offering of fat and blood. (Eze. 44:15) While those do not atone, they point to the atonement. And, the One who did the atoning will be overseeing the whole thing!

I'm out so this doesn't get derailed.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

@PeteR It appears you are correct that at the least there were some in Jerusalem who were still participating in animal sacrifices re: Acts 25 and it looks like someone(s) in leadership was party to it as well.

That being said, that whole process in that passage stinks to me of coercion and deceit on the part of the leadership who coerced Paul into pretending to be ending a temporary Nasir vow when there is no indication of any vow by Paul. Especially in light of Numbers 6. Who would pretend to have a Nazarite vow? Sounds like a deliberate setup to me.

He went thru all that just to get to address the church there at Jerusalem and we see how that turned out. I’ve actually heard of pastors requiring a particular style of haircut for an evangelist to be allowed to speak at a meeting the pastor had scheduled him there for. What a mess. And what hubris.

But your point is at least partially taken (at least by me). Some at least were still offering sacrifices at the temple in AD 55. The right or wrong of those actions is a different discussion and I do not believe that Paul would have voluntarily offered sacrifices in the Temple or elsewhere.

I have also found it interesting that the books written after this point are decidedly not conciliatory towards the Judaistic brethren. It makes me think that there was something that Paul was attempting to be diplomatic about but only to a certain point and no further.

I’ve also wondered why no one there in the Jerusalem church vouched for him at his hearings. Hmm.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Acts 2:46. It's in the passage @Cap is citing.

I really don't want a Torah debate...

The destruction of the Temple did not end Temple service, it merely suspended it. Ezekiel clearly promises that we will have a future offering of fat and blood. (Eze. 44:15) While those do not atone, they point to the atonement. And, the One who did the atoning will be overseeing the whole thing!

I'm out so this doesn't get derailed.

Just saw this. And I agree. I do think you’re right about the sacrifices. And now I’m out.

 

[Cap]

Acts 2, your reference passage occurred in 35-38 AD. Paul is sacrificing in Temple in 55 AD. Destruction was not until 70 AD.

Not poking your theology, just looking at sequence of events. History indicates Christian community didn't leave Jerusalem until right before destruction. Acts indicates they were involved in Temple life right up to their departure.

Re: my earlier statement that persecution forced many out of Jerusalem, see Acts 8:1-5.... the persecution was off and on because at time of Paul's arrest, we know at least 20,000 believers were in Jerusalem and keeping Torah including Temple service. Study exactly what James said and why in Acts 21:15-26 ff

No problem poking theology, but it seems your assumption is that they're community mentality before the temple destruction will come back. My assumption (and yes we are both assuming something we don't know yet for sure) is that what was taking place before, during and after the temple was destroyed was a transition to a new relationship with God. And how does that relate to us in reference to community? Is monogamy a correct community belief as a whole? Is worshipping a Torah belief correct belief for a community as a whole, or is there a yet a Truth of leaving community we haven't seen yet coming? Being dogmatic in these matters seems to cause more problems then solve, at least at this point.

 

[Cap]

I'm not wanting to get involved in the Torah debate either, however it is interesting that that whole thing will always create an uncommon unity until something is revealed that puts things in proper order.

It seems to me that community is very important to God, two people got killed not doing it right, so maybe trying to figure out how to do it better might be beneficial to us all.

 

[PeteR]

two people got killed not doing it right

?? Are you talking about Ananias and Saphira? [They were judged for lying to the Holy Spirit... had nothing to do with not doing community right.]

 

[Cap]

?? Are you talking about Ananias and Saphira? [They were judged for lying to the Holy Spirit... had nothing to do with not doing community right.]

They lied to the Holy Spirit about participating in a community like others were doing. The others were trusting God when it came to community living, they did not and they lied about it. God don't kill them because they lied, many people lied, but because of their lack of faith.

 

[rockfox]

Then the concept of holding all things in common is not about selling property and living in a communal type arrangement but more in line with the foundations of creating the assembly of believers in a more personal home based setting. Where before the idea was that worshipping in the temple was that old way and now, with the view of 'holding all things in common' is basically changing the view from temple worship to home church setting. Yes/no?

No it's not about a home church.

All the believers were together and had everything in common.

is followed by how they had all things in common...

45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

Think of it like a big family. They lived life together daily. They did not consider their possessions or property theirs but were simply stewards of it until someone else had a greater need of it.

And also, this was at a time when a lot of new believers were hanging around who had come from long distances for the Passover. They had nothing at all. They literally would have been living with other people and depending on them. So there was a greater than usual need.

But that doesn't change the fact that this is how believers ought to live life together and respond to needs.

God don't kill them because they lied, many people lied, but because of their lack of faith.

No it was about the lie... "You have not lied to men but to God." and "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord"

 

[PeteR]

"How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord"

Not just lied, but conspired to lie. Premeditated.

As a side note, this passage is one of those great passages proving the God of the OT was a God of judgement, but He changed to a God of grace in the NT....

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

As a side note, this passage is one of those great passages proving the God of the OT was a God of judgement, but He changed to a God of grace in the NT....

Hebrews 2:1-4 KJV
“[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

[2] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

[3] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him ;

[4] God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”



He is a God of both wrath and mercy. He is unchanging.

 

[PeteR]

He is a God of both wrath and mercy. He is unchanging.

Exactly!....

 

[Cap]

As a side note, this passage is one of those great passages proving the God of the OT was a God of judgement, but He changed to a God of grace in the NT....

I don't understand this. Two people were killed in the NT f0r, as you say, lieing. How is that Grace?

BY the same reasoning, Moses was not allowed into the Promised Land because he just hit a rock more than once. I don't buy it, I think there is more going on here and I believe the real lesson is faith.

In this light, Christians need to be very careful when making New Years resolutions, or praying for something when things are drastic and promise God that they will change, and when it passes the don't do what they promised. God can get really pissed off for minor details if that is the case. But, if these things take place because of a higher purpose then I can see that, and see that the goal is to find that higher purpose.

 

[Cap]

No it was about the lie... "You have not lied to men but to God." and "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord"

Of course they lied, but why? It's something in their heart that caused the response.

In II Kings 8, Hazael is instructed by Elisha to lie to Ben-Hada about a prophecy regarding his health. Hazael might be the liar but it is Elisha that orders it:

Hazael went to meet Elisha… He went in and stood before him, and said, ‘Your son Ben-Hadad king of Aram has sent me to ask, ‘Will I recover from this illness?’ Elisha answered, ‘Go and say to him, ‘You will certainly recover.’ Nevertheless, the Lord has revealed to me that he will in fact die.’

Did Jesus lie about going to the festival or did he simply change his mind? The translations differ, with some including and others omitting the word ‘yet’, others imply that he changed his mind.

You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.’ After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.

Sarah lied to God about whether or not she laughed because she was afraid of what He might do to her for disbelieving the prophecy that she will give birth:

Then the Lord said to Abraham, ‘Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh.’

There's more. Why would God kill these two but not the others?

 

[rockfox]

I don't understand this. Two people were killed in the NT f0r, as you say, lieing. How is that Grace?

You don't appear to appreciate how much God hates liars...

But the cowardly, [a]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Of course they lied, but why? It's something in their heart that caused the response.

Peter also wondered why. But it was the action that mattered. We've been given no reason to think otherwise. And it wasn't a 'response', it was premeditated action.

Did Jesus lie about going to the festival or did he simply change his mind? The translations differ, with some including and others omitting the word ‘yet’, others imply that he changed his mind.

No...

“Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”

Did Jesus lie about going to the festival or did he simply change his mind?

http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=3781

Then the Lord said to Abraham, ‘Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh.’

There's more. Why would God kill these two but not the others?

It would seem God judges a gut reaction from fear differently from conspiracy to deceive God. Shocker! /s

Why are you reaching so hard for moral equivalency? Deceiving God is hardly on the same plain as saying you're not going somewhere yet.

Face it. God hates liars. Sometimes enough to strike them dead on the spot.

 

[Cap]

Face it. God hates liars. Sometimes enough to strike them dead on the spot.

You don't appear to appreciate how much God hates liars...

Face it. God hates liars. Sometimes enough to strike them dead on the spot.

God does not hate liars. If He 'hates' it is the sin that we do that keeps us from Him. And that is the reason for His Son, to take away our sin so that we can have a relationship with Him.

It would seem God judges a gut reaction from fear differently from conspiracy to deceive God. Shocker!

Romans 6:23 doesn't qualify big sins to little sins.

Why are you reaching so hard for moral equivalency? Deceiving God is hardly on the same plain as saying you're not going somewhere yet..

Not trying to reach moral equivalency, but why are you trying to make God into a taskmaster. God did not kill them because of a 'lie' but because of the hypocrisy they were bring to the church. He doesn't kill people because they lie, but because of what the lie does to the body of Christ and therefore it's better to look at the reason why instead of just accepting something on a base fact.

Oh, and God does not hate people, even if they lie.

 

[rockfox]

He doesn't kill people because they lie

Yes He does...

But the cowardly, [a]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

God does not hate people, even if they lie.

Yes He does...

These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

and

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;

You hate all who do iniquity.

and

The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,

And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

amoung others.

Sorry, but the scriptures do not accord with the mamby pampy Gospel of Niceness.

 

[Cap]

Sorry, but the scriptures do not accord with the mamby pampy Gospel of Niceness.

I think you are confusing the word hate used in the bible for the emotion.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I think you are confusing the word hate used in the bible for the emotion.

Could you run that by one more time?

 

[Cap]

I can if you can explain these to me in their context.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

God's hate is not what we think it is.

 

[rockfox]

God's hate is not what we think it is.

So which is it? Does He hate or does He not hate?