I’m not debating
just answering a question. Seems like an important thing to iron out.
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How do those on here define "being a Christian" ?
- Thread starter JudahYAHites
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just answering a question. Seems like an important thing to iron out.
I’m watching this one closely. I’ve almost pulled the trigger a couple of times but it’s stayed just up against the line. But I agree, it’s neither interesting or illuminative.
Just cause you were puking doesn’t mean it wasn’t interesting
It's the topic we're disallowing, but it's civil. Also watching it closely, but possibly too closely as I've got myself caught up in it. 
So I'll likely leave it to @The Revolting Man to pull the trigger if needed to avoid looking like I'm using moderation privileges to win an argument.
So I'll likely leave it to @The Revolting Man to pull the trigger if needed to avoid looking like I'm using moderation privileges to win an argument.
Very interesting answers, especially the ones who are able to peer into the depths of my heart and mind, (very amusing to read) foolishly assuming they know my intention, when they have completely ignored the fact that I already explained it on here.
@Bartato is the only one I can see who has directly read and answered the full question
Thank you @Bartato I may not agree with your standpoint but kudos to you for not twisting the question into something it was not and exercising a seemingly ever decreasing skill of answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I don't know the origin of this doctrine, maybe you could enlighten me, I first heard it from a Roman catholic priest.
Contrary to the false accusers I did not mention or allude to Torah in anyway I clearly stated, the gospels.
Amongst some saccharine saturated platitudes alluding to an amorphous standard of what it is to be identified as a disciple or Christian, there was some honey.
@Mark C stated
I will focus on the ".......work out....." because contrary to popular opinion (with regards to how I have heard it taught preached and used) it doesn't actually mean, work out to figure out, it should more actually be translated work to completion or work to finish based on what the believers had been taught
In context...
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (to completion) your own salvation with fear and trembling. — Philippians 2:12 KJV
Which points to the fact of listen attentively; to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.
There is quite obviously a standard of living that Paul and the other apostles were teaching that caused division, that was exclusive and exclusionary, that caused those who heard to state emphatically that THEY (the apostles) TEACH CUSTOMS that they being Roman's could not keep.
(Very apropos in this day and age considering the current systems we all live under, especially regarding biblical marriage)
Now, that was divisive and apparently, by most standards nowadays not very "christ like"
Consequently we receive warnings like these AFTER he arose from the dead that were recorded for our benefit
He that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity
Also....
Follow peace with all and holiness without which no man will see the Lord
What about...
Examine yourselves, whether you be IN THE FAITH; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobate/rejected?
These are quite divisive exclusive statements and instructions....
Oooohhh and this quite clear exhortation...
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I was compelled to write to you [urgently] appealing that you fight strenuously for [the defense of] the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints [the faith that is the sum of Christian belief that was given verbally to believers]. — Jude 1:3 AMP
I could go on to list out the times that the apostles, the writers of what we call the new testament, quoted or referred to the words of Christ BEFORE he resurrected and ascended, instead I will go to his own words, to the very apostles his disciples through whose words we all come to faith through.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. — Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
Take note "....I have commanded...." is NOT in future tense here
This statement this command is compounded by the very words of YAHushuWaH/Jesus BEFORE his death burial and resurrection
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. — John 17:6-8 KJV
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. — John 17:14-21 KJV
Make of his words what you will, but as for me and my house...........
(And look at that not one Torah quote used lol)
PS.
To the admins...
reiterating once again that according to my original question and post this was actually based on the gospels and the teachings within the new testament. Taking into account that I am relatively new on here compared to the majority actively conversing across the platform, I do find it odd that there is such a push restricting Torah based doctrinal understanding which does not seem to be present on the other side of the fence which seems tolerant of just about any form of doctrine as long as it is NOT Torah based in any way. Is there a reason why this (to me) seemingly unbalanced directive is not made just as restrictive on the non Torah side?
@Bartato is the only one I can see who has directly read and answered the full question
Thank you @Bartato I may not agree with your standpoint but kudos to you for not twisting the question into something it was not and exercising a seemingly ever decreasing skill of answering a straight question with a straight answer.
I don't know the origin of this doctrine, maybe you could enlighten me, I first heard it from a Roman catholic priest.
Contrary to the false accusers I did not mention or allude to Torah in anyway I clearly stated, the gospels.
Amongst some saccharine saturated platitudes alluding to an amorphous standard of what it is to be identified as a disciple or Christian, there was some honey.
@Mark C stated
I will focus on the ".......work out....." because contrary to popular opinion (with regards to how I have heard it taught preached and used) it doesn't actually mean, work out to figure out, it should more actually be translated work to completion or work to finish based on what the believers had been taught
In context...
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (to completion) your own salvation with fear and trembling. — Philippians 2:12 KJV
Which points to the fact of listen attentively; to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.
There is quite obviously a standard of living that Paul and the other apostles were teaching that caused division, that was exclusive and exclusionary, that caused those who heard to state emphatically that THEY (the apostles) TEACH CUSTOMS that they being Roman's could not keep.
(Very apropos in this day and age considering the current systems we all live under, especially regarding biblical marriage)
Now, that was divisive and apparently, by most standards nowadays not very "christ like"
Consequently we receive warnings like these AFTER he arose from the dead that were recorded for our benefit
He that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity
Also....
Follow peace with all and holiness without which no man will see the Lord
What about...
Examine yourselves, whether you be IN THE FAITH; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobate/rejected?
These are quite divisive exclusive statements and instructions....
Oooohhh and this quite clear exhortation...
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I was compelled to write to you [urgently] appealing that you fight strenuously for [the defense of] the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints [the faith that is the sum of Christian belief that was given verbally to believers]. — Jude 1:3 AMP
I could go on to list out the times that the apostles, the writers of what we call the new testament, quoted or referred to the words of Christ BEFORE he resurrected and ascended, instead I will go to his own words, to the very apostles his disciples through whose words we all come to faith through.
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. — Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
Take note "....I have commanded...." is NOT in future tense here
This statement this command is compounded by the very words of YAHushuWaH/Jesus BEFORE his death burial and resurrection
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. — John 17:6-8 KJV
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. — John 17:14-21 KJV
Make of his words what you will, but as for me and my house...........
(And look at that not one Torah quote used lol)
PS.
To the admins...
reiterating once again that according to my original question and post this was actually based on the gospels and the teachings within the new testament. Taking into account that I am relatively new on here compared to the majority actively conversing across the platform, I do find it odd that there is such a push restricting Torah based doctrinal understanding which does not seem to be present on the other side of the fence which seems tolerant of just about any form of doctrine as long as it is NOT Torah based in any way. Is there a reason why this (to me) seemingly unbalanced directive is not made just as restrictive on the non Torah side?
And perfect practice makes perfect.Going back to this original question I'll add that I consider myself a practicing Christian.
And one of these days with a lot more practice I just might get it right.
So basically, I think your reasoning goes something like this.
1. After the resurrection, Jesus told the disciples to teach the nations to do everything He had taught them (Matt.28).
2. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus said that "...not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished" (Matt 5:18 NASB)
The next step is a big one and is where I think we disagree.
3. Therefore every instruction given in Scripture now also applies to us, and in basically the same way it did to the original audience.
I don't think that is always an accurate way to read the text. For example, at the last supper, Christ washed His disciples feet and instructed them to do the same for each other in the days to come.
This teaching of Christ certainly also applies to us today, but probably in a slightly different way.
Foot washing was something commonly practiced in that time and cultural context. It isn't something normally done today.
I believe Christ's main point there was that His followers should humble themselves and lovingly serve their brothers and sisters in Christ, even when the tasks are menial and lack glory.
Following the humble, gentle, loving, and lowly attitude of our Master is more important than the mechanics of cleaning a particular bodily appendage.
Maybe I am reading you wrong. Maybe you are mainly protesting the fact that many Christians simply don't obey and follow Jesus (or God's instructions in general) in their lives. That is a huge problem. We must follow and obey Him. He is our Lord. The whole Bible is His, and that includes the Torah.
It is simply infuriating to me that with overwhelming, incontrovertible scripture telling us exactly what we can REQUIRE of each other theologically (spoiler alert, it’s very little) that we go around and around in barely contained outrage that someone might possibly think they’re more right.
That’s what this boils down to; people are incensed that someone else might think they’re doing it wrong. It’s just pride; stupid pride too because WE’RE ALL DOING IT WRONG. The admission that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God is one of the very few things we can require of each other.
You’re all wrong. You’re all deluded. You’re all blinded by pride and biases and incomplete knowledge and poor scholarship and shoddy reading and undisciplined study and even plain old stubbornness.
Get over yourselves. You’re boring. And the fact that you’re so insulted by your brother’s supposed errors is proof positive that you have far more pressing things to worry about. Are you an Inquisitor? Are you going to torture the other side into submission? You’re torturing the rest of us with this pointless, repetitive dripping from your pie holes. Can you somehow walk your brother’s faith for him? Or somehow drive him before you?
Has anyone changed one person’s mind on any of this ever? The answer to all of these questions and more is no. So mind your own damn business. Stop with the histrionic emoting and the busybody disapproval. You’re all wrong.
Torah types are nuts, we can’t require Torah keeping. There will be many, many uncircumcised people ahead of us in Glory.
Gentile believers are ridiculous. They have dietary laws they have to conform to that are clearly laid out for them in the New Testament and how in the hell do you excoriate a way of life that was adhered to by Christ and all of the apostles? You sound like morons.
That is all. Return to your regularly scheduled insanity.
That’s what this boils down to; people are incensed that someone else might think they’re doing it wrong. It’s just pride; stupid pride too because WE’RE ALL DOING IT WRONG. The admission that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God is one of the very few things we can require of each other.
You’re all wrong. You’re all deluded. You’re all blinded by pride and biases and incomplete knowledge and poor scholarship and shoddy reading and undisciplined study and even plain old stubbornness.
Get over yourselves. You’re boring. And the fact that you’re so insulted by your brother’s supposed errors is proof positive that you have far more pressing things to worry about. Are you an Inquisitor? Are you going to torture the other side into submission? You’re torturing the rest of us with this pointless, repetitive dripping from your pie holes. Can you somehow walk your brother’s faith for him? Or somehow drive him before you?
Has anyone changed one person’s mind on any of this ever? The answer to all of these questions and more is no. So mind your own damn business. Stop with the histrionic emoting and the busybody disapproval. You’re all wrong.
Torah types are nuts, we can’t require Torah keeping. There will be many, many uncircumcised people ahead of us in Glory.
Gentile believers are ridiculous. They have dietary laws they have to conform to that are clearly laid out for them in the New Testament and how in the hell do you excoriate a way of life that was adhered to by Christ and all of the apostles? You sound like morons.
That is all. Return to your regularly scheduled insanity.
Speaking for myself, and my own witness -- the answer is YES - MINE!!! And even others you obviously don't know about.
There was a time when I didn't believe any of Scripture. And I was wrong. Thankfully.
But it only became clear to me, personally, when I saw the complete, utter, CONSISTENCY of His Word, as Written, from "Genesis to maps."
So -
Just maybe, ponder the implications, there is some value in "iron sharpens iron."
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PS> I've honestly probably had more success in convincing more people about the paganism of Easter, or the health benefits of not eating pork or shellfish, than I have when it comes to His Written Truth about 'marriage,' and that a man may have more than one.
Doesn't stop me from suggesting people read what He Wrote.
I can't MAKE 'em do any of it, and don't try. But My Savior says to "blow the shofar."
Doesn't stop me from suggesting people read what He Wrote.
I can't MAKE 'em do any of it, and don't try. But My Savior says to "blow the shofar."
I agree! We are all quite wrong in many things. But there are some things that we can gain wisdom and insight into.
Proverbs 13:20 He who walks with wise men will be wise, But the companion of fools will suffer harm.
Proverbs 16:16 How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.
Ephesians 1:17-19 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.
This portion of Galatians is why I keep asking for answers. I don't know it all, I don't have all the answers. There are some here who say they know. So I ask for instruction and an explanation for how these things might be. When I see contradictions I ask for answers because I want to know how I am to obey and what I am to obey.
Brothers and sisters, even if a person is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you are not tempted as well. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks that he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting, but to himself alone, and not to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load. 6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 Let’s not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Proverbs 13:20 He who walks with wise men will be wise, But the companion of fools will suffer harm.
Proverbs 16:16 How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver.
Ephesians 1:17-19 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.
This portion of Galatians is why I keep asking for answers. I don't know it all, I don't have all the answers. There are some here who say they know. So I ask for instruction and an explanation for how these things might be. When I see contradictions I ask for answers because I want to know how I am to obey and what I am to obey.
Brothers and sisters, even if a person is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you are not tempted as well. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks that he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting, but to himself alone, and not to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load. 6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 Let’s not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Thus, because @Bartato is sincere, and phrased the distinction well, here goes a bit o' that.
Only if you choose to be 'grafted in'. You don't have to.
So, no, not at all necessarily 'the same way.' But His promises are trustworthy.
Oh, yeah, and there's that "If you love Me, keep My commandments," thing. You decide what that means, and which version of Him that means. Perhaps that's where the real disagreement lies.
"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5
Only if you want the blessings promised for obedience (Deuteronomy 28). You don't have to.
Only if you choose to be 'grafted in'. You don't have to.
So, no, not at all necessarily 'the same way.' But His promises are trustworthy.
Oh, yeah, and there's that "If you love Me, keep My commandments," thing. You decide what that means, and which version of Him that means. Perhaps that's where the real disagreement lies.
"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5
This thread and many others have shown two things to me
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. — 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 KJV
It is a very well known fact that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it in but will be accounted workers of iniquity. The aim of questions is to get answers, the aim of reasoning together is for the sake of righteousness. (at least for me anyway)
We must understand that being righteous is far more important than being right.
It would behoove us all to NOT approach or engage in these conversations from a them vs us perspective, for the sake of our eternal salvation, so that, when we do examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith that was once preached by the apostles, we do not find ourselves wanting. Instead we can look forward to being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, and when we eventually meet him and we meet one another, maybe for the first time, we can at least say to one another, "thanks for that post, that question, that answer, it helped me, it made me think".
Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH our soon coming King
- the accuracy of apostle Paul's prophetic warning; For I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL the COUNSEL of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away DISCIPLES after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. — Acts 20:27-31 KJV
- The disunity in the faith will come to an end; And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the UNITY OF THE FAITH, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: — Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. — 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 KJV
It is a very well known fact that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it in but will be accounted workers of iniquity. The aim of questions is to get answers, the aim of reasoning together is for the sake of righteousness. (at least for me anyway)
We must understand that being righteous is far more important than being right.
It would behoove us all to NOT approach or engage in these conversations from a them vs us perspective, for the sake of our eternal salvation, so that, when we do examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith that was once preached by the apostles, we do not find ourselves wanting. Instead we can look forward to being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, and when we eventually meet him and we meet one another, maybe for the first time, we can at least say to one another, "thanks for that post, that question, that answer, it helped me, it made me think".
Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH our soon coming King
The fundamental error of every cult, be that the tiniest splinter group or the Catholic Church itself (which is a cult, charismatic leader and all), is to believe that the "unity of the faith" means that everyone must think the same thing - and this group knows the truth and everyone else must accept it to be in unity. The Catholic church is the true body of Christ and you have to be in unity it to be saved - that sort of thing. We must have "unity of the FAITH" - the focus being on finding the right thing to believe and then all believing the same.
But maybe the "unity of the faith" is NOT that we all come to believe and act the same.
Maybe it is that we all accept each other as brothers despite our differences. In other words, we all come in the "UNITY of the faith" - the focus being on unity itself.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35