• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

How do you know you belong in the 10 Percent?

steve

steve

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Percentages, bershmentages ;)

Not even 99% of so-called Christianity accepts poly, so they cannot be included in any of the numbers.
Let's dial it back to the idea of between 5 and 15 % of poly believers being in the lifestyle and we are probably a little poly-heavy.

The community of Yeshua's believers will need to embrace this belief at a greater rate in order to reduce the ostracism experienced by single women who would embrace this issue and become available. Women who contemplate this possibility are virtually attacked by their friends.
It is a different thing for men to embrace patriarchy and stand against the tide. I believe that true men are more "wired" to accept the rejection of the herd than are women.


Unlike pretty much any other teaching that we discover in scripture, poly is not a belief that one is called to practice just because one believes in it.
 
cwcsmc said:
How do you know which one you are?
Click to expand...
In hindsight. ;)

Seriously, I don't think you can figure out whether you are in the 10% (or whatever - I agree with steve that that number needs to be understood for what it is) and then make something happen. Either something happens or it doesn't, and then you know.

I think you're spot on that the real issue is not the number of wives, it's the structure or guiding principles of the family. In that sense I find the name "Biblical Families" to be a bull's eye for summarizing what this group is about, or at least what it should be about. There's a way of "doing family" that is biblical, and it doesn't preclude polygamy. To the extent that an individual has a problem with polygamy, that person has a problem with biblical (as opposed to Western, or Roman, or Victorian, or Anglo, or whatever) marriage and family, whether that person realizes it or not. Even if that person in the bottom of their culturally-conditioned heart thinks they are defending Christian marriage when they denounce polygamy.

Where it gets confusing is the way all of us that were raised in this culture struggle to get our minds around polygamy. Thoughts like "if this is true, then that must also be true", or "if they were wrong about that, what else were they wrong about?". Figuring out why polygamy has been suppressed in European culture and dealing with the parts of us that react against an acceptance of clear bible teaching (once we see it for what it is) becomes a laboratory exercise where we apply the principles of biblical family. So there's a little confusion sometimes as we slide back and forth between considering polygamy as a lifestyle and considering the overall principles taught in the bible regarding the relationships between husbands and wives and between parents and children. But the issue is always the general principles; the practical application is just the spotlight that highlights the principles being considered.

(edited once to correct a typo)
 
Yes and no. This isn't something you want to try to 'make happen', or putting it another way, "unless the Lord build the house...". OTOH, no harm in looking, and you could say the same things about looking for a first wife (letting the Lord build the house, etc.).

The difference is that if you're looking for a first wife, you have cultural expectations on your side and you have a reasonably large population of suitable potential spouses that are also looking around (and might be looking for you!). If you're looking for a second wife (and you're not living in a closed fundamentalist Mormon community), you're fighting a hostile culture and looking for a needle in a haystack.

So again, no harm in looking, but be prepared to look long and hard and have your patience tested, and don't let your happiness depend on how quickly you find what you're looking for. ¡Vaya con Dios!
 
I'll not subscribe to any % propaganda.

We were very cautious when we first sought a community of support regarding Biblical Polygyny. News channels ranted against polygyny, articles could be found en masse against it, forums contained massively more stories of heartbreak, failures, and persecution than joyful results.

Having considered the above, I spoke with family and friends anyway. Bracing for the worst, I was thankful to receive nothing but support. I posit that some of the acceptance and community issues are preconceived, and sometimes self generated/manifested. Sure, there will be those that take issue. But is it really so bad? I've seen people take more flack for wearing glasses, having a tattoo, or the type of vehicle they drive than I've received from our immediate community.

In consideration of the way in which I've heard many relationships have developed, I'm not surprised by some of the tensions. Polygyny aside, most families SHOULD be concerned when a lady announces that she is already or just about to be married to someone her family and friends haven't even met. Or would any of you say "That's nice dear, I'm sure it's the best thing for you" were your daughter to make such an announcement? Civilization in general would do well regarding relationships to slow down and maintain transparency.
 
Speaking as a monogamist so far... I agree with others that it isn't something to really strive for, so it doesn't really matter where you'll end up, God will provide. However that's obviously easier said than followed with complete patient faith! There's a balance point where you've got your eyes open wide enough to see when God prompts you, but not so wide that you go off down your own tangents and get yourself in trouble. I pray I've found the right point!

Courting4Life, I suspect the attitude of friends and family may differ depending on whether you actually practice it. I know there are people who know my views but put up with them because I've got only one wife. Were I to take a second I know that would cause all sorts of further ructions. There's a big difference between a hypothetical idea and a second woman hanging on your arm. So there are two points of potential opposition - the beliefs, and the actions. I'm doing my best to get people used to the beliefs just in case God has the actions in store for me also, so I won't have to deal with both at once. Which may temper things a bit, but is unlikely to remove all trouble.
 
CWCSMC,

Taking the info from this site alone would be akin to determining the average persons interest regarding baseball by polling those at a baseball game.

Our communities differ so radically that even if there was an EASY button that produced the average opinion of the world or country population there may be little relevancy.

Followinghim,

Friends and family have already had the opportunity to do a 180, and haven't. I simply told them when we had a courtship relationship. I've not presented PM as a hypothetical or attempted to teach them my understanding. Perhaps its a combination of our local culture, my family and our personalities, the people I befriend... definitely a lot of grace from above... but there's only support, encouragement, and loving advice from our side. Wouldn't it be a blessing to have the same from friends and family of a fiancee!
 
FollowingHim said:
Courting4Life, I suspect the attitude of friends and family may differ depending on whether you actually practice it. I know there are people who know my views but put up with them because I've got only one wife. Were I to take a second I know that would cause all sorts of further ructions. There's a big difference between a hypothetical idea and a second woman hanging on your arm. So there are two points of potential opposition - the beliefs, and the actions. I'm doing my best to get people used to the beliefs just in case God has the actions in store for me also, so I won't have to deal with both at once. Which may temper things a bit, but is unlikely to remove all trouble.
Click to expand...
I'll see you and raise you one. Another level of friction is when she gets pregnant. Maybe not for everyone, but be advised that having children together adds a whole new level of real.
 
C4L: I didn't think the issue was "interest in"; I thought the issue was "doing it". So the baseball analogy would be more properly expressed as "how many of the spectators at a game are or have been baseball players (pro, minors, city league, whatever) and how many are simply enthusiasts?".

That said, I don't think the exact percentage really matters. I thought it was self-evident that not all families in polygamous cultures are polygamous, and in fact are a minority of the overall culture. (NB - Unless you're talking about FLDS communities that are a skewed, self-selecting sample set.) If we need to stop and settle that then we can go find some references, but I don't think that's really the issue here.

I thought cwcsmc had a legit and important question in the opening post re "at what point in the evolution of your understanding of God's principles of marriage and family do you figure out whether God is calling you personally to be that guy?". I have two things I'd like to add to that issue, one specifically Christian, one not.

C4L's positive experiences to the contrary notwithstanding (C4L, I am genuinely happy that things have gone so well for you), I think most folks' experience (certainly most of the experiences I'm personally familiar with) includes facing a certain amount of opposition and rejection, both from people close to you who should know better and care more, and from people who don't know you well enough to justify having an opinion, let alone a judgment, about how you live your life. That being the case, in most cases you'll be exposing yourself and people you care about to a certain amount of criticism and judgment and hostility, so it'd be nice if you had a good reason to do that.

In that context, I'd say that you know this lifestyle is for you the same way you know whether you're following God in any other important decision you would make. (a) Are you obeying his revealed will for your life? Has God communicated to you personally in ways that you understand that this is something he wants for you? (b) Are you violating any of his proscriptions? (c) Are you operating in the zone of freedom where you aren't breaking any of God's laws but you aren't following specific guidance either?

A lot of the commotion around biblical polygamy is directed at (b), which is actually the easy part. The harder part is either (a), for some people, and if that's your case then you stop and address that, or (c), just making a typical cost/benefit decision, like whether to take a new job with more money and more time commitments, or move to a different city, or different country and culture. (Note: "Moving to a different country and culture" is a pretty good metaphor for this.)

The (a) part is the specifically Christian part. If you've made it this far with BF then you've more or less got the (b) part, so figuring out (a) becomes the issue, and your suggestion that we should all be praying for each other as a community is spot on. Beyond that it's between you and God.

As for (c), the not specifically Christian part, I'd like to contribute a piece of wisdom that I stole from Derek Sivers, founder of CD Baby: "If it's not hell yeah, it's a no." (I'm not saying it's original with DS, I'm just telling where I got it from.) If you have to ask whether you should be adding a particular woman to your family, then you aren't there yet. Whether it's because you want to know that you are moving in obedience to God's direction, or because you are trying to bring the cost/benefit approach to an unambiguous conclusion, if you're having to wonder whether you're doing the right thing, then you're not.

My two cents, as always....

(edited once to correct a typo and to recast a sentence to make more sense)
 
cwcsmc said:
It appears even when someone gets a direct revelation about a subject from God that there still involves faith. Unlike getting a revelation about a new job or moving, adding a new wife is completely unattainable without God's provisioning. When all things are said and done, for a Christian, there is not much else one can do but wait.
Click to expand...
Let's play with that a little bit....

If your company wants you to take a new position in a different city (job + move!), you evaluate that offer, pray through your decision, and respond. You may not be looking at a specific offer, however. You may just have some reason to want to explore other job opportunities, or life in a different city or climate or culture. Then you have to do a certain amount of homework to create your own circumstances, because no one is handing you something to evaluate.

Sometimes those thoughts are driven by dissatisfaction, or 'grass is greener' thinking. Sometimes, though, it's just 'possibility thinking', or a desire for adventure, or a personal development issue. You're the only one who knows that or can figure it out together with other people that know you well. The question becomes: How much effort are you going to put into trying to make something happen, absent some particular offer that's on the table.

That's too ordinary, though. Coming into an understanding that the bible does NOT prohibit plural marriage is a little more mind-expanding than a new job, so it presents a different kind of decision. Try this:

Remember "Good Will Hunting"? Young man from working class culture is intellectually gifted and has to decide whether to stay put or step up to professional culture? (More going on than that, but that's the angle I'm interested in here.) Some of us have parents and grandparents that went to college, and not going to college was never really on the menu. Some of us were the first people in our family to go to college, and something had to open our eyes to the possibility that it was something that would be right for us. Then once you have the understanding that it's a possibility, you have to decide if you want to do the work, knowing that there will be benefits, but knowing also that it will separate you from your native culture.

Now let's roll the clock back, because that's still not extreme enough. Say the first 100 years after the inventing of the printing press, and you're the first person in your family that has learned to read, and now wants to move to the city to go to a university and study, leaving behind everything and everyone you know. Is God calling you to do that? Is it just something you want to experience for yourself? Is God telling you NOT to do it? Only you can answer those questions, but the bottom line is that nobody can fault you for deciding to step up and step out and see if that's something that works for you, and nobody can fault you for deciding that unless and until God gives you a specific call coupled with a specific opportunity, you're going to relax and not try to make something happen.

More to say but not enough time to say it in. More later....
 
cwcsmc said:
[A}dding a new wife is completely unattainable without God's provisioning. When all things are said and done, for a Christian, there is not much else one can do but wait.
Click to expand...
Okay, I think I figured this out. The thing that triggered my earlier response was that I disagree with the quote above.

Specifically, I would have been fine if you had said that this is the position you have come to for yourself and your family. The rub was the assertion that for any Christian the proper posture is to accept the impossibility of doing this for yourself and to wait for God to do it for you.

[Note – That may not be what you meant, but I don't think it's an unreasonable description of what you said. If you meant something different you can clarify that and probably just skip the rest of this.]

Back to your original question, “how do you know?” And your musings around that: “(a) you leave it up to God and let him provide, and (b) you realize it wasn't about how many wives you have, it's about whether you understand God's design for marriage”.

As I said above, I whole-heartedly agree with your second conclusion. And while I have no idea whether the 10% figure is accurate, I accept as self-evident your premise that even in a poly-positive culture, actual poly families are going to be a minority subset of that culture.

So how do you know if you're a 10-percenter? “Seek ye first the kingdom of God...”

That's not supposed to be one of those not-very-helpful Sunday School platitudes. That's specifically based on my understanding of the dynamics of male/female relationships.

To illustrate the point, God created Adam, then put him in a garden and gave him work to do, then observed that he needed a helper, then created woman to be a suitable helper, then presented her to Adam. How many women should be a part of your family and who those women should be is best determined as a function of your purpose and mission in the kingdom of God.

To the extent you are confident of your purpose in Christ and striving to maximize your service to the kingdom, you can rest in the knowledge that God will provide all the help you need and can manage.

That may not sound very different from your formulation above, that there's not much we can do other than wait and let God provide the wife, knowing we can't make it happen ourselves. And if you were already assuming the things I said here then we may be very much on the same page after all. What I'm suggesting, though, is that there are things we can do besides simply wait, they're just not direct things like surf poly match-making sites or attend a retreat and hope some single women show up. Clarify your kingdom vision, renew your kingdom purpose, be the kind of man whose service to the Lord attracts others with shared vision, “...and these things shall be added unto you”.
 
I don't know if this is going to clarify or confuse the issue, but...

What kind of person are you? What kind would you like to be? Some people get drafted, some volunteer. Moses and Isaiah both had intense personal encounters with God. Isaiah volunteered to be God's man; Moses made excuses and tried to get out of it.

I'm a lawyer (shhhh!...), so I think in terms of presumptions and burdens of proof. Do you generally put the burden on God to light you up when he wants you to do something, or do you generally 'go for the gusto' and trust him to keep you out of trouble if you get over-zealous?

In your experience does God give you a lot of room to run or does he keep you on a pretty tight leash? Do you need a lot of structure and direction or do you need autonomy and room to create? Some musicians play the classical repertoire, some play jazz. Which are you?

I don't think you get a ruling on this one, and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. This is more a matter of personality, or you might even say style, than character. My opinion.

Maybe what I'm easing into is an admonition not to overthink it....

If you keep asking God to show you the way, he'll show you. And if you're hanging back he knows how to get your attention, and if you're getting ahead of him he knows how to hit the brakes. He didn't show you this (or let you find it) to create anxiety or confusion.

In my experience, my entree into the doctrinal study was strictly theoretical, almost a fluke, but it didn't take very long before God directed my attention to the two women that I already had working relationships/friendships with that in 20/20 hindsight became obvious as the reason we were working out the doctrinal issues. There's a lot more to that story, and probably more than I'll go into in the public forum, but I figured I'd throw out that much to get to this question: Is there anyone in your life now, that you wouldn't have to go looking for, but you already have a relationship with, that could be 'the reason you're working out the doctrinal issues'?
 
Just to be clear, as I read between the lines am I seeing a "no, there's not really anyone in my life right now that any of this would apply to"?
 
cwcsmc said:
God, you have revealed plural marriage, now reveal your purpose to those who you have opened their eyes to the truth so that they will know Your Will.
Click to expand...

Amen.
 
Okay, next question: ;)

What is your role in the kingdom of God? What 'member of the body' are you? What is your principal service to Christ?
 
andrew said:
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God...”
...
To illustrate the point, God created Adam, then put him in a garden and gave him work to do, then observed that he needed a helper, then created woman to be a suitable helper, then presented her to Adam. How many women should be a part of your family and who those women should be is best determined as a function of your purpose and mission in the kingdom of God.

To the extent you are confident of your purpose in Christ and striving to maximize your service to the kingdom, you can rest in the knowledge that God will provide all the help you need and can manage.
...
Clarify your kingdom vision, renew your kingdom purpose, be the kind of man whose service to the Lord attracts others with shared vision, “...and these things shall be added unto you”.
Click to expand...
Andrew, thankyou for this, it has been helpful to me as I ponder my direction in life. I fully agree with you that our primary purpose is to serve God's kingdom, and that should be our first focus always. But the more I get reminded the better, helps it to sink in so I actually figure it out and act on it!
 
cwsmc: Are you referring to the "husband of one wife" thing? As discussed elsewhere, "one" in this context is best translated "a" (ie "at least one") or "first" (ie "not divorced from the first"). So 1 Tim 3:12 doesn't prevent deacons etc from being polygamous.

Have a read of this page in our "Resources" section for a basic coverage of many such issues:
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/common_misconceptions

And NetWatchR's currently active thread regarding the word "one":
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4266
 
cmcsmc, I think you may be over-thinking this just a tad. Two things:

First, I don't think you should be bothering too much about whether you're "called to be polygamous". As an analogy: If you say someone was "called to be an apostle", that doesn't mean that God told them that he wanted them to be an apostle, then it was their job to figure out how to step up and be that. God sent them somewhere with a message, and the fact of their being given a message and sent is why we call them an apostle (which is just a fancy transliteration of the Greek word for messenger). You're a messenger when you are being sent out with messages.

If you think you're called to be polygamous and then go looking for a woman to plug into your family so you can be 'that guy', I don't think that's going to end well. Keep your eyes open for someone you love enough to bring into your family for the rest of your life so you can protect her and provide for her as she helps you fulfill your mission in Christ. Focus on who God wants you to love and serve, and the calling will manifest itself. All you've uncovered so far, and all you really need to uncover, is that should you find such a woman, the fact you are already married would not biblically prohibit her from joining your family in a lifelong covenant relationship. You'll face legal and cultural obstacles, but no biblical ones. Beyond that, though, there's really not much to do other than focus on your mission and keep your eyes open.

Re: "where is this church?", I think the answer is "where two or three are gathered". The word "church" is an abstraction, it points to a group of people called to a meeting. People are real. Find the people that are answering the same call you are, and you have found the church you're looking for.

The parallelism here is unintentional; I'm noticing it after the fact. Might have some stuff to say about that tomorrow; gotta get some rest.
 
andrew said:
Keep your eyes open for someone you love enough to bring into your family for the rest of your life so you can protect her and provide for her as she helps you fulfill your mission in Christ.

Re: "where is this church?", I think the answer is "where two or three are gathered". The word "church" is an abstraction, it points to a group of people called to a meeting. People are real. Find the people that are answering the same call you are, and you have found the church you're looking for.
Click to expand...

As I once heard from an international football (soccer) game... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLL!!!
 
cwcsmc said:
I have heard it say that in societies that accept polygamy as a way of life really only have about 10 percent of the population engage in the lifestyle. So, it would seem that the other 90 percent really are only accepting it as a reality but not practicing it. That means for those of us who have just been made aware of the option could fit into either category, the 10 percent or the 90 percent. How do you know which one you are?
Click to expand...

Currently among the 90% but ready to move into the 10% according to His will. We have already established that not everyone is cut for poly, there seems to even be a "scientific" basis for it... monogamy/polygamy gene... http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... 1xdH_mSwf0.

Even if I'm still in the 90%, that's important too 'cause it means I will be defending those who practice, rather than persecuting them. What's important is we understand God's word and obey it.

cwcsmc said:
As I looked through the bible I noticed that nobody in the old testament actually sought out having multiple wives, they just ended up with them.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's because poly was no big deal back then. Poly and mono were both fine. It should have stayed that way. Frankly, I'm not thrilled to have 2 wives just because the scriptures say poly is okay. Got to have some deeper motivation, like an intense desire to love, protect, and take care of them (sex is just a bonus).

cwcsmc said:
So, I am wondering, maybe the whole thing about plural marriage is just accepting the idea and it was not really meant to be pursued. And if maybe God provided someone, well you were ready, but in all likelihood the majority of us fall into the 90 percent.

The other thing I would say is that plural marriage is not really what this is all about anyway, it is about patriarchy.
Click to expand...

100% agree. My thinking too. The bigger issue is patriarchy. Not just within a family but between us (the church) and Jesus/Yeshua. Somebody recently asked me about marriage and I replied that our model for marriage should the one between Him and us. The virtues of a blemish-free wife (us, in total obedience to YHWH and His son) are extolled and we are commanded to submit ourselves to our Husband.

Right this moment, establishing headship with ONE wife is already an arduous task.

IMHO, we should not be too focused on poly, especially since BF is about families, in poly and mono form. We should instead put more weight on biblical patriarchy and marriage.

We should not consider ourselves a failure if we are not practising poly. YHWH has a role and purpose for each of us. Our time will come when He will call us to serve in a particular way. We simply need to be ready.

Thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top