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How should I go about this?

Isabella said:
Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the NT, are the Gospels written by Apostles? I have not read that, can you provide a source that I could understand?

B

Do you mean a source other than the NT itself and the early "church fathers" and or the NT itself and the early "church fathers?"

The best sources on the gospels in my opinion would be the gospels themselves and documents written close to the time of the gospels.


Isabella said:
Sorry, I am unfamiliar with the NT, are the Gospels written by Apostles? I have not read that, can you provide a source that I could understand?

B

The NT is 27 books/scrolls/letters (if I remember correctly.) The books had different authors some of them saw Jesus personally, others interviewed people that saw Jesus personally (and some might have done both.)

Some of the books might be written records of what people said to put in a letter (like ____'s secretary writing a letter for ____ but attributing authorship to _____), I am counting the one's written by secretary as by being written by the person who spoke to the secretary unless you have an objection to that. (Or possibly Paul has an additional name of Tertius)

Example

22 I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.
Romans 16:22 NIV 1984

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—
Romans 1:1 NIV 1984

It is very important to understand that the NT was not originally altogether in a single book this to put things simply adds credibility to the claims made by multiple books from an academic historical perspective.

I need to know what your definition of apostle is to answer that question as in one definition all the new testament books are written by apostles and in another definition they are not all written by apostles but only some of them are.

John, Paul and Peter were eyewitnesses of Jesus and they wrote some of the books of the new testament
 
DiscussingTheTopic said:
[

Do you mean a source other than the NT itself and the early "church fathers" and or the NT itself and the early "church fathers?"

Yes it all goes right over my head and I just don't understand them.

B
 
Isabella said:
DiscussingTheTopic said:
[

Do you mean a source other than the NT itself and the early "church fathers" and or the NT itself and the early "church fathers?"

Yes it all goes right over my head and I just don't understand them.

B

None of it would make any sense if you had not read enough of or possibly all of the new testament (or at least a translation) and possibly also some translations of the writings of the Church Fathers and or some other translations of early documents... unless you want me just to tell you conclusions about who wrote what I or other people came to and expect you to believe it.

Them = ?

Them = NT writers?
Them = Church Fathers?
 
I just want something like a resource????
 
Isabella said:
I just want something like a resource????

It might be better to email Dr. Keith Allen as I do not want to recommend a book I have not read but that limits the number of books I can recommend.

http://www.garyhabermas.com/

1. The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary Habermas

2. Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (with Mike Licona) by Mike Licona and Gary Habermas

1. This might answer some of your questions about the new testament (in the early chapters) but is much more difficult. It does not limit it's scope to the new testament but it might help answer some of your questions about the new testament in the early chapters. It responds to all sorts of zany theories like those in the "Jesus Seminar" in the early chapters and then later goes to discuss non-new testament historical sources of information from both Christian and Non-Christian sources as well as Gnostic sources, in addition to discussion on the new testament sources of information.

2. This one is much more fun and easier to understand and it comes with a CD game (which I suspect you can also view online.) It is much easier to understand because it uses a minimal facts approach mainly focusing on the interpretation of a "minimal number" of facts (that are often used to support the Resurrection claim) that "most" "qualified" scholars both Christian and Non-Christian agree on. The "minimal facts" approach makes it easier to understand in my opinion.

(I do not necessarily agree with 100% of everything in the books but they are a good starting point although reading the new testament itself might be a better starting point.)

http://www.garyhabermas.com/games/games.htm
 
Isabella,
The gospels of Matthew and John were written by Matthew and John who were among the original 12 apostles. The gospel of Luke was written by the physician of the same name that traveled with Paul. Luke also wrote the book, Acts of the Apostles. The gospel of Mark was written by Mark, Peter the Apostles nephew. The authors of most of the Epistles are self identified in them. The epistles of 1, 2, 3 John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ are all penned by the same John that wrote the gospel of John, one of the 12 apostles. This information is commonly accepted and not disputed by anyone except those on the extreme fringe of Biblical history, trying to take it a part. I am quite sure that a brief google search will reveal the same information. I hope this is helpful.
 
I DID a brief Google search and read Wikipedia, that's not what it says there about NT history, so if this is commonly accepted why doesn't it say so?

All I am asking is for an academic paper or article about the history of the NT. The link that DTT sent me was by a man who believes the Shroud of Turin is real....he has zero credibility as far as I am concerned. Besides that isn't really what I need.
If there isn't such a thing that is fine.

B




John Whitten said:
Isabella,
The gospels of Matthew and John were written by Matthew and John who were among the original 12 apostles. The gospel of Luke was written by the physician of the same name that traveled with Paul. Luke also wrote the book, Acts of the Apostles. The gospel of Mark was written by Mark, Peter the Apostles nephew. The authors of most of the Epistles are self identified in them. The epistles of 1, 2, 3 John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ are all penned by the same John that wrote the gospel of John, one of the 12 apostles. This information is commonly accepted and not disputed by anyone except those on the extreme fringe of Biblical history, trying to take it a part. I am quite sure that a brief google search will reveal the same information. I hope this is helpful.
 
There is so much available that states what I posted that I couldn't immediately select one or two from memory. I will search out one or two for you tomorrow. Sorry about the search idea, not being clear, I never imagined that it would be so, my bad.
 
All I am asking is for an academic paper or article about the history of the NT.

Isabella,

This is not an article but I think this might be of help to you as one piece to what you are looking for. It is by the NT scholar Dr. Darrell Bock (Th.M & Ph.D) on historicity of Christ, the Bible, and the reliability of it among other things. If you want something in depth this will be for you.

http://ia600105.us.archive.org/13/items ... eBible.mp3

And here is a powerpoint to go along with his teaching session

http://www.apologeticsreview.com/wp-con ... ation1.pdf
 
An Introductory article by J. Hampton Keathley on the NT with the dates of the books, themes, and other information.
http://bible.org/seriespage/introduction-new-testament

On the historical books of the NT
http://bible.org/seriespage/historical- ... -testament

On the Pauline Epistles
http://bible.org/seriespage/pauline-epistles

Nonpauline or General Epistles
http://bible.org/seriespage/non-pauline-epistles

On Revelation
http://bible.org/seriespage/prophetic-b ... -testament
http://bible.org/series/studies-revelation

And just as an extra touch here is a great article that I think could touch your heart
http://bible.org/article/grace-why-it%E ... nd-awesome

I hope some or all of these help in some way.

Dr. Allen
 
None of that is unbiased, sorry, I don't accept it.

Thanks though.

:D

B
 
And do you think you are unbiased?

None of us as humans are unbiased. The key is do we have the right set of biases. Our presuppositions can either be right or wrong but we all have them.

Furthermore, part of objective research is being able to evaluate another's research with as much neutrality as possible. I challenge you to that, i.e. a thorough read of the articles while examining the evidence on its own merits. You might be surprised at what you will see if you do that.
 
I have read through a bit but don't really have the patience for it to be honest. So I guess that is where my bias lays. If just feels a bit like wading through a lot of things that irritate me to get one kernel of truth.

I just want a site/book/review with the kernels, only the faithful or those really dedicated (read: obsessively devoted) to opposing your belief system really want to read all the other stuff.

I haven't yet read anything that hasn't been challenged elsewhere either. I think that is a problem with relying on books anyway but to each their own.

B
 
but don't really have the patience for it to be honest

Yep I truly understand. Patience is a fruit of the Spirit for those who are in Christ. It is hard even for us in Christ too, so you're not alone in that sense.

If you ever find within you something moving you or giving to you enough patience to digest some of this I still urge you to go back and look at Josh McDowell's work: Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

He as a staunch skeptic set out on a journey to disprove Christianity based upon archaeological, logical, and historical evidence. What he discovered though was the exact opposite and the evidence for Christ Jesus as Lord was so overwhelming he had to admit it was valid, historically true, and that Christ truly did die, arise again, and thus he was indeed the Lord. In his words, the evidence was stronger than all of the counters and even to a skeptic like him he had to admit the facts as they stood.

Catch up with ya later.
 
That's nice Dr. Allen, I am sure this man is much happier now that he doesn't have to waste his time expending energy trying to undermine the belief system of other people. Why not just appreciate that not everyone thinks the same as you do and leave it at that?

B
 
Isabella said:
I DID a brief Google search and read Wikipedia, that's not what it says there about NT history, so if this is commonly accepted why doesn't it say so?

Here is what I found on Wikipedia with 15 seconds of searching (I type slow...):
The identities of each author were agreed upon at an early date, certainly no later than the early 2nd century. It is likely that the issue of the authorship of each gospel had been settled at least somewhat earlier, as the earliest sources are in complete agreement on the issue. Indeed, no one questioned the early 2nd century consensus until the 18th century.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_testament> (in the section about "Authorship.")
This same section says that the authorship is as John Whitten said in his post.

Isabella, IMHO (and I hope my opinion is wrong), you don't really want to know truth, you want to justify your anti-Christ lifestyle and belief system. When you asked for documents and books supporting what we believe, you rejected those offered by Dr. Allen and others because the authors of those documents are "biased." You rejected the work of Josh McDowell, whose anti-Christ-biased research changed his bias from anti-Christ to pro-Christ, and dismissed his extensive and scholarly work with a flippant:
That's nice Dr. Allen, I am sure this man is much happier now that he doesn't have to waste his time expending energy trying to undermine the belief system of other people. Why not just appreciate that not everyone thinks the same as you do and leave it at that?

"Why not just appreciate that not everyone thinks the same as you do and leave it at that?" Because we who are born-again believers in Yeshua Ha'Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) care about those who will end up spending eternity separated from their Creator if they do not accept Jesus the Messiah, God's only begotten Son, God come in the flesh, as Lord and Savior.

As for undermining the belief system of other people, isn't that what the atheists, evolutionists, and other anti-Christ people and groups (including McDowell before his bias changed) attempt to do on a daily basis? And in schools funded by tax dollars, using "research" also funded by tax dollars, at that. They teach that fairy tale called "evolution" as if it were proven scientific fact.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to get a simple translation of the Bible, such as the Bible in Basic English, and read the Gospel of John. John, the author of the Gospel bearing his name, was not only one of the original 12 disciples, but was the disciple to whom Jesus gave the care of His mother while He was hanging on the cross, and was the first man to see the empty tomb. (The empty tomb was first discovered by some women who followed Jesus, not by His male disciples! Read about it in the Gospel of John.) In other words, stop reading about the Bible and just read the Bible itself. Its ultimate author, our Creator, says it best. (But He is very biased!)

You can find the Bible in Basic English to either read online or download here:
<http://www.o-bible.com/bbe.html>

A print version is available from Amazon here:
<http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Basic-English-Paperback/dp/0521506948> but it is out of print and availability is limited.

And you can read about the Bible in Basic English in this Wikipedia article:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_in_Basic_English>

The NIV is also easy to read, but is not a real accurate translation of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that was written by the human authors in the first century AD (New Testament) and approximately 1500 to 500 BC (Old Testament). (That is a major debate in itself and should probably be kept to private discussions among those interested in debating the merits and demerits of one translation or another.) However, it is accurate enough to tell us why we need a Savior, Who that Savior is, and how to be saved.

My personal favorite translation is New King James (NKJV), although it is also not totally accurate. (Actually, no translation from one language to another, whether the Bible or any other literature, can be totally accurate.) The original King James Version is written in what is now ancient English, and the meanings of many words in the English language have changed over the four centuries since it was translated. But if you happen to be a Shakespearean scholar, you will be right at home in the KJV.

Romans 10:9 NKJV ...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 
Wow, that was rude! You know nothing about my lifestyle!

If that is how you prove you "care" I am glad that I am well out of it!!

Thanks but no thanks.

B
 
Isabella said:
I just want a site/book/review with the kernels, only the faithful or those really dedicated (read: obsessively devoted) to opposing your belief system really want to read all the other stuff.
B


I suggest then that you read the case for the resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas. It is specifically designed to use a minimalist approach and stick to the more important details that "most" "qualified" scholars (whether Christian or Non-Christian) agree on, about the claim of the resurrection. He does not base the book on the assumption that the new testament is "divinely inspired" letter by letter although he does not refute or confirm that idea in his book.

If Jesus did not rise from the dead, Christianity is just a silly non-sense religion so who would care about if the new testament was copied accurately anyway, because the new testament would just be something like a fictitious story. ;)

If Winnie the Pooh stories were not copied correctly how would that impact your life anyway? ;)

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 NIV 2011

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Resurrection ... 030&sr=8-3
 
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