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Hypothetical Situation

Dear Lissa,

Most excellent post! I’m surprised more responses haven’t come out of the woodwork. You piqued my interest right away, but with six children and the daily search for socks :), I’m not posting very frequently. This hypothetical situation, however, I just can’t resist, so I’m typing my draft at five in the morning in a quiet house (later, finishing in stolen moments all throughout the morning).

1. How much time can elapse before Ray can tell me he’s talking with another woman? Scriptures? The answer has to be linked with your question #8. What is submission?

Ephesians 5:23-4, 28-30, 33
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything....

So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church....

Nevertheless let each individual among you also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see to it that she respect her husband.

My husband is not God, but he is under God’s headship, covering me under his headship. Ray should not ever need to seek my permission for anything, nor should I make him feel he needs to (vv. 23-24). However, we are not independent of one another. We are one flesh (vv. 28-29). He is encouraged to remain close to me. Case in point: God said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do...? Gen. 18:17 Another case in point: Jesus told John, reclining on Jesus at the Passover table, who was about to betray Him.( John 13:23-26) Intimacy often includes revelation of plans, yet in the example of God and His bride, we could never handle knowing all that He is up to quite yet.

If Ray is tempted to hide his activities from me out of doubt, fear, or lack of God’s leading, we have a potential problem (not irreparable, but not profitable, either). God needs to work in one or both of us, and we need to seek Him always more and more. If Ray knows he’s looking outside of God’s leading, it’s sin (whatever’s not of faith is sin).

Does he see a history of judgement on my part, or attempts to usurp his authority in our family? Or does he see in my history the quiet strength of faith in an Almighty, loving God who answers exceedingly abundantly beyond all we ask or think? (Eph. 3:20) Does he know I follow him in prayer, even when he takes unexpected or seemingly unwise turns?

Someone once said, Submission is not something done to you; it’s done by you. It’s done by intelligent men to the One who holds the universe in the span of His hand. It’s done by intelligent women cheerfully and graciously, for we’ve seen incredible miracles worked when we step out of the way. Contrast the foolish wives of Proverbs 12:4, 14:1 and 21:9, who tear down their houses with their own hands by brow-beating their husbands about every little thing.
Finally, submission is given consciously in order to, according to Titus 2:10b, adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. Note that though the immediate context of bondslaves and masters could give feminists pause, the greater context refers to both men and women in various callings and seasons of life, in the hierarchy of the body of Christ, all serving one another, zealous for good deeds, as we all belong to Christ who redeemed us in sacrificial love. The vision of the church is rightly, To know God and make Him known. Isn’t that what we’re all here on the planet for? So let the Lord lead my husband in the big things as well as the details. I’ll give him room to listen and learn.

Thanks, Lissa, for the challenge. I’ll keep digging!

Love, Deanne

P.S. When I included quotation marks in my last post, they all came out as Swahili or something. Any computer whizzes out there who can give me some tech advice? I left the quotes out of this post to avoid the visual distraction.
 
Nice post. I am going to be very general though. Here is the deal as I understand it. The kingdom of God is a kingdom, not a democracy. We are part of that kingdom through Christ and by grace, (which is the power of God, I Cor. 1:18) through our faith, (which is really love - taking God at His Word and obeying Him - see my teaching titled, 'Faith is Truth'), Ephesians 2:8, John 14:15 and others. God set things up here on earth like it is in heaven, (Matt. 6:10) and He said as long as the earth remains seedtime and harvest would be a functioning law, (Gen. 8:22) and just like the law of gravity, it is automatic. Whatever we sow, that is what we will reap, (Gal. 6:7). If we want to reap everlasting life, then we need to sow that in this life. How do we do that? We sow love. What I mean by that is as follows: the Word says that in Jesus is life and that life is the light of the world. The light shined in the darkness and the darkness did not COMPREHEND it, (John 1:4-5 and I John 2:8). This light is the same as the glory of God, or the knowledge of the Father, that illuminates our minds in order to move us into obedience and perfection in Christ, (see John 17:20-26 and my teaching, 'KNOWLEDGE - The Key to Perfection'). Jesus' blood is that life and represents the love of God, (I Peter 4:8, I John 5:6-8 and others). It is through God's love that our sins are covered and we can be saved, (John 3:16 and others). The love of God is the life that He freely gives us through Jesus. We capture that love through our faith, which is to believe God and DO what He says, REGARDLESS of how we feel about it. This is living faith, (i.e., the faith that brings us into eternal life - James 2:14-26). Anything else is DEAD and ETERNAL DARKNESS. In this life, we have the chance to sow love and therefore reap eternal life by our OBEDIENCE to God. God said for husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church and for the wives to submit to their husbands in EVERYTHING, (Eph. 5:22-33). There is no wiggle room for either husband or wife in these scriptures. By sowing love and sowing obedience to submit in everything, (both are the same) we will reap eternal life. There is no other way to get there. Why do people not just believe it and DO it? The main reason is that people still dwell in the darkness, because they refuse to fear God and obey Him, so He refuses to give them the enlightenment from His knowledge, (Prov. 1:7). It all boils down to selfishness vs. self-less-ness. There is no greater love than for someone to lay down their life for a friend of Jesus. We are His friend, if we obey Him, (John 15:13-14). We are NOT called to lay down our lives for disobedient Christians or non-believers, just treat them with respect. The more love we give or sow now, (especially into the fertile ground of obedient Christians) it will be returned through Christ, MULTIPLIED in this life and the next with eternal life, (Acts 20:35, Matt. 10:39, 16:24-28 and Mark 10:29-30). We should be EAGER to do these things and NOT resist the Spirit of God, (I Thes. 5:19).

Be blessed,


Dr. Ray
 
shucks, girl
ya dun wore me out with just the questions, much less trying to answer them.

truth to tell, the submission of the women always seems to come up but why is his submission never in queston?
1 cor. 11 tells us that his head is Yeshua. he had better be listening to and following his own Leader in this whole scenario or it is going to fall like a house of cards.
i am learning more and more that as i seek His will and have a relationship with Him things go much better than when i try to live according to my understanding of His Word and have a relationship with it.

i hope that you can figure out what i am trying to say as i am not a very good nor prolific writer
 
now there's a good answer Steve, I like it.
what I've found though, while following Yahushua, is lots of people have opinions that differ from his leading, and sometimes the human din makes it difficult to hear his voice......
anyone have any filtering earplugs that shut out the human din?

Anyway, Lisa, this is probably too much for me to even attempt to handle, but I'll keep an eye on this subject.
Indeed, any relationships are hard, it's a complex thing, and trust is always so hard to come by, so I'd think honesty is the best policy, even though the very subject of polygyny has caused great difficulty between me and my wife
 
There ya go, SweetLissa! Straight to the heart of the hard questions! *sigh*

Does anyone else agree that these are probably the hardest questions all PM families wrestle with? All the time?

I don't feel qualified to give definitive answers to all of these, but if you don't mind I'd like to opine on a couple of topics.

Transparency is better than opaqueness. A husband worth having in this setting would probably prefer to be completely transparent and talk to his existing wife(s) from the moment another lady even catches his eye.

Having said that, his wives have the definite ability to foster or reduce his level of transparency as to his thinking processes about most EVERYTHING. If attempts at transparency are met with interest, and respectful thoughtful discussion, it is likely to continue and grow. If it is met with an instant emotional storm, argument, tears, accusation, and he senses that she's got an agenda of her own going on, he's likely to guard his thoughts more carefully and argue for his right to independant choice and action. Regretable? Yes, but I think true, nonetheless.

Further, I suspect God does the same with us. We can draw closer to Him when we join up with what He is doing, or at least argue with Him from a right spot rather than from trying to get our own way. *shrug* Just my idea.

But it does relate. Proverbs says that a wife is a gift from God to a man. Wives may want veto rights. However, that would put them in a position between God and the man, rather than under authority. This would be much like recently happened in my home, when I bought my wife a really nice new cell phone to replace her dying one. The kids jumped in with complaints, saying it was no fair for me to get HER a gift like that and not upgrade theirs as well, or first! (Guess who can now testify that their complaints are ignored! *grin*)

Having said all of that, we men really oughta listen to our wives real carefully before pursuing additional relationships. Is our existing family in a good enough place? Or are we merely getting an urge? And if not, is it out of a general I-don't-want-you-to-get-anybody-else or are there still true and appropriate issues being worked out? Particularly if your existing family is blended, including children from another relationship, that has to be considered really really carefully.
 
One more set of thoughts.

Looking at the rules in the Bible, (OT), I've been struck by the similarity between the Biblical processes leading up to marriage, and the modern process of purchasing a home. No disrespect intended. It is the similarity in process that strikes me.

Short version:
** A "proposal" or an "offer" is made.
** If accepted, the lady is "betrothed" and the property is "under contract".
** A period, however long or short, then follows during which due diligence can be performed and no-one else can horn in, though there typically are appropriate escape clauses agreed upon when the original proposal/offer was made.
* What if, as they spend more time together, one betrothed partner discovers that the other has a violent temper, normally kept carefully hidden?
* What if, during due diligence, the prospective purchaser discovers that the the foundation and walls are cracked and sinking but artfully patched for showing?
** This culminates at an event, a "wedding" or a "closing" respectively.
** And finally, the marriage is "consumated", the property is "occupied".

To me, this makes sense of some of the rules God gave Moses. For example, if you get all the way intimate with a lady before marrying her, you're supposed to marry her and lose the right to bail out due to standard clauses, right? Makes sense. God is saying, in effect, if you just move into a house, you gotta go back and go through the steps and pay up. You lost the right to just move on! But the owner has a right to say, "No way! I ain't sellin'!", in which case you're liable for fines!
 
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