-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Interested in advice
- Thread starter Stranger
- Start date
I asked if it was a man or woman because if it was a woman (and a former pastor) I'll guarantee you she's toxic. But that is not the case here being he is a man.
Long term @Raw Truth is probably right. And esp. about how he'll react to polygamy. But short term it is possible he can help her sort through psychological issues; or at least help you better understand what her problem is. Not that I'm a fan of therapists, but not every husband is equipped to handle the more difficult psychological issues.
Long term @Raw Truth is probably right. And esp. about how he'll react to polygamy. But short term it is possible he can help her sort through psychological issues; or at least help you better understand what her problem is. Not that I'm a fan of therapists, but not every husband is equipped to handle the more difficult psychological issues.
Something to consider along those lines...not every husband is good at showing appreciation for the work women do for them. That may be something you need to improve so she feels valuable to you. Or it could be your negative comments over the years have re-enforced this perception.
On the other hand it may be you're not attempting to make her a valuable part of your team and so she is a burden (though not of her own making).
Or she could just be using it to manipulate or fish for compliments.
Lots of possibilities. Only you can figure them out.
This is absolutely crucial. Do not raise this issue until she is no longer seeing this therapist.
The problem with male counsellors / therapists / marriage guidance counsellors and so forth is that all men want to protect and care for women. This is good. But it is a feature Satan can twist to evil effect. Sometimes he does this by getting the therapist to think "her husband is a jerk, I'd do a better job of taking care of her", and starting an affair. That's the "bad" option that everyone would condemn (but still happens sadly too often). More commonly though he more subtly uses this to destroy marriage, by getting the therapist to "rescue" the woman by helping her to leave her husband and be single. That's the "good" option that most people would cheer him for, because he's saved a woman from abuse. And in some cases it is justified. But it can still be used when it is not justified.
At present, none of this seems to be a problem. But start talking about polygamy, and to the Christian therapist you will seem like a lust-fuelled potential adulterer. You immediately shift yourself into the "bad husband I have to rescue this woman from" box in his mind. Then Satan will work from there, and there's a strong risk he will use that therapist to tear your marriage apart - while he thinks he is doing God's work. So don't mention a word of this until she's not seeing that therapist.
Everyone else has given excellent and universal logical advice that this is an unwise idea. I agree with this, and would say so myself if others had not already said so.
So I'll just add a little qualifier to it - which is not a disagreement in any way, rather an agreement with added nuance.
Remember that you know your wife, and we do not. And every woman is different.
There may be a place for this sort of discussion, once your wife is not seeing a therapist of course, if it comes up naturally. Do not sit her down and formally propose this sort of thing - as others have said that is likely to make her more depressed. However, if she is upset that she's not good enough and saying you'd be better off with someone else, there MAY be the option of asking her questions she would not expect, like "who?" (make it real, not theoretical), "but she's a terrible cook, she might be good at X but I need you for Y", "if that is a good idea, why would you think you had to kill yourself for us to do it?". Neither proposing to do this yourself, NOR proposing to put her in charge of finding you another wife, both which have been clearly spoken against by others. But simply helping her to work through her thought processes herself. With her talking at least 10x as much as you, so she can process her thoughts aloud. Never saying "I want to do this", because that is what would lead to insecurity, but seeing if she comes up with something like this as her own idea.
Your primary aim in that discussion would be to help her to see the positive things about herself by comparison to other real women. It is easy for a woman to think she's not as good as a hypothetical perfect other wife you could have if she were gone. But if when asked "who?" she thinks of Jane from the tennis club, and she knows all of Jane's flaws, she might realise that the hypothetical other would not actually necessarily be better than herself, at least not universally. This line of conversation, provided it was occurring primarily in her own brain and not from yours, could actually boost her self-confidence. Your job in that would be simply to point out her features and the other woman's flaws, to boost her thinking.
If she herself came to the idea that "actually, what if Jane and I were a team", that might be an interesting outcome. An unlikely outcome, but one that God could lead her thinking to if that is His intention. And in the unlikely event that her thinking went in this direction, your role would be to maintain control and direction of the outcome. You're in charge, not her. And in most circumstances the wise decision would be "no". You're dealing with an emotional wife after all who could easily be torn down by the stress of this. Her thoughts might go in all sorts of random directions but you're providing the calm, rational handbrake.
Don't propose it to her yourself, or put her in charge of it. But you may be able to use aspects of this thinking as thought prompts to help her to see her own good qualities if and where you, knowing your wife, see that this could be helpful. Maybe one day that will lead you to an interesting future, but do not plan for or even hope for that.
You have a wife today, and your job is to be the best husband you can be for her. Keep focussed on her.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but very, very few therapists are equipped to deal with minor psychological issues, much less difficult ones. Easily 90% of the people I went to therapist training with were inevitably going to go out and harm people rather than help them. Some were outright dangerous. Most were simply incompetent, which in itself is dangerous to someone who goes into working with them with an expectation that the therapy process will help.
Even an uneducated husband starts off being far more capable of helping his women sort through difficult psychological issues, because he knows her. I mean, any man who cares about his women will not want to even open up the possibility that a male or female therapist will become more intimate with her than he already is. And, unfortunately, in my fairly considerable experience in psychotherapy venues, one of the most common behaviors of therapists who have little in the way of skills, competence, intuition or a commitment to breakthroughs is to remain stuck in the initial creating-rapport stage, which, when perpetuated leads to no further insight or transformation but instead leads to higher and higher levels of inappropriate intimacy between therapist and client. Deep intimacy for little purpose is the breeding ground of loss of boundaries and divided allegiances.
In summation, one of the most frequent actual results of being in therapy is for clients to cheat on their spouses, sometimes even with their therapists.
Add that to the problem I rant about frequently, which is that therapists for the most part promote a sense of victimhood in their clients, and the odds of being in therapy amounting to a net gain are the opposite of those that would make it worth expending one's resources for it.
I am highly honored and truly humbled by your commendation. She is not sure why she thinks the way she does about herself and the best I am able to do having not been present from her early days is speculate. I don't think it came from her immediate family, at least not intentionally. I will continue to pray for guidance on both our parts in that regard. Figuring out where the way she percieves herself arises I think is key.
@Stranger, I commend you for being such a dedicated husband to your wife who is struggling with lots of different issues. The above quote sums it all up for me, though. She was told a lie regarding her worth many years ago and is holding on to it for, I am sure, various reasons. I would encourage you to ask the Lord to show her what that moment was in her life and that He would show her what the Truth really is regarding whatever happened then. Personally, I would also pray for curses said over her by a family member or a friend. Words are powerful and can bring negative spiritual consequences to us if spoken "over" us by some person. She has probably spent years pivoting between wanting to feel she has some value in life, to being over whelmed with the feeling worthless so why try anymore. I don't think any amount of words from you will be able to shine the light of truth on this lie. I suspect it has been around for a very long time and has woven itself within the definition of herself. Only God can reveal what the Truth is to her and remove the lie from her spirit. But you have the important position of being her Spiritual leader and thus can ask God to move in her spirit and reveal what needs to be revealed, along with lovingly push her to face her negative thoughts. I suspect you are up for this emotionally draining task since you are contemplating marrying another woman to some how make things better for her emotionally. I also believe that if this root issue is dealt with then you will be astounded at how many other issues start disappearing.
I recommend the book, Captivating by John and Staci Eldredge, or something similar, after the lie has been dealt with. It will give her some truth to dwell on. Along with all the things you have been telling her for years.
I do understand that I am basing all of this on a "few" words that you have written. I can only hope that you will reap something good from my thoughts.
I aggree that a professional therapist is not ideal. The fact he is male is incidental at the moment. She has only ever had sessions with him over zoom and she has wanted me to be with her, either for support or to talk about an issue she thinks concerns me, in more than half of them. I am not currently concerned about him on the grounds of how he would feel about polygyny either. If we ever take that route I'd expect resistance from avenues much more significant in terms of our relationships to others. I also wouldn't want to put her through the strain of that kind of situation unless I knew she was as committed to the idea as I was. I may have the authority in the household to do otherwise but authority unconstrained by love and wisdom can quickly devolve into tyranny.
I agree that the responsibility of instruction falls on the husband and I encourage her in the truth when I am able and she is willing. We are used to quite different levels of Bible study and my approach tends to overwhelm her so I am still learning how to make what I've learned digestable for her and to improve her biblical literacy sufficiently for her to be able to be comfortable participating with me mid-study. In the meantime I do not fault her for reading books or otherwise recieving instruction more atuned to her present level of understanding, so long as they aren't teaching anything objectionable to the truth of Christ.
I should state that I am not currently considering polygyny as a "good" unto itself that ought be pursued but rather an option God leaves open to us.
I should state that I am not currently considering polygyny as a "good" unto itself that ought be pursued but rather an option God leaves open to us.
I do have some failings in this regard. I am physically and verbally affectionate enough and rarely miss an opportunity to compliment her, but I also have an easy time missing details in conversations or having my mind shift gears to another topic and lose focus on what she is saying. She really does not like it when I later ask her about something that she already mentioned in a conversation that I missed. This makes her feel like what she says doesn't matter to me. When we first started talking a lot of our conversations were video chat and I would jot down notes about what she was saying. I think I inadvertently gave her a false impression of how attentive I am normally to details.
I would continue to take notes, but it becomes much more awkward to do so when in person.
I would continue to take notes, but it becomes much more awkward to do so when in person.
Could be that I'm currently guilty of seeing things through the lens of trouble I'm wrestling in my own household, but I'm beginning to get the impression that, while your motivation to want to solve your wife's problems is laudable, that might not even have an end game. @rockfox mentioned manipulation, and it sounds to me like this could be a case of manipulating for the sake of keeping your marriage dominated by your wife's 'issues.'
I do not think she is consciously manipulating me but I think that she instinctively reacts out of fear when her insecurities are aggravated.
I do that all the time. Because I'm male. That is normal, and she frankly needs to learn that that's how men are.
This humorously gives one explanation of why things stick in the mind of a woman but slip from the mind of a man. I'm not claiming the analogy is perfect - but you both might find it useful.
First of all, @Stranger, if you don't mind, could you follow the protocol and provide your response after what you're quoting. That helps all of us know what you're responding to.
Maybe, but in my experience it tends to be a mistake to give women that kind of benefit of the doubt. They are capable of far more self-awareness than we sometimes want to give them credit for. I invite you to do some extended observation of this pattern you're describing. Make a mental note each time it seems to be the case to you "that she instinctively reacts out of fear when her insecurities are aggravated" about just this one thing: is she more or less likely to get her way when she 'instinctively' reacts out of fear when her 'insecurities' are 'aggravated?' You've missed some earlier threads in which we've discussed the myth of 'triggering.' It's the same thing as what used to be called having a chip on one's shoulder -- having something that everyone else has to tiptoe around in order to avoid getting one upset. It can also be labeled a 'racket.' It may have begun unconsciously, but it's still a purposeful strategy to control others. Passive-aggression is a similar strategy, wherein one controls others by what one doesn't or won't do. In either case, the unconscious or conscious point is to dominate and control others for the purpose of getting what one wants in addition to dominating. These days we are all too quick to play junior counselor (partly because it strokes our own egos) by assigning motivations to mysterious unconscious forces of unknown and/or nefarious origins. What we fail to recognize when we do that is what the pay-off is for the person who supposedly has no control over hir reactions.
The next thing to observe is whether your wife resists becoming free of her insecurities.
Look for the pay-offs. For her and for you, because you may be just as reluctant for her to let go of her insecurities.
Maybe, but in my experience it tends to be a mistake to give women that kind of benefit of the doubt. They are capable of far more self-awareness than we sometimes want to give them credit for. I invite you to do some extended observation of this pattern you're describing. Make a mental note each time it seems to be the case to you "that she instinctively reacts out of fear when her insecurities are aggravated" about just this one thing: is she more or less likely to get her way when she 'instinctively' reacts out of fear when her 'insecurities' are 'aggravated?' You've missed some earlier threads in which we've discussed the myth of 'triggering.' It's the same thing as what used to be called having a chip on one's shoulder -- having something that everyone else has to tiptoe around in order to avoid getting one upset. It can also be labeled a 'racket.' It may have begun unconsciously, but it's still a purposeful strategy to control others. Passive-aggression is a similar strategy, wherein one controls others by what one doesn't or won't do. In either case, the unconscious or conscious point is to dominate and control others for the purpose of getting what one wants in addition to dominating. These days we are all too quick to play junior counselor (partly because it strokes our own egos) by assigning motivations to mysterious unconscious forces of unknown and/or nefarious origins. What we fail to recognize when we do that is what the pay-off is for the person who supposedly has no control over hir reactions.
The next thing to observe is whether your wife resists becoming free of her insecurities.
Look for the pay-offs. For her and for you, because you may be just as reluctant for her to let go of her insecurities.
It could be her controlled by her own fears. And that is an opening for you to work scripture into her heart as God has much to say on that.
It could also be her subconsciously manipulating you. Such machinations often occur from instinct without complete conscious awareness of what she's doing. The only thing to do about this is to help her become more integrated and aware of her instinctual drives. Such conversations may be very uncomfortable for her.
But it might not be manipulations at all. Or it might not have started that way. But Keith may be right as well. There is a type of woman, the waif, who is really good at these manipulations and your wife could be that type.
I can't know from this end of the screen. You just have to be aware of the possibilities and do as Keith well adviced: watch your wife. Learn her. Know her. Understand her better than she knows herself.
It is common for people with depression to consider themselves a burden, and to think about suicide.
They feel that the world is not a good place, and they feel that they don't belong anywhere. So they direct this anger inward.
They were mostly inhibited and passive children.
If she has ever thought about suicide, she will certainly do it one day, and it will not be your fault..
This is not true. Many people have suicidal thoughts, but for most this is just a stage of depression, which they get over and do not act on. Some do commit suicide, sadly. But it is NOT inevitable that everyone with suicidal thoughts will eventually commit suicide. That is a dangerous and defeatist attitude.
I don't agree .. isn't it worse for a person to live without perspective of a good future?
It is best for them to find the future God has for them, and learn to have joy in it @Julia Mykaele. This may be a much better future than they anticipate while they are depressed and suicidal. Just because someone is not able to foresee a good future for themself does not mean a good future does not exist. While someone is depressed they will be unable to see a good future ahead - because they are depressed. This is circular reasoning.
John 10:10 states "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
Thoughts of killing and destruction are from Satan. Jesus has come so that we may have abundant life. When times are tough, Satan whispers "kill yourself", while God says "turn to me and have life".
John 20:31: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
John 10:10 states "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
Thoughts of killing and destruction are from Satan. Jesus has come so that we may have abundant life. When times are tough, Satan whispers "kill yourself", while God says "turn to me and have life".
John 20:31: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."