Is Plural Marriage based on Old Covenant Laws, meant only to be understood spiritually?

[Cap]

A lot of discussion has been going on about Old Covenant Laws and their application in a New Covenant world. I have argued that the Law is important but it's understanding can only be achieved with a New Covenant spiritual mindset.

Then the thought occurred to me that plural marriage might be in the same category. Most of what I know of PM's acceptance comes from the Old Covenant. Very little is spoken of in the new. I have known this principal for over seven years (some of you much longer) and I have yet to hear of any recent success stories. Heart ache, pain, deciet, divorce, broken families, is all you hear. There are no families to celebrate. There are old established PM families that we cling to, and I am beyond grateful for them and all they have done, but where is the new?

So that leads me to think, PM is an Old Covenant style marriage relationship meant only to be understood from a spiritual New Covenant understanding.

The only verse that leads to a future possibly is Isaeah 4:1, but that's debatable. We live our lives hoping for this reality to manifest, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Maybe we are to understand the PM relationship spiritually and that's all there is. But yet, maybe if we understood it spiritually that's all we need

Help me out.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

I agree that there are many spiritual lessons to be derived from plural marriage. However, there are practical aspects to it, as well. Our culture is so conditioned against just the idea of PM, that at the practical side is often overlooked. A lot of re-education, along with a heathy dose of revelation, is required to transition back to this way of life. It is difficult fighting against church, family friends, and public opinion. But just being a Christian is often followed with the same issues. If our modern society becomes unable to function to the level it does now (with women being provided for by the government programs) the practical side will acutely become more apparent. But even now, the spiritual leadership aspects are still valid. The devil takes great advantage of the spiritual leadership vacuum to keep our society, in many ways, very dysfunctional.

 

[PeteR]

@Cap , I believe you are onto something as I have thought for a long time. We did just have a monster discussion on the place of the Law, and I do not want to go there, but please hear me out for a minute and I think I can share a bit of why I think we have this big plural awakening going on. It has deep physical and spiritual implications.

In Jeremiah 31:35-37, immediately after the new covenant, the Lord says, '(paraphrasing) see the sun, moon and ocean waves? If you can make them go away, then the offspring of Israel will cease to be a nation. If you can measure the heavens, then I will cast off the offspring of Israel.'

This promise is repeated multiple times and woven into multiple prophecies not yet fulfilled. Bottom line, Israel will be restored as a nation, all thirteen tribes. The Father will do it.

He describes Israel as two brides. The house of Judah and the house of Israel. Judah remained in covenant, Israel rebelled, committed adultery (idolatry) and was divorced. Jer. 3. Neither was perfect. Both have big issues, but He LOVES them both. Judah is the Jews. Israel is Christendom. (See Matthew 15:24)

They have spent the last 2000 years fighting. Jealousy, selfishness, pride, anger, etc.

Judah, having stayed 'in the husband's house' (see the prodigal son story... same story) is not interested in sharing anything that belongs to the husband. Israel who left, now wants to come home because the husband (Yeshua) came after her and woo-ed her. Only now, she is all uppity and thinks she is better than sister wife Judah and thinks she has exclusive claim over the husband. Yeshua has the unenviable task of molding and working in both to bring them together into one house.

With this picture in mind, let's read Isaiah 11:11-14...

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Notice, specifically, 'vex' is the very same word used in Lev. 18:18!!! This is a passage about restoring two wives that are sisters and at war with one another.

Here is the point. YOU ARE RIGHT!! There is a DEEP spiritual element to this whole thing. In one sense, physical and spiritual cannot be separated. We are spiritual beings with a physical experience, not physical beings with a spiritual experience. Why is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob awakening His people to plural marriage? Maybe, just maybe, He did it so that as we go through the challenges of working out the physical elements of bringing peace and unity to our houses, we experience in a very small way what He is experiencing as He brings both houses back together. Maybe it is also a way to sift and purify His people to prepare them for the Millennial Kingdom. Maybe it is a way that He can teach us about house rules and obedience and compassion, leadership, headship, etc...

I see this as a very spiritual endeavor that is played out in the physical. But, it is much much bigger than us as individuals, as families or even as BF.

I wrote a whole book on the prophesies and how the Father is putting the two houses back together. I don't cover it from a plural marriage perspective because that is a bridge too far for my audience, but it is absolutely a part of the equation that is both physical and spiritual.

 

[David D]

A lot of discussion has been going on about Old Covenant Laws and their application in a New Covenant world. I have argued that the Law is important but it's understanding can only be achieved with a New Covenant spiritual mindset.

Then the thought occurred to me that plural marriage might be in the same category. Most of what I know of PM's acceptance comes from the Old Covenant. Very little is spoken of in the new. I have known this principal for over seven years (some of you much longer) and I have yet to hear of any recent success stories. Heart ache, pain, deciet, divorce, broken families, is all you hear. There are no families to celebrate. There are old established PM families that we cling to, and I am beyond grateful for them and all they have done, but where is the new?

So that leads me to think, PM is an Old Covenant style marriage relationship meant only to be understood from a spiritual New Covenant understanding.

The only verse that leads to a future possibly is Isaeah 4:1, but that's debatable. We live our lives hoping for this reality to manifest, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Maybe we are to understand the PM relationship spiritually and that's all there is. But yet, maybe if we understood it spiritually that's all we need

Help me out.

Largely I think the problem is a lack of people that are seeking the father and worshiping in spirit and truth.
There is few men that can head a plural family and few women that can behave appropriately. With everyone fat and happy with their mammon towers and jet skis they are not interested in serving someone other than themself.

Really not much fear and trembling going on. No real respect for Gods rightous ways.

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJVA‬‬

 

[rockfox]

I don't believe we can spiritualize away plural marriage. That's not consistent with the text and I'm not in favor of that approach to scripture interpretation anyway.

The lack of success stories has more tangible causes...marriage in our society is dying. If you marry the average women, statistically speaking, you've a 90% chance of one or both of your wives leaving. I expect to see mostly failures and I expect it to be hard to find a woman worth wifing up.

 

[David D]

I don't believe we can spiritualize away plural marriage. That's not consistent with the text and I'm not in favor of that approach to scripture interpretation anyway.

The lack of success stories has more tangible causes...marriage in our society is dying. If you marry the average women, statistically speaking, you've a 90% chance of one or both of your wives leaving. I expect to see mostly failures and I expect it to be hard to find a woman worth wifing up.

A Godly woman is rare short and simple. If you have one your very blessed.

 

[rockfox]

A Godly woman is rare short and simple. If you have one your very blessed.

Plenty of 'Godly women' torpedo their marriages and lots of pagan cultures had lower divorce rate than us. It's decidedly more complex than that.

 

[David D]

Plenty of 'Godly women' torpedo their marriages and lots of pagan cultures had lower divorce rate than us. It's decidedly more complex than that.

I’m not sure a woman that has a heart for the true God and His ways and understands marriage would be very likely torpedo a good marriage. There is plenty of “Godly” catholic ladies out there. I am speaking of daughters of Isreal. The illusive proverbs 31 woman.

 

[rockfox]

I’m not sure a woman that has a heart for the true God and His ways and understands marriage would be very likely torpedo a good marriage. There is plenty of “Godly” catholic ladies out there. I am speaking of daughters of Isreal. The illusive proverbs 31 woman.

Then there are no truly Godly women because the Christian divorce rate is barely different from the non-Christian one; at least, not enough to go around anyway. Even in Israel the Prov 31 woman was illusive. Even the daughters of the new covenant in Titus 2 had to be reminded to love their children and husbands.

I don't think the answer to a good marriage is to find that 'right woman' who won't attempt to tear down her house. They all have the same carnal nature. The best you can do is to find one who hasn't been damaged beyond repair in loosing her virtue and then lead her well.

The problem is, in today's society that is a dwindling number of women.

 

[David D]

Then there are no truly Godly women because the Christian divorce rate is barely different from the non-Christian one; at least, not enough to go around anyway. Even in Israel the Prov 31 woman was illusive. Even the daughters of the new covenant in Titus 2 had to be reminded to love their children and husbands.

I don't think the answer to a good marriage is to find that 'right woman' who won't attempt to tear down her house. They all have the same carnal nature. The best you can do is to find one who hasn't been damaged beyond repair in loosing her virtue and then lead her well.

The problem is, in today's society that is a dwindling number of women.

Yes, that is realistic. Although there is women that are waking up to the truth and seeking Biblical relationships.

 

[rockfox]

Although there is women that are waking up to the truth and seeking Biblical relationships.

Theoretically sure, but I'm not seeing that in any real numbers.

 

[Cap]

@Cap , I believe you are onto something as I have thought for a long time. We did just have a monster discussion on the place of the Law, and I do not want to go there, but please hear me out for a minute and I think I can share a bit of why I think we have this big plural awakening going on. It has deep physical and spiritual implications.

In Jeremiah 31:35-37, immediately after the new covenant, the Lord says, '(paraphrasing) see the sun, moon and ocean waves? If you can make them go away, then the offspring of Israel will cease to be a nation. If you can measure the heavens, then I will cast off the offspring of Israel.'

This promise is repeated multiple times and woven into multiple prophecies not yet fulfilled. Bottom line, Israel will be restored as a nation, all thirteen tribes. The Father will do it.

He describes Israel as two brides. The house of Judah and the house of Israel. Judah remained in covenant, Israel rebelled, committed adultery (idolatry) and was divorced. Jer. 3. Neither was perfect. Both have big issues, but He LOVES them both. Judah is the Jews. Israel is Christendom. (See Matthew 15:24)

They have spent the last 2000 years fighting. Jealousy, selfishness, pride, anger, etc.

Judah, having stayed 'in the husband's house' (see the prodigal son story... same story) is not interested in sharing anything that belongs to the husband. Israel who left, now wants to come home because the husband (Yeshua) came after her and woo-ed her. Only now, she is all uppity and thinks she is better than sister wife Judah and thinks she has exclusive claim over the husband. Yeshua has the unenviable task of molding and working in both to bring them together into one house.

With this picture in mind, let's read Isaiah 11:11-14...

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Notice, specifically, 'vex' is the very same word used in Lev. 18:18!!! This is a passage about restoring two wives that are sisters and at war with one another.

Here is the point. YOU ARE RIGHT!! There is a DEEP spiritual element to this whole thing. In one sense, physical and spiritual cannot be separated. We are spiritual beings with a physical experience, not physical beings with a spiritual experience. Why is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob awakening His people to plural marriage? Maybe, just maybe, He did it so that as we go through the challenges of working out the physical elements of bringing peace and unity to our houses, we experience in a very small way what He is experiencing as He brings both houses back together. Maybe it is also a way to sift and purify His people to prepare them for the Millennial Kingdom. Maybe it is a way that He can teach us about house rules and obedience and compassion, leadership, headship, etc...

I see this as a very spiritual endeavor that is played out in the physical. But, it is much much bigger than us as individuals, as families or even as BF.

I wrote a whole book on the prophesies and how the Father is putting the two houses back together. I don't cover it from a plural marriage perspective because that is a bridge too far for my audience, but it is absolutely a part of the equation that is both physical and spiritual.

Pete, I'm going to accept your analogy of the struggle with the two houses. It does make sense to me. Right now, it appears that any present time conflict in building a plural family is directly related to getting two wives (or potential wives) to agree to live in the same house, under the rules (headship) of the husband. Every struggle I have encountered, or watched others encounter, has been for this reason alone, mostly. And so, if God is bringing His two wives back together, (and they don't like each other) it is a perfect example of where we are now. It's the struggle us men face every day in the pursuit of PM. It describes the fears each wife faces about the other wife being in the same home, or in the same life as their husband. The tables have turned, now us men get to see what it is like to be a wife in a plural marriage.

This is an amazing thing you bring up. It describes a lot of whats going on. It might even describe why we have had to go through this heavy discussion on the importance of the Law and how it relates to both houses. Neither is wrong, but we have to learn how to live together in our Fathers (Husband's) house under His leadership, not ours. We are the wives that need to get along to make His home a loving place.

God Bless you @PeteR . We have found common ground.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

But yet, maybe if we understood it spiritually that's all we need

This is defiantly true for some. PM, in a physical relationship, is not required practice. The spiritual lessons are lessons for all. The demonstration of the physical manifestation by some sharpens the understanding of the spiritual aspects and takes the teaching beyond just theory. One can study physics and chemistry in theory without doing the lab work, but some engage in the 'lab work' demonstrating the theory valid and discover new understandings backed by real life example.

 

[Cap]

This is defiantly true for some. PM, in a physical relationship, is not required practice. The spiritual lessons are lessons for all. The demonstration of the physical manifestation by some sharpens the understanding of the spiritual aspects and takes the teaching beyond just theory. One can study physics and chemistry in theory without doing the lab work, but some engage in the 'lab work' demonstrating the theory valid and discover new understandings backed by real life example.

This is all true, however one wouldn't learn much if all their physics and chemistry experiments failed each time they tried. And so, there must be something more to taking the class even if the experiments fail. The idea @PeteR put forth about the two houses (wives) trying to learn to live together is, I believe, a main spiritual lesson that can be gained from the physical manifestation of plural marriage, whether it is lived out or not. Everything in the old covenant has a higher spiritual meaning in the new covenant.

(Remember, I am part of the Israel wife, not to be confused with the Judah wife.)

 

[PeteR]

This is all true, however one wouldn't learn much if all their physics and chemistry experiments failed each time they tried. And so, there must be something more to taking the class even if the experiments fail. The idea @PeteR put forth about the two houses (wives) trying to learn to live together is, I believe, a main spiritual lesson that can be gained from the physical manifestation of plural marriage, whether it is lived out or not. Everything in the old covenant has a higher spiritual meaning in the new covenant.

(Remember, I am part of the Israel wife, not to be confused with the Judah wife.)

Indeed, you are part of the Israel bride as are most on this board. I say most because there are several here that are part of the Judah side.

I wrote an article 18 months ago that connects more dots: https://natsab.com/2018/03/02/does-god-have-two-brides/

It was through plural and particularly seeing the challenges @Judgemenot has gone through in wrestling over this very Biblical concept that I began to understand the direct relation to prophecy and what Abba is doing. And it took me so much deeper in my understanding than I had when I wrote Ten Parts in the King, The Prophesied Reconciliation of God's Two Witnesses.

If you can find the time, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the article and on the book.

Blessings.

 

[Cap]

Indeed, you are part of the Israel bride as are most on this board. I say most because there are several here that are part of the Judah side.

I wrote an article 18 months ago that connects more dots: https://natsab.com/2018/03/02/does-god-have-two-brides/

It was through plural and particularly seeing the challenges @Judgemenot has gone through in wrestling over this very Biblical concept that I began to understand the direct relation to prophecy and what Abba is doing. And it took me so much deeper in my understanding than I had when I wrote Ten Parts in the King, The Prophesied Reconciliation of God's Two Witnesses.

If you can find the time, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the article and on the book.

Blessings.

I read your article and understand your position and I agree with it. The whole point in all this and the discussion on the Law we have had here proves that we are made up of the two wives of God. Each having different personalities and each bringing our husband pleasure in our own unique way. For either side to force the other to be like themselves only creates strife in the family. Something we each as husbands most face as we try and build a family with two, or more women with different personalities.

 

[PeteR]

I read your article and understand your position and I agree with it. The whole point in all this and the discussion on the Law we have had here proves that we are made up of the two wives of God. Each having different personalities and each bringing our husband pleasure in our own unique way. For either side to force the other to be like themselves only creates strife in the family. Something we each as husbands most face as we try and build a family with two, or more women with different personalities.

Agreed, though I would adjust the thought slightly....

In your house, do you have a different set of rules for each lady? Or, are the 'house rules' the same for both ladies, but maybe how they carry them out is different?

I would think, and this is where you know more than I ( I have only one awesome woman and no experience with a second..), that if the husband had two different standards or sets of rules, that would be a recipe for strife. However, if both have the same 'rules/instructions' but there is room for personality within the observance, then there is peace, harmony, joy. Does that sound right?

[I want to dig into the dynamic between ladies and husband and how the micro picture we see can help us understand the really big prophetic picture.]

Blessings.

 

[Cap]

In your house, do you have a different set of rules for each lady? Or, are the 'house rules' the same for both ladies, but maybe how they carry them out is different?

I too only have one awesome wife, but have had some pretty good preliminary experience with trying to get two women to understand the rules that the house was going to operate in. Granted it didn't work out so well, but nevertheless I got a good view of the mountain ahead.

It has always been my understanding from the gurus who do live in plural families that they don't operate from the idea of equality but more from the idea of fairness. Therefore, each wife is treated fairly based on their understanding of the "house rules". A wife of 20 years maybe treated differently than a wife of 2, in all fairness. The wife of 20 years would naturally have a better understanding of the rules than a wife of 2 but that doesn't mean she is loved less.

Not to compare wives to children, but same goes for older and younger children. An older child can be treated differently than a younger child when it comes to house rules and responsibilities in keeping them.

So I see no reason why God couldn't treat wives from different backgrounds differently based on their understanding and ability to keep said house rules.

Take the prodigal son analogy. Who would be more appreciative about the father's mercy, the one who left or the one who stayed. Who would understand the law of the house in a higher sense? Wouldn't it be the one who knew the law but also knew the mercy extended to him?

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

Okay, so I read the whole thread, wanted to comment but didn't, then left the thread and visited a couple of others. Then I saw that @Cap had posted more and couldn't resist coming back to read the additional comments.

So maybe I'm completely out on a limb since 1.) It's only guys so far discussing this idea 2.) I'm single so can't even comment on a current status of keeping or making house rules work 3.) I've never been in a plural family and 4.) If I were in a plural family because of my age, I probably would not be dealing with all the issues surrounding mulitple children with more than one mama.

However, IMHO, the key is learning to defer to the sister or husband's wishes. It strikes me as odd that 5 college girls can learn to get along in a small dorm room and make it through a year or siblings in a large monogamous family can learn to all get along--it takes a LOT of deference, grease, and grace; but that the same courtesy would all of a sudden be withheld should there be a man who would love, honor, protect, provide, and cover however many sisters would be under his tent. No more than there can be a tug-o-war in the dorm room or among siblings, can that begin to happen in a plural family. The goal should be to support and work to accomplish that vision the man has cast, to be a team player, to strive to always be part of the solution, not the problem. There's so much joy and comaradre that comes from being part of a team--sports, band/orchestra/choir, play cast, defense (any branch of the military), and the list could go on! It's an honor to be associated with that group. There's an identity that only those in that group share. Only those in that specific group have that group's goals in front of them. They all are working for the good of the leader's goal(s). The synergy generated compels the group forward. No one is perfect so no one should be expecting that of another human being. Keeping a short list before the Father and with each other goes a long ways in building rather than dividing. So many have had so much; they truly don't know what it's like to pull together when things get tough or there isn't enough of . . . . . . (fill in the blank) .

So forgive me, please, if this seems off topic from the title of the thread. Old or New Covenant--they both have the same litmus test:
Deuteronomy 6:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[PeteR]

Thank you so much for adding depth and insight to this thread, @rejoicinghandmaid . You make great points concerning deferrence and team-mindedness.

Zechariah 9:11ff is a great example of the two brides working together and both benefiting greatly. Bows and arrows need each other.

Take the prodigal son analogy. Who would be more appreciative about the father's mercy, the one who left or the one who stayed. Who would understand the law of the house in a higher sense? Wouldn't it be the one who knew the law but also knew the mercy extended to him?

While this may be true, does it matter if one understands better than the other? The key is, are both obedient to the husband and displaying fruit of the Spirit toward the sister wife?

Put another way, love is both physical and spiritual. It cannot be only one but not the other. Therefore, each bride should be doing something in addition to feeling the spiritual aspect. If they are wise, they will seek to do what the husband wants, what makes him feel loved.

Gary Smalls' The Five Live Languages lists the key 'acts of love' or languages as physical touch, words of affirmation, acts of service, quality time and gifts. Most people have one major and one minor 'language' that makes them feel loved. Often, the husband's language is different than the wife, so until each understands the other's need, the love is not communicated properly.

In context of this conversation, spiritual/physical, old/new, Judah/Israel,.... what does our Husband say He wants and then how best to give it? And, will that look radically different between wives, or only degrees of difference based on individuality?

Loving this discussion. Sparking lits of new thought. Thanks for engaging.