Is the ground still cursed?

[PeteR]

Except that there were men for Cain to be afraid of and women for him to marry. I think they were in the garden a long time.

What if Adam wasn't the only man created? Maybe the creation of the Garden in Genesis 2 happens after the first seven days and the purpose was for Adam to function as a priest.... It is possible that there were others on the planet as well, just like animals were likely created in more than simple pairs.

My major hangup with Adam and Eve as the only humans created, is that it demands that they break God's Instructions (Torah) to generate offspring through incestual marriage. I don't think God would start the system from a broken law.

I grew up believing they were the only, but Scripture never says that. We sort of come to that conclusion by assuming that Genesis 1 creation is the same as Genesis 2. And, maybe it is not.

 

[mystic]

We sort of come to that conclusion by assuming that Genesis 1 creation is the same as Genesis 2.

And by ignoring all non-literal meaning of the stories.

The writings never tell us to do that, either.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

@ Ancient Paths I grew up believing they were the only, but Scripture never says that.

Eve was the mother of all living
Sin and death passed to all men through Adam

if God had created more than the original pair then each branch would have been created righteous and sin would have had to enter through each branch separately.

 

[FollowingHim]

Precisely @Jim an Apostle . There are large theological implications when you stray from the plain reading that Adam and Eve were the first and parents of all.

@Ancient Paths, is it a problem to you that Abraham married his half sister or niece, also forbidden in Torah, yet was chosen as the father of God's chosen people?

If we see the ban on incest as being a new instruction made necessary due to the accumulation of genetic defects by the time of Moses, but not needed beforehand, then everything just falls into place again. To take speculative reasoning ("Adam might have known the whole Torah and been required to obey it"), in defiance of both standard Christian and Jewish theology (which places only the more limited Noahide laws pre-Moses), and use this speculation to reject the plain reading of scripture in Genesis, is very poor theological practice.

Remember too that Adam and Eve were very specifically given only one law - don't eat the fruit.

 

[Pacman]

Precisely @Jim an Apostle . There are large theological implications when you stray from the plain reading that Adam and Eve were the first and parents of all.

@Ancient Paths, is it a problem to you that Abraham married his half sister or niece, also forbidden in Torah, yet was chosen as the father of God's chosen people?

If we see the ban on incest as being a new instruction made necessary due to the accumulation of genetic defects by the time of Moses, but not needed beforehand, then everything just falls into place again. To take speculative reasoning ("Adam might have known the whole Torah and been required to obey it"), in defiance of both standard Christian and Jewish theology (which places only the more limited Noahide laws pre-Moses), and use this speculation to reject the plain reading of scripture in Genesis, is very poor theological practice.

Remember too that Adam and Eve were very specifically given only one law - don't eat the fruit.

I agree the law was in effect beginning when it was revealed.

 

[rockfox]

@Ancient Paths, is it a problem to you that Abraham married his half sister or niece, also forbidden in Torah, yet was chosen as the father of God's chosen people?

If we see the ban on incest as being a new instruction made necessary due to the accumulation of genetic defects by the time of Moses, but not needed beforehand, then everything just falls into place again. To take speculative reasoning ("Adam might have known the whole Torah and been required to obey it"), in defiance of both standard Christian and Jewish theology (which places only the more limited Noahide laws pre-Moses), and use this speculation to reject the plain reading of scripture in Genesis, is very poor theological practice.

Remember too that Adam and Eve were very specifically given only one law - don't eat the fruit.

Someone beat me to it. After editing out the redundancies I'm left with this to say... If God created just two, then clearly He didn't have a problem with those siblings mating (at that time).

It is not unreasonable to say things changed later; for God changed the punishment for murder after the flood.

 

[steve]

Eve was Adam’s twin sister.... kinda.

 

[rockfox]

Eve was Adam’s twin sister.... kinda.

Identical twin in a way. But more than that, it necessitated their children to intermarry.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Eve was Adam’s twin sister.... kinda.

She was like a non-identical clone! I love this faith.

 

[rustywest4]

No Sir @ZecAustin ... it happened quickly bro... I gots da proof ... check it:

I brought home a cool new thingy recently.
I gathered the kids into the living room and showed them dads new thing, and said, “This is dads new thing here. Touch it and die! You guys have plenty of your own things, don’t touch my new thing or it’s off with yer head!!!”
Guess how long it took for dads new thing to get broke? Yea... So I use to have 6 kids at home... down to 4 now... couldn’t prove which one did it , so they both got the wrath!

 

[FollowingHim]

Eve was Adam’s twin sister.... kinda.

No, she was a piece of Adam. So he was playing with himself.

 

[Rocky]

That’s a good question and probably deserves a more in depth response than I have time to address. There is much that we do not know about in antediluvian history, including the seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter and day and night. We all have a vague conception about some of this but thats all we have to my knowledge. We really don’t know exactly how the cursed ground affected the nuts and bolts of planting and harvest and summer and winter etc. There is a vast amount of conjecture, but not a lot of knowledge.

From Genesis 3 we know: Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread

It is not clear here whether or not Adam even tills the ground and plants or just harvests voluntary herbs from the field. It could be that if Adam plants anything, that it will bring forth thorns and thistles. It could be that if he plants anything, it will produce with thorns and thistles and so harvest will be extremely laborious.

Either way, we really don’t know what the curse was exactly or how it worked. We only know what we have now and very limited info from Biblical History about conditions and harvests. It doesnt seem logical that God would lift the curse for some areas and not for others unless He was doing it conditionally depending on obedience, just as He did for Adam. If this is His reasoning, then it would also make sense for Him to lift the curse for a family that was considered righteous by God and examples obedience and sacrifice as soon as they disembarked from the Ark.

I'm still fighting the weeds around here!!!

 

[Rocky]

An interesting historical context regarding easy to farm ground: In New Zealand, before European settlement, the Maori could grow crops extremely easily. The country was mostly forest, and there were few grasses or other such open-ground plants that compete with crops as "weeds". This meant that the Maori could clear some soil, plant their kumara (sweet potato), and it would grow easily. They didn't have to constantly weed it, but could just leave the crop from planting to harvest. They had a very easy lifestyle in many ways - I have read of men planting the crops, then walking hundreds of kilometres barefoot through the bush for several months to attend meetings with other tribes, wearing only a shirt and carrying no provisions, returning home in time for harvest. Or (sadly in other cases) planting the crop then going to war, and stopping fighting in time for harvest.

European settlers brought grasses for grazing animals, and other such plants, and the environment completely changed. Now the same crops are more difficult to grow as there are so many more weeds to control.

I see the ground in Eden as similar to the forest soils of early New Zealand - fertile, weed-free, and easy to crop. The curse was largely the introduction of weeds (illustrated by thorns and thistles, but possibly including others), that turned agriculture into back-breaking labour for Adam and his descendents. The curse could have been the spreading of such seed.

Maybe God is saying that He will not curse agriculture by spreading weeds deliberately? That would mean that man today will still generally be dealing with the residual effects of that curse (the existence of weeds), but in some cases may find or create a situation where they are eliminated and agriculture becomes easy again. Such as this.

I'm still fighting weeds around here, the natural way with cultivators and hoe's. Your right about forest land, In the south US it's called new land , it's sought after because of being weed free,but it only lasts so long then weeds are back. I am fascinated how the sages imbedded this in Genesis and how it's central to our story today. Many health problems spring from Roundup, and now 24d used for weed control. The biggest obstacle for Organic farming is not the insects but the weeds!

 

[Bartato]

I'm still fighting weeds around here, the natural way with cultivators and hoe's. Your right about forest land, In the south US it's called new land , it's sought after because of being weed free,but it only lasts so long then weeds are back. I am fascinated how the sages imbedded this in Genesis and how it's central to our story today. Many health problems spring from Roundup, and now 24d used for weed control. The biggest obstacle for Organic farming is not the insects but the weeds!

Weeds are the main problem in my garden, and I'm a pretty big mulch and cover crop guy.

Speaking of commonly used herbicides, Atrazine has issue too.

 

[Rocky]

Weeds are the main problem in my garden, and I'm a pretty big mulch and cover crop guy.

Speaking of commonly used herbicides, Atrazine has issue too.

Your right about Atrazine ,Wikipedia says it's a endocrine disruptor, and more, looking at it in depth appears to me it's a gender bender. I'm no Scientist, but a lot of these things mimic hormones,namley estrogen. By the way, estrogen doesn't help your Testosterone levels,wich are necessary for a man to have a good attitude, outlook, Libido and, vision, I think especially if a guy has more than one Wife to take care of he for sure should be eating organic! There a few other things we do that mimic estrogen,like drinking out of plastic bottles! All of this could be a topic of it's own!

 

[Bartato]

Your right about Atrazine ,Wikipedia says it's a endocrine disruptor, and more, looking at it in depth appears to me it's a gender bender. I'm no Scientist, but a lot of these things mimic hormones,namley estrogen. By the way, estrogen doesn't help your Testosterone levels,wich are necessary for a man to have a good attitude, outlook, Libido and, vision, I think especially if a guy has more than one Wife to take care of he for sure should be eating organic! There a few other things we do that mimic estrogen,like drinking out of plastic bottles! All of this could be a topic of it's own!

That's the issue I was referring to. Men's testosterone levels and sperm counts have been plummeting. This herbicide mimics estrogen (which lowers testosterone, in turn lowering sperm counts). Atrazine is used on millions of acres in the USA (and other countries). It is widely found in our groundwater.

Atrazine use is likely a significant contributing factor to the testosterone and sperm count issues we see.

Eating organic may not help since it is more of a groundwater issue than a residue one.

Also, this stuff has been known for a while. I learned about it studying Agronomy at University around fifteen years ago.

 

[FollowingHim]

I avoid herbicides, would keep them away from food crops, and I've been experimenting for years with low-labour natural ways of establishing trees. But I haven't found a good system for large numbers of trees, and I'm going back to herbicides just to keep the grass down for a couple of years while they're getting established. There is a time and place for everything. When establishing five trees, mulching is perfect. When establishing a hundred, herbicides are a useful tool.

 

[Keith Martin]

I avoid herbicides, would keep them away from food crops, and I've been experimenting for years with low-labour natural ways of establishing trees. But I haven't found a good system for large numbers of trees, and I'm going back to herbicides just to keep the grass down for a couple of years while they're getting established. There is a time and place for everything. When establishing five trees, mulching is perfect. When establishing a hundred, herbicides are a useful tool.

One of those examples of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, Samuel. Thanks!

 

[The Revolting Man]

I avoid herbicides, would keep them away from food crops, and I've been experimenting for years with low-labour natural ways of establishing trees. But I haven't found a good system for large numbers of trees, and I'm going back to herbicides just to keep the grass down for a couple of years while they're getting established. There is a time and place for everything. When establishing five trees, mulching is perfect. When establishing a hundred, herbicides are a useful tool.

All things in moderation and moderation in all things. Limited, targeted amounts of chemicals can be very useful. We don’t use them but our places is so small we don’t have too. Occasionally I’m tempted though. Those Japanese beetles make me willing to drop another a-bomb.

 

[Keith Martin]

All things in moderation and moderation in all things. Limited, targeted amounts of chemicals can be very useful. We don’t use them but our places is so small we don’t have too. Occasionally I’m tempted though. Those Japanese beetles make me willing to drop another a-bomb.

I'm going to text you a little video of the kind of stink bug I was telling you about that wipes out Japanese beetles.