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Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

Leviticus 22:24 NASB
[24] Also anything with its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut, you shall not offer to the LORD, or sacrifice in your land,

Not sure what you are referencing? Nor do I understand how this impacts the instructions given to us... please explain.
The reference is about Yeshua not meeting those requirements. The reason many Atheist & Jews use to say that Yeshua is not the Messiah.

Taken out of Context

21 Whoever brings a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to Adonai to fulfill a vow or for a freewill offering, either from the herd or the flock, it must be unblemished to be accepted—there must be no defect on it. 22 The blind, injured, maimed, having an abnormal growth or festering or a running sore are not to be offered to Adonai, or given as an offering by fire on the altar to Adonai. 23 For a freewill offering you may present a bull or a lamb that has any deformity or lacking in its parts, but for a vow it will not be accepted. 24 Whatever has its testicles bruised, crushed, broken or cut, you are not to offer to Adonai, nor are you to do so in your own land.

Yeshua was not a fellowship offering by vow or free will gift in the sense of sin. Neither atoned for sin.

That's the type of out of context scriptures used to make people doubt Yeshua was the Messiah. To stumble. Im not saying that's the intention here. I'm gonna chalk up the confusion to not understanding the context of how it is being presented here..
 
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19 Then why the Torah? It was added because of wrongdoings until the Seed would come—to whom the promise had been made

24 Therefore the Torah became our guardian to lead us to Messiah, so that we might be made right based on trusting. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
 
19 Then why the Torah? It was added because of wrongdoings until the Seed would come—to whom the promise had been made

24 Therefore the Torah became our guardian to lead us to Messiah, so that we might be made right based on trusting. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Right we are no longer under the curse of the law. Context is king. The Messiah took our curse.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 NASB
"See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: [27] the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today; [28] and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, by following other gods which you have not known.

The curse comes because of our disobedience to the commands
Does that mean that we should continue in disobedience because the penalty has been paid?

Romans 6:1-2 NASB
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
 
Thank you for your input @Kevin. I haven't studied it to the length many of you have, but it seems to me that Torah (law, not the narratives) was codifying and distilling what was already largely followed orally and traditionally by the God fearers and descendants of Noah.

Judah was expected to hand off his living sons to his daughter in law. He forgot to send his youngest her way and she tricked him into impregnating her. She new levirate marriage obliged him to help provide her a child before Torah law....just one example.
 
I hear what you are saying... in my case, I'm the first in my family to keep Shabbat afaik. Maybe since forever...
As to commands from parents, can we honor them without their commands being binding? Mine were not happy when the golden boy who went to seminary left a very conservative pulpit to keep 'that old Jewish law.' I live them and honor them, but their commands are not binding.
In the same vein, lighting candles, saying Brachot, etc are good traditions that help delineate a set apart period of time, but they can never be given the weight of 'command' else we are adding to the very simple observance Abba did command.
We have a few traditions, but I alter them from time to time just to make the pint that the tradition is not law... thoughts?
So bear with me as I investigate the perspective a bit more...
If someone has parents who say, "you should always light the sabbath candles before dark on Friday. This is a parental command from me to you son in one of the ways to make Sabbath holy. I also command you to sing this set of psalms in Hebrew every Friday night as our family has done for generations."

Assuming none of these parental edicts violate one of G-d's laws, do you see a way to escape from them?
My Rabbi years ago taught me that honoring one's parents means "keeping the Torah to not bring shame on them for violating it". His understanding included, of course, keeping their parental commands which did not violate Torah.

The Rechavites did not drink wine because their fathers had forbidden it and they are seen in a very positive light in scripture for honoring their fathers in this manner.
 
The reference is about Yeshua not meeting those requirements. The reason many Atheist & Jews use to say that Yeshua is not the Messiah.

Taken out of Context

21 Whoever brings a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to Adonai to fulfill a vow or for a freewill offering, either from the herd or the flock, it must be unblemished to be accepted—there must be no defect on it. 22 The blind, injured, maimed, having an abnormal growth or festering or a running sore are not to be offered to Adonai, or given as an offering by fire on the altar to Adonai. 23 For a freewill offering you may present a bull or a lamb that has any deformity or lacking in its parts, but for a vow it will not be accepted. 24 Whatever has its testicles bruised, crushed, broken or cut, you are not to offer to Adonai, nor are you to do so in your own land.

Yeshua was not a fellowship offering by vow or free will gift in the sense of sin. Neither atoned for sin.

That's the type of out of context scriptures used to make people doubt Yeshua was the Messiah. To stumble. Im not saying that's the intention here. I'm gonna chalk up the confusion to not understanding the context of how it is being presented here..

So this is actually pretty interesting. I’d never seen it associated with testicles before and after a decent amount of study am still unsure how they make the connection with testicles alone. I can see how that would apply if it were done to the testicles, and that those methods could be used to emasculate, but the word used to translate for bruised testicles has nothing to do with testicles in any other passage I could find or cross reference. Instead it seemed to be something related to being pierced or something like that.

About half of the versions I looked up on Bible Hub had it listed as the King James does. The other half has testicles inserted but the word testicles seems to be missing from the Hebrew so it should be in italics if at all.

I did find reference to it in Chabad and a couple of other Jewish references but they were dependent on the Targum of Johnathan or something like that for the inference to testicles.

In any case, IMO the jury is out on this passage as either being exclusively referring to castration/emasculation or just a general mention of bruising, crushing, broken or cut. Open to proof that its actually referring to testicles exclusively . . .

The issue of whether or not its a free will sacrifice or a sacrifice for a vow is IMO irrelevant. The relevant issue is that its a sacrifice. Granted neither of them is specifically a Passover sacrifice.

One passage I did find was in Malachi 1:13 which lists something offered as sacrifice being torn as a bad thing.

Somehow I cant see a Passover Lamb being acceptable after its been beaten and scourged to the point that all his bones do look at him. That seems like something the priests would kinda turn their noses up at. This does not mean that I believe this makes The Passover Lamb disqualified at all.
 
It is a shot and I can't understand why others can't see the division in it. What makes you think that the hyper demanding Christians don't have negative feelings about you.

Now Christians are laughable to a Jew and that will probably be OK here.
OK I said I wouldn't engage with you but this is important.
You have clearly misunderstood my intent. I thought you'd been here on Bib. Fam. long enough to understand where I'm coming from.
Let me clarify, that I believe myself to also be among those who are laughable at keeping G-d's Laws as if they were written in my heart.
I wasn't trying to insult your identity as a "Christian" Cap; I was making the point that clearly people who have accepted the Messiah as their savior often do not act as if His Law is written in their hearts.
Hope that clarifies things; sorry if I offended you with that.
 
I just want to point out that there is fallacy to think that Instruction given at Sinai didn't exists before Moses and trying to use covenants as a way to void His instructions when it can be proven in scripture many of them (more than just the First 10 Torah Instructions) have been there since Adam...

Hey Kev, I like a lot of what you wrote; I just want to explore this part I marked in bold a bit more.
So, Abraham married his sister. Many of the B'nei Yisraeyl who came out of Egypt where married to their aunties.
There's a whole slew of other commands which were not given to mankind pre-Moses.

Would you say that the Jewish understanding pre-Yeshua of Noachides was wrong? (i.e. Elisha sending Naaman away allowing him to bow when his king bows, etc. He certainly didn't seem concerned if Naaman would return for the feasts or not.)

I'm not pushing Noachide covenant understanding post-Yeshua here. I am curious though about pre-Yeshua what your (and others) takes are on it.

***I know you know this part Kev it's for others to follow along****
For those unclear, in the first century there were 2 kinds of converts in Judaism: 1) geyr (a full convert to Judaism like Luke likely was) and 2) geyr toshav (a convert away from paganism / idolatry to the 7 laws given to Noah which Jews understood all Gentiles to be part of [that covenant]). There are glimpses of this in scripture as they are referred to variously as "G-d fearers", righteous Gentiles, etc.
The ancient Jewish understanding was that the righteous Gentile who kept the laws of his covenant (Noah), would also have a place in the world to come without actually becoming a Jew (Mosaic covenant).

So was this old system of understanding pre-Yeshua Fallacious?
 
So bear with me as I investigate the perspective a bit more...
If someone has parents who say, "you should always light the sabbath candles before dark on Friday. This is a parental command from me to you son in one of the ways to make Sabbath holy. I also command you to sing this set of psalms in Hebrew every Friday night as our family has done for generations."

Assuming none of these parental edicts violate one of G-d's laws, do you see a way to escape from them?
My Rabbi years ago taught me that honoring one's parents means "keeping the Torah to not bring shame on them for violating it". His understanding included, of course, keeping their parental commands which did not violate Torah.

The Rechavites did not drink wine because their fathers had forbidden it and they are seen in a very positive light in scripture for honoring their fathers in this manner.
I do see the value... up to a point.

Suppose each generation adds new 'commands' for each successive generation. At what point does it become too burdensome?

Other question, What if they say, 'If you don't do it this way, the curse is _____.'?

Those are the two major issues I have. Honestly, I do not believe my parents can add commands that care anywhere near the same weight as the original commands.

Put still another way: My parents 'commanded' Christmas and Easter, celebrations that I now see the pagan roots of. I have disobeyed my parents in favor of Scripturally commanded Feasts of the Lord. I believe I have chosen the weightier matter. Make sense?
 
Somehow I cant see a Passover Lamb being acceptable after its been beaten and scourged to the point that all his bones do look at him. That seems like something the priests would kinda turn their noses up at. This does not mean that I believe this makes The Passover Lamb disqualified at all.
The The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats.

In looking up defect and blemish you'll see its about it's natural physical traits.
תָּמִים tamim-complete, fully intacted, entire, without defect, unblemished, perfect.

What a Preist who is a man would do and what God would do is not always the same. The heart of man who truley loves God my say one thing while scripture says another. We've all recognized that IN ourselves at one time. That's why were all here to seek the truth of His instructions.

I'm not pushing Noachide covenant understanding post-Yeshua here. I am curious though about pre-Yeshua what your (and others) takes are on it.
Trigger word alert. Somewhere, Someone is fuming that you suggested that a beleiver is supose to follow a created Jewish law system based off scripture but not named in scripture that they ironically follow with out realising it, without being given it, which has basically made them a law unto themself.

Before we get into Noahide. I would like to point out there are Sins against His Nature (sin that over time have never changed, anyone who did or does it is condemned for it) and Sins of Disobedience (a sin when instruction is not followed by one and when another does not follow it its not a sin, because it's only given to specific person or people)

Sin against nature: Example Murder

Sin of Disobedience: We're told to obey all His instructions. As a man it is unnessary for me to carry out instructions for women to do after menstruating or childbirth. For me to not do them is not and act of disobedience. Another example, Noah was not of Israel and not told to wear tzitzit, Those who are of Israel are instructed to. Since Noah is not of Israel He wasn't in disobedience to God for not wearing a Tzitzit.

Numbers 15:37-40

37 Adonai spoke to Moses saying, 38 “Speak to Bnei-Yisrael. Say to them that they are to make for themselves tzitzit on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and they are to put a blue cord on each tzitzit. 39 It will be your own tzitzit—so whenever you look at them, you will remember all the mitzvot of Adonai and do them and not go spying out after your own hearts and your own eyes, prostituting yourselves. 40 This way you will remember and obey all My mitzvot and you will be holy to your God.

The sin is not in the not wearing the tzittzit but in the act of disobedience. Where as the sin in murder is the act of murder.

Refresher of what Noah Laws are.

  1. Not to commit idolatry.
  2. Not to blaspheme Elohim.
  3. Establish a justice system.
  4. Not to commit murder.
  5. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
  6. Not to steal.
  7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Iyov (Job) is the perfect example of a God Fearing Gentile. Not being of Abrahams lineage and believed to be a contemporary of Abraham because of some of the references to the flood in the book of Job. He was and is considered by many Jews The Prophet to the Gentile. That being said it does bring into question the minimum requirements of Noahide law. He also did many things not required in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. I love this man because he didn't have the spirit of what is the least I can do to fulfill a minimum requirement but a spirit that screamed I'm going to give of myself completely and more than you require because you are worthy of all things.

I don't see Noahide Law as simple as stated in the Talmud but I can't deny the seven listed are the extent of what the majority of believers actually follow despite professing to obey the 10 commandments. For example #5 is a category a large list of sexual immorality. I also see other distinctions and instructions given before Sinai that would have to apply to all. Be fruit full and multiply for one. Number #7 touches on the instructions concerning food. I see the distinction in clean animals and the fact that despite being given all green plants to get not every green plant is ment for consumption as instruction from the time of Noah but the kashrut instruction to not eat the meat of a kid boiled in milk of its mother didn't appear in scripture until Sinai. I still don't do that because there's the instruction not to in scripture but it wasn't there since the time of Noah.
 
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Would you say that the Jewish understanding pre-Yeshua of Noachides was wrong? (i.e. Elisha sending Naaman away allowing him to bow when his king bows, etc. He certainly didn't seem concerned if Naaman would return for the feasts or not.)
For those, like myself, who need a refresher on details about Naaman. So many good teaches there it is easy to rabbit trail.

2 Kings 5

1 Now Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man in his master’s sight and highly esteemed, because through him Adonai had given victory to Aram. Though the man was a mighty man of valor, he had tza’arat. (leprosy)

2 Aram had gone out in bands, and had taken captive a young girl from the land of Israel. So she served Naaman’s wife. 3 Then she said to her mistress, “If only my lord went before the prophet who is in Samaria! Then he would cure him of his tza’arat.”

4 So Naaman went in and told his master, saying, “Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel.” 5 The king of Aram said, “Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So he departed and took with him ten talents of silver, 6,000 pieces of gold, and ten changes of clothes.

6 He brought the letter to the king of Israel saying, “When this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent my servant Naaman to you, so you may cure him of his tza’arat.”

7 Now when the king of Israel read the letter, he ripped his clothes and said, “Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending to me to cure a man of his tza’arat? But please consider, and see how he is seeking a pretext against me.”

8 Now when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, he sent word to the king saying, “Why have you rent your clothes? Please, let him come to me, and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”

9 So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots, and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. 10 So Elisha sent him a messenger, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be clean.”

11 But Naaman was angered and walked away, saying, “I thought he would surely come out to me, stand and call on the Name of Adonai his God, and wave his hand over the spot and cure the tza’arat. 12 Aren’t Amanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 But his servants approached him and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do something difficult, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he told you only to ‘Wash and be clean’?” 14 So, he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God. Then his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 When he returned with his entire retinue to the man of God, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth except in Israel. Now please, accept a present from your servant.”

16 But Elisha said, “As Adonai before whom I stand lives, I will accept nothing.” Naaman pressed him to accept, but Elisha refused.

17 So Naaman said, “If not, then please, let your servant be given two mule loads of soil, for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any other god, except Adonai. 18 In this matter, may Adonai pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my hand, and I prostrate myself in the house of Rimmon—when I prostrate myself in the house of Rimmon, may Adonai pardon your servant in this matter.”

19 Elisha said to him, “Go in peace.” So Naaman departed from him some distance.

20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, thought, “Behold, my master held back from accepting what this Naaman the Aramean brought. As Adonai lives, I will surely run after him and get something from him.”

21 So Gehazi pursued Naaman. Now when Naaman saw someone running after him, he got down from the chariot to meet him and asked, “Is everything all right?”

22 “It’s all right, he replied. “My master sent me saying: ‘Behold, two young men of the sons of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent of silver and two changes of clothes.’”

23 Naaman said, “Please, take two talents.” He even urged him, and packed two talents of silver in two bags with two changes of clothes, and gave them to two of his servants; and they carried them ahead of him. 24 Now when he arrived at the fortified hill, he took them from their hand and deposited them in the house, and let the men go, so they departed.

25 When he entered and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”

So he replied, “Your servant has gone nowhere.”

26 Then Elisha said to him, “Didn’t my heart go, when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is it a time to accept money and accept clothes, or olive groves and vineyards, or sheep and oxen, or male and female servants? 27 Therefore, the tza’arat of Naaman will cling to you and to your offspring forever.” Then he went out from his presence with tza’arat as white as snow.

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So Elisha does not condemn him for these things but he doesn't say Adonai pardons him or gives permission. He says "Go in peace." Some say this does give the permission which Naaman craves. Insert cultural context. It is a geographical and era common cultural form of leave-taking. Sometimes in Scripture, "Go in Peace" means something more than "Farewell," . I don't see the context of Hassem saying its ok to worship and bow in the temple of the Syrian deity Rimmon here. If so then the martyrs who died for refusing to bow before self proclaimed god emperors of Rome were foolish and prideful.

I'm taking the path of less resistance here that doesn't permit Idolatry.
 
OK I said I wouldn't engage with you but this is important.
You have clearly misunderstood my intent. I thought you'd been here on Bib. Fam. long enough to understand where I'm coming from.
Let me clarify, that I believe myself to also be among those who are laughable at keeping G-d's Laws as if they were written in my heart.
I wasn't trying to insult your identity as a "Christian" Cap; I was making the point that clearly people who have accepted the Messiah as their savior often do not act as if His Law is written in their hearts.
Hope that clarifies things; sorry if I offended you with that.

Clearly being on BF does not reveal the true personality of anyone who participates. And clearly, you and others misunderstand my intent. I appreciate your efforts to clear it up for both of us.

The writing on ones heart, to me, is a process, day by day. I guess it could magically appear one day, but my idea is that as we go through life many things are written on our hearts, some in pencil, some with ink, and some are engraved. The engraved ones matter in the end and as long as I have a pliable heart that is lead by the Holy Spirit, then it is God's responsibility to write whatever he wants in due time. The sum value of a child is not fully understood until a life has been lived to the end. The same would go for a believer, especially after being born again.
 
I don't see Noahide Law as simple as stated in the Talmud but I can't deny the seven listed are the extent of what the majority of believers actually follow despite professing to obey the 10 commandments. For example #5 is a category a large list of sexual immorality. I also see other distinctions and instructions given before Sinai that would have to apply to all. Be fruit full and multiply for one. Number #7 touches on the instructions concerning food. I see the distinction in clean animals and the fact that despite being given all green plants to get not every green plant is ment for consumption as instruction from the time of Noah but the kashrut instruction to not eat the meat of a kid boiled in milk of its mother didn't appear in scripture until Sinai. I still don't do that because there's the instruction not to in scripture but it wasn't there since the time of Noah.

So technically, the laws according to what is stated in the Noahide understanding has already been written on our hearts. At first I I didn't want to be held down by this so called regulation established by the Jewish belief, but actually as I think about I think I can accept it. I am free to live my life before my God, because He has already written His Law into my heart. So you guys follow whatever regulations you need, I'm good. I'll live by the Noahide laws written on my heart (and the Holy Spirit, of course).
 
Hey Kev, I like a lot of what you wrote; I just want to explore this part I marked in bold a bit more.
So, Abraham married his sister. Many of the B'nei Yisraeyl who came out of Egypt where married to their aunties.
There's a whole slew of other commands which were not given to mankind pre-Moses.

Would you say that the Jewish understanding pre-Yeshua of Noachides was wrong? (i.e. Elisha sending Naaman away allowing him to bow when his king bows, etc. He certainly didn't seem concerned if Naaman would return for the feasts or not.)

I'm not pushing Noachide covenant understanding post-Yeshua here. I am curious though about pre-Yeshua what your (and others) takes are on it.

***I know you know this part Kev it's for others to follow along****
For those unclear, in the first century there were 2 kinds of converts in Judaism: 1) geyr (a full convert to Judaism like Luke likely was) and 2) geyr toshav (a convert away from paganism / idolatry to the 7 laws given to Noah which Jews understood all Gentiles to be part of [that covenant]). There are glimpses of this in scripture as they are referred to variously as "G-d fearers", righteous Gentiles, etc.
The ancient Jewish understanding was that the righteous Gentile who kept the laws of his covenant (Noah), would also have a place in the world to come without actually becoming a Jew (Mosaic covenant).

So was this old system of understanding pre-Yeshua Fallacious?
@IshChayil, it's not just @Kevin who is aware of the two laws/covenants of Noah and Moses. I'm fully aware of them, just not as well versed as you, or perhaps any other messianic believer. The NT even lists some "basic" tenants for the gentile believer in Yeshua, but who does not convert to judaism (no blood, no sexual immorality...etc.).

Job has been mentioned, and perhaps Melchizedec should be mentioned. There have been righteous men outside of the Abrahamic covenant and Mosaic covenant, and they are listed in scripture. Whether these men received direct revelation from God or were merely practicing what had been handed down to them since Adam (the concept of a sacrifice/offering to God is seen from the beginning) is not very clear to me. If someone has insight, I'd love to hear it.

Paul states that no man is truly ignorant of God, unless he is willfully that way. Nature and creation screams God!

I may be lost in this ever growing thread, but I see progressive revelation throughout scripture that progressively codifies and distills details of Gods message through Gods covenants with all of mankind (Adam, Noah) then to a chosen people responsible to proclaim his message (who were expected to be different and needed laws/instructions on how to be peculiar) and then back to all of mankind via the followers of his Son (who have an even more refined and distilled revelation). All of it expresses an overarching theme: God is Holy. Men are fallen. There is a divide. Sacrifice is required. Blood sacrifice is required. The perfect blood sacrifice is the only sufficient one. And all along, sincere faith and devotion are the true indications of a true believer, not perfect adherence to the codes.

In summary, I do see more than one covenant in scripture, but they don't necessarily contradict. Each is a necessary stepping stones across a river (go ahead and bust out all the spirituals about crossing Jordan) that separates a fallen mankind and a holy creator.

Feel free to shoot down my oversimplification and point out details I missed. I have thick skin :cool:
 
If you can make this claim work I think we should expand the effort and get this "original sin" thing done away with. We never even saw that garden!

Difference in kind. The fall applied to all creation. But covenants can be in parallel and be between any two parties or persons and they do not bind anyone not party to that covenant/contract. I'm party to a different covenant now.

In the days before the invention of the Lucifer match, rekindling a fire was real work. I have never read what methods they used, but it generally involved a lot of friction.
However, if you “banked” your fire, buried the coals in ashes, the fire rekindled itself just by brushing off the ashes and piling wood on top of them. Nobody went cold or hungry unless they failed to prepare. (Like failure to gather extra manna on the day prior to Shabbat)

Anyone who has used an outdoor fire to cook food for a large number of people in primitive conditions will appreciate the large amount of work that goes into it. Most of the time they'll bank the fire or have a coal set aside in a tinder box. But starting the burn is only a fraction of the work to come.

I was making the point that clearly people who have accepted the Messiah as their savior often do not act as if His Law is written in their hearts.

I would quibble with you about most such examples having actually 'accepted the Messiah'. So many false gospels. And besides, just because it is written on peoples hearts does not mean they act it out properly.
 
So technically, the laws according to what is stated in the Noahide understanding has already been written on our hearts. At first I I didn't want to be held down by this so called regulation established by the Jewish belief, but actually as I think about I think I can accept it. I am free to live my life before my God, because He has already written His Law into my heart. So you guys follow whatever regulations you need, I'm good. I'll live by the Noahide laws written on my heart (and the Holy Spirit, of course).
Cool, if that's your take away from it go with it. I feel it necessary to be clear its not what I'm saying, but in the end that doesn't really matter. As I stated someone's submission to Him and relationship with Him has no bearing on my submission to Him and relationship with Him and vice versa. You submit to whatever instructions you feel you need to, its your relationship. Not that I'm saying you would do this but, I don't want well "Kevin said...…" laid at my feet when its not what I said. I just want to be clear for everyone that I am not saying the Noahide Laws are the standard for Christian faith just what I see in scripture as the minimum of what has been followed from the beginning of at least Noah's covenant and even then not exactly as the Talmud describes it. Also its pretty much the extent of submission to God that many Christians are willing to do.
 
For those, like myself, who need a refresher on details about Naaman. So many good teaches there it is easy to rabbit trail.

2 Kings 5

1 Now Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man in his master’s sight and highly esteemed, because through him Adonai had given victory to Aram. Though the man was a mighty man of valor, he had tza’arat. (leprosy)

2 Aram had gone out in bands, and had taken captive a young girl from the land of Israel. So she served Naaman’s wife. 3 Then she said to her mistress, “If only my lord went before the prophet who is in Samaria! Then he would cure him of his tza’arat.”

4 So Naaman went in and told his master, saying, “Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel.” 5 The king of Aram said, “Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So he departed and took with him ten talents of silver, 6,000 pieces of gold, and ten changes of clothes.

6 He brought the letter to the king of Israel saying, “When this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent my servant Naaman to you, so you may cure him of his tza’arat.”

7 Now when the king of Israel read the letter, he ripped his clothes and said, “Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending to me to cure a man of his tza’arat? But please consider, and see how he is seeking a pretext against me.”

8 Now when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, he sent word to the king saying, “Why have you rent your clothes? Please, let him come to me, and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”

9 So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots, and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. 10 So Elisha sent him a messenger, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be clean.”

11 But Naaman was angered and walked away, saying, “I thought he would surely come out to me, stand and call on the Name of Adonai his God, and wave his hand over the spot and cure the tza’arat. 12 Aren’t Amanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 But his servants approached him and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do something difficult, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he told you only to ‘Wash and be clean’?” 14 So, he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God. Then his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 When he returned with his entire retinue to the man of God, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth except in Israel. Now please, accept a present from your servant.”

16 But Elisha said, “As Adonai before whom I stand lives, I will accept nothing.” Naaman pressed him to accept, but Elisha refused.

17 So Naaman said, “If not, then please, let your servant be given two mule loads of soil, for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any other god, except Adonai. 18 In this matter, may Adonai pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my hand, and I prostrate myself in the house of Rimmon—when I prostrate myself in the house of Rimmon, may Adonai pardon your servant in this matter.”

19 Elisha said to him, “Go in peace.” So Naaman departed from him some distance.

20 But Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, thought, “Behold, my master held back from accepting what this Naaman the Aramean brought. As Adonai lives, I will surely run after him and get something from him.”

21 So Gehazi pursued Naaman. Now when Naaman saw someone running after him, he got down from the chariot to meet him and asked, “Is everything all right?”

22 “It’s all right, he replied. “My master sent me saying: ‘Behold, two young men of the sons of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent of silver and two changes of clothes.’”

23 Naaman said, “Please, take two talents.” He even urged him, and packed two talents of silver in two bags with two changes of clothes, and gave them to two of his servants; and they carried them ahead of him. 24 Now when he arrived at the fortified hill, he took them from their hand and deposited them in the house, and let the men go, so they departed.

25 When he entered and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”

So he replied, “Your servant has gone nowhere.”

26 Then Elisha said to him, “Didn’t my heart go, when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is it a time to accept money and accept clothes, or olive groves and vineyards, or sheep and oxen, or male and female servants? 27 Therefore, the tza’arat of Naaman will cling to you and to your offspring forever.” Then he went out from his presence with tza’arat as white as snow.

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So Elisha does not condemn him for these things but he doesn't say Adonai pardons him or gives permission. He says "Go in peace." Some say this does give the permission which Naaman craves. Insert cultural context. It is a geographical and era common cultural form of leave-taking. Sometimes in Scripture, "Go in Peace" means something more than "Farewell," . I don't see the context of Hassem saying its ok to worship and bow in the temple of the Syrian deity Rimmon here. If so then the martyrs who died for refusing to bow before self proclaimed god emperors of Rome were foolish and prideful.

I'm taking the path of less resistance here that doesn't permit Idolatry.
The lawyers have a saying that says, "Hard cases make bad law." I wouldn't rest any theological conclusion on idolatry even largely on this story. There are just too many moving parts and what ifs. Naaman was a brand new baby believer on top of that. And idolatry wasn't the point of the story.
 
Anyone who has used an outdoor fire to cook food for a large number of people in primitive conditions will appreciate the large amount of work that goes into it. Most of the time they'll bank the fire or have a coal set aside in a tinder box. But starting the burn is only a fraction of the work to come.
I am not sure what your point is.
The prohibition was kindling a fire, not having and feeding a fire.
 
Cool, if that's your take away from it go with it. I feel it necessary to be clear its not what I'm saying, but in the end that doesn't really matter. As I stated someone's submission to Him and relationship with Him has no bearing on my submission to Him and relationship with Him and vice versa. You submit to whatever instructions you feel you need to, its your relationship. Not that I'm saying you would do this but, I don't want well "Kevin said...…" laid at my feet when its not what I said. I just want to be clear for everyone that I am not saying the Noahide Laws are the standard for Christian faith just what I see in scripture as the minimum of what has been followed from the beginning of at least Noah's covenant and even then not exactly as the Talmud describes it. Also its pretty much the extent of submission to God that many Christians are willing to do.

I agree with everything you said except the last sentence. In no way am I suggesting the path I believe is available to new covenant believers is an easy one. I sincerely believe living a daily life by faith is much harder then following a written set of rules that no one has been able to follow yet.
 
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