Is the USA Babylon the Great? Should Christians leave?

[FollowingHim]

AmericanIsraelite, I agree money is one of the central issues here. Follow what has happened to money in the last century and many things become clearer. The international position of the US dollar, combined with its fragility, are a recipe for a major and inevitable global shakeup, with the largest impact in the USA, very soon. Whether this will be related to the end times, or how, is impossible to say for sure. But something big is about to blow, regardless.

 

[UntoldGlory]

I think Slumber hit the nail on the head, to me, there is no clear "Godly" nation. And further, we have Biblical examples of Godly nations becoming depraved and unGodly basically overnight, and visa versa. Most Western countries would consider America's acceptance of gay people as "slow in coming", so if anything open acceptance at this point can hardly be touted as evidence of America leading the charge into debauchery and darkness.

I am loathe to prescribe too much importance to America either. Rome fell and the world kept turning, Russia fell and the world kept turning. If America collapses under it's crushing debt then life would likely suck for us Americans, and it would certainly impact others, but in the grand scheme of things I think it would be pretty temporary on a global scale. *Could* it be related to end times? Yes, but we don't know. I tend to feel that most prophecy is less about predicting the future, and more about verifying what has transpired. The Apostles were able to point to the prophecies and show how he fulfilled them. They didn't go looking for a fancy tomb to bury him in specifically to fulfill that prophecy.

I figure I can do one of two things. Assume that my country is going down the toilet, give up, and try to move somewhere more Godly (which again, don't really see a lot of options there), or I can prepare some for the worst but seek to create positive change in my country and work towards getting it back on track. I am inclined to the latter. Especially because I think once you start running it's really hard to stop.

 

[FollowingHim]

I too have always been very reluctant to ascribe too much importance to the USA. I have generally taken any interpretation of the Bible to include the USA in prophecy as simply the work of an arrogant American thinking their country is more important than it is. However, Revelation 18:7 got me to rethink this:

As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.’

So Babylon is actually an arrogant nation, that thinks it is better than anyone else ("a queen") and will never be defeated. The most arrogant nation in the entire world at present would have to be the USA...

I agree there is no "Godly" nation to flee to as an alternative. But there are nations that may not be subject to as much judgement. The USA was given a great, Godly start, and a wonderful chance to do enormous good in the world. And it has done a lot of good. But it has still fallen. And the higher you climb, the harder the impact when you fall.

...Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Well I don't think that America is the most arrogant nation, at least not these days. I'd generally ascribe that to North Korea, possibly even China. Don't get me wrong, we've got some arrogance going, but most countries do. Our politicians actually spend a lot of time bowing and scraping to countries significantly less powerful than us, and changing our policy to not hurt other countries feelings. I actually think we could do with a bit more backbone on foreign policy, but backbone standing for the right things, not the things our politicians generally find important.

 

[FollowingHim]

I better clarify my use of the word "arrogant" then!

No other country in the world thinks they have a right to have their military operating in 81 countries around the world. Sure, plenty of other countries will carry out covert operations. But not all over the world, all at once.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ron-paul-wh ... tries.html

No other country has led as many wars against other countries in recent decades as the USA. Direct wars (including where allied with NATO) include Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, now Iraq+Syria (ISIS). Opposition groups have been armed to incite further conflict in Syria. More limited operations have been regular in many other countries.
While North Korea and China have not gone to war with anyone. Sure they might talk belligerently, they may be a threat to their neighbours - but actions speak louder than words. Russia has had some military activity, but only in countries directly bordering their territory, and more limited than US actions.

Now I know full well that there have been reasons for these military actions. I don't want to get into an argument about any individual war, that is not my point. Some may certainly have been initiated for just reasons.

My point is simply that whatever the problems internationally, what one country has felt they had the right to step in and use their military to solve the problems they perceived? The USA. Time and time again, the USA has decided to act as the world's policeman. It has been constantly at war for many years now, unlike any other major nation on earth, and all in countries well away from its borders. I am not calling the individual actions wrong, that's not my point. I am calling the belief that the USA has the authority to initiate them "arrogance".

And on an individual level, no group of people talk more about their own country than Americans - check Facebook... When I travel around the world, no people talk more about their military than Americans - even airport announcements keep saying how wonderful the military is, you don't see this anywhere else in the world. No other nationality flies their countries flag wherever they go in the world more than Americans, you can recognise the Americans in any country by the flagpole on their lawn. My point here is simply that people from the USA appear to hold up their country as important far more than people from any other country do about theirs, in my experience. This too comes across as "arrogance", but is not a fault of individuals, rather a reflection of the attitudes held by their society and drilled into them through their schooling system. It is a cultural "arrogance".

And this is why so much of the world hates the USA. Because of a perception of arrogance. This is why the most important local phrase New Zealand troops are taught to memorise when acting overseas is "I am a New Zealander, not an American" - which apparently gets them out of all sorts of trouble.

I fully appreciate that within the USA what I am saying here may seem completely unfair. The USA seems great from inside.
But I can assure you that from outside the USA, many many people would agree with my description of the USA as "arrogant".

This isn't an anti-USA rant, I love you guys. I am very aware that were it not for your military I'd probably be speaking Japanese right now.
Rather, it's an explanation of why this prophecy rings so true to me from where I am looking from. I better shut up now. Ylop, back me up please, without getting them more angry with us...

 

[ylop]

I was taking active steps to move to the USA around 2008.

I like the founding principles of that nation. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

But my, how the mighty have fallen. And so quickly.

I can see from this thread, that it can be hard to see from the inside, how outsiders perceive you.

But looking from the outside, I can say that the USA is a great stench on the world stage. It is hated and despised by many.

And it is not because of the freedoms (which are rapidly diminishing anyway).

It is because of the foreign policy.

It is because of the aggression - which now that I have studied it in more detail, has been continuous since founding, and includes the internal conquests of the Indians, the attempted invasion of Canada, the conquest of Mexico, etc, then attacking Spain, there is an endless list.

It is because of the spying.

And the military bases.

The assassinations.

The drone killings.

The renditions.

The deals with dictators.

The religious support for the military.

And the support for Israel - which is a modern political entity and NOT the historical chosen people. BTW many of the Palestinians being persecuted by Israel are Christian.

Again, I like the theoretical principles behind the USA. But they are being stripped away almost daily.

When I travel overseas, it is quite easy to notice people from the USA. Loud, assertive, aggressive, assumptive, making little effort to blend in - of course a vast generalisation and there would be many exceptions, but the behaviour seems to be a reflection of attitudes.

Well, I have probably alienated most people on the forum now.

Oh well, this is just my experience.

Back to the original topic - is the USA Babylon the Great? I don't think so. But the USA is destined for a great fall. Maybe in 1-2 years. Maybe in 10-20. The future is not yet written.

Should Christians leave?

I can completely understand if someone wanted to leave. But where to? There is no clear beacon of freedom to go to. If there is, please let me know!

 

[UntoldGlory]

Oh yeah? MURRRRRICCCAAAAA!!! *BLAM BLAM BLAM*

I kid. Honestly I don't feel you've alienated yourself and I'm not mad or anything. I've done my fair share of world travel (10+ other countries). Believe me, there are a lot of countries I'd rather America stay out of, but we're kind of at the point of being damned if we do and damned if we don't. We go in somewhere and we're tyrants, we don't go in somewhere and we're callous uncaring louts. *shrug* In many ways we're actually a lot like Biblical Israel. They were aggressive, took territory where they could, sometimes righteous, sometimes not. We could debate the merits and demerits of our involvement till we're blue in the face, but I figure that some were great ideas, some were not. Lots of times we are in fact *asked* to come in and help though. I do think a lot of countries badmouth us, but are really glad we're the ones taking the financial brunt of keeping a lot of destabilizing forces at bay.

Believe, me, if I'm ever elected benevolent dictator our foreign policy will go through some serious revamp. I'd pull flat out of a ton of places (pull out our military AND our money thank you very much), and other places I would give two options: 1) Become a state of the U.S. or 2) We're out. Further, it would take a public and formal request from a country for us to go get involved in any particular war or whatever they were fighting, and that help would consist of a shock and awe campaign, a quick burst of humanitarian aide, and we're out. And of course just any old request would get a yes, just saying I wouldn't go in where I wasn't wanted, except if we had actionable intelligence that an attack was about to be carried out against American citizens.

Oh, and spying/espionage is *every* country. Ever. That would still continue, sorry. It would be suicidal not to have spies. Yeah I'd love to live in a world where we didn't need them, but we don't.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

So, I don't really feel alienated, but my perspective is different. I think America and it's people are delusional about democracy and their own motivations. I think that America is and has been an Empire in all but the most literal sense of the word, but we don't like to think about it that way. We (collectively and individually) come across as imperious because we are an Empire. (Just like a non-denominational church can't help but be a denomination, whether they cop to it or not)

Which brings us to the question of: What gives us the right? The simple (and doubtlessly irritating) answer is, all authority comes from God. Paul wrote this to the Roman Christians! The authority is not granted due to intrinsic worth, or if it is I need to know what was so great about the Roman Empire that God granted them such massive authority. Has there ever been an Empire that reliably dealt justly with the countries it projected it's power upon? Or stated another way, can wars ever cease? I think what grates the worst is that we are an Empire that wants to be seen as just another country (albeit the best one ever), and so we forgo the obvious conquest and tribute and trade it for less obvious assassination and blackmail while maintaining a monologue of freedom and democracy for all.

BUT...the authority is granted because it is granted, because it is God's design. We lied, cheated, murdered and oppressed our way into power. We continue this behavior to the present day. That does not nullify America's authority, which comes from God still.

America's sins are great, however. As FollowingHim stated, we have been given much, and I assert we have much to answer for. God will quite justly remove us from our place of prominence, and who can say whom He will elevate? I suppose Russia or China, but will it really be because of their clean hands?

And then, it will be my Christian duty to pay taxes or tribute or whatever else to my new Russian overlords. And they will oppress me, and for every mile I am compelled to carry a burden, I must go with them two. All this because I am a citizen of The Kingdom, whether or not there is an America.

 

[FollowingHim]

Very perceptive Slumberfreeze!

I think America and it's people are delusional about democracy and their own motivations.

Democracy seems to be the solution for everything in American foreign policy. Which is frankly stupid in the Middle East. Democracy is majority rule, when the majority are Muslim and their religion teaches that they can oppress minority faiths, and you hand them a political system that allows them to legitimately do just that... The consequences are predictable.

I think that America is and has been an Empire in all but the most literal sense of the word, but we don't like to think about it that way. We (collectively and individually) come across as imperious because we are an Empire.

"The great city that rules over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17). It does not depose them from being kings, nevertheless rules over them economically and with the threat of military action if they get out of line.

who can say whom He will elevate? I suppose Russia or China, but will it really be because of their clean hands?

No, but Israel's ancient conquerors were not chosen for their clean hands, but for their physical ability to carry out God's judgement.

 

[FollowingHim]

Which brings us to the question of: What gives us the right? The simple (and doubtlessly irritating) answer is, all authority comes from God.

Here you assume that the USA does have the legitimate right to interfere in other countries. Then conclude that that right must come from God. But is the USA's authority over, say, Syria, legitimate? Or is Syria nothing to do with the USA? Has God given Barrack Obama authority over Syria, or Basshar Al-Assad? I would think He has given Al-Assad that authority, as the legitimately elected ruler.

America's authority comes from having a bigger sword than anybody else, plain and simple. Now, the fact that the USA has that sword is because God has allowed it to. But that means Russia and China's military might is also from God to an equal extent.

"All authority comes from God" does not justify exercising military might. If it does, Vladimir Putin's military might gives him the God-given authority to invade the whole of the Ukraine, and Iran has the God-given authority to "liberate" Iraq from ISIS and take over.

Taken to the extreme, this becomes fatalism. Everything is right because God allowed it. So do whatever you have the power to do and God must have wanted you to.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just rambling...

 

[ylop]

It is good to share opinions.

I don't believe the authority of the USA comes from God.

The USA has the same amount of divine authority as a petty street gang.

Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

People in the USA have historically been good at amassing and extending power, through their guns/bombs etc.

What is 'foreign policy'?

In other words, "who is my neighbour"?

Just because the head of a gang says its okay to kill, steal and destroy, does not make it okay.

Should a Christian participate in a gang's extension of its territory?

What about if the head of a neighbouring gang, whose power is weakening, invites our gang to help?

Is it okay to spy, kill, torture, destroy, on his behalf?

Is that Christian?

 

[UntoldGlory]

Ylop I started to respond to that one, then I realized it would just pull us back into that old debate about the acceptability of war in the first place which we all kind of agreed to disagree on.

I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the "rightness" of Christians say... rebelling against their rulers, because of Romans 13 and the lines about all authority. I will say that I do not believe that just because someone is in power means they have God's backing, and I really don't think that's what Slumber really meant to say. FH is right though, treading the path of "everything is God's will" is a path to fatalism and doing nothing at all for fear of interfering with said plans.

 

[FollowingHim]

Sorry for dragging us down that old path again... Unfortunately it is one of several key elements to the similarities between the USA and Babylon so is unavoidable to touch on when discussing this topic. Regardless of whether the USA's well-meant military actions were right, just, wise, or the opposite in any individual case, I think the key point is that they have happened. They are evidence of the USA's power over the kings of the earth, and evidence of a claimed moral superiority / arrogance, both of which are strongly relevant to the prophetic description of Babylon.

 

[ylop]

There have been many mighty kingdoms since Revelation was written.

The Romans kept going a while longer, there was Ghengis Khan's travelling show, the British were the most recently deposed from the top spot.

The USA has an impressive scale, but I really don't think its Babylon.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Here you assume that the USA does have the legitimate right to interfere in other countries. Then conclude that that right must come from God. But is the USA's authority over, say, Syria, legitimate? Or is Syria nothing to do with the USA?


America's authority comes from having a bigger sword than anybody else, plain and simple. Now, the fact that the USA has that sword is because God has allowed it to. But that means Russia and China's military might is also from God to an equal extent.

Taken to the extreme, this becomes fatalism. Everything is right because God allowed it. So do whatever you have the power to do and God must have wanted you to.

Totally. Legitimacy and Fatalism are both the points that stick in the throat. Legitimacy is tricky, though. The bible speaks against rebellion in both testaments, and yet rebellion is how the U.S.A. was formed. My constitution based friends like to shoehorn the word legitimate into any discussion involving Romans 13, but it isn't really there. How legitimate was Caesar's claim on Israel in the time of Christ? If any people ever had a legitimate claim on the land and people of Israel, it was the Jews themselves, down to the tribal boundaries that The Lord had purposed. That did not deter Jesus from outright commanding people to pay taxes to their despotic pork-eating oppressors. Jesus himself paid the temple tax even though he was legitimately exempt from it.

Fatalism is a good attitude if one may say "This is the situation that God has ordained that I should find myself in, I will therefore behave as He specifies in this circumstance". Fatalism is, (as I take you to point out) really silly if one says "This is happening, so the people doing it must be right to do it". Romans 13:1 says "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is NO power but of God. The powers THAT BE are ordained of God"

That's it. There aren't any other qualifiers. If it is a 'higher power' (or, rephrased, a power that is over you). All it has to do is "Be" and it is ordained. (assigned, appointed)

This is why I try to avoid the word legitimate if at all possible, especially to my constitution scholar friends. The word legitimate turns us into lawyers. America wasn't formed in a terribly legit fashion. It did not come to power in a legit fashion. Many of our recent presidents were not elected or qualified legitimately. But ordained of God without doubt. They are powers that be. And because there are no other type of powers, there is no-one that can rule over us that God did not ordain to do so. We have The Word on that. And therefore dues, tribute, custom, fear and honor to the lot of them, whether or not it suits our moral or political discernment.

The rulers are God's servants. They are usually not good and faithful ones, but they are ordained to be rulers nonetheless, or they would not be rulers at all because, (sorry to belabor the point) there is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God.

 

[ylop]

I do not believe in the divine right of kings, even in its modern guises.

 

[FollowingHim]

I must point out that Slumberfreeze's scripturally backed statements are somewhat more convincing than "Ylop doesn't believe"...

 

[FollowingHim]

If Romans 13 does not give legitimacy, but rather just gives ability, then God has allowed the USA to become dominant on the world stage. But it has no "right" to be dominant. In the same way, God has allowed ISIS to slaughter many Christians, but they have no "right" to do so. Romans 13 simply tells the individual how best to act in a given situation, to avoid trouble. Obey the rulers.

So, if you're living in ISIS controlled Iraq, and they say all women must wear burquas, have your wife wear a burqua, to avoid trouble. If they demand a tax from Christians, pay it, to avoid being killed. Because God has allowed them to rule over you.
If you live under American law, don't break it, keep out of trouble with the authorities.
If a foreign nation has invaded your country, and assumes control, obey them, to keep out of trouble.

But none of that gives any moral legitimacy to the actions of any authority, be they a democratic government, a foreign military, or a dictatorship. Nor does it say these actions are illegitimate either.

 

[ylop]

The divine right of kings says that the established authorities are of God, and to be obeyed.

I reject that belief in its entirety.

People can quote all the scriptures they like about obeying government, but the assumption behind it is almost always the divine right of kings.

Kings are murderers, thieves and liars from the beginning.

They have no authority.

It is the acquiescence of other people that gives them the authority.

The people acquiesce, and then invent some justification for it.

1 Samuel 8:6-7
But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Ok, I've been thinking about how to reconcile Romans 13 with all of the examples in the Bible of *not* following authority.. I payed special attention to the NT examples that we have. Here are my thoughts.

Romans 13 tells us that all authority is from God and we must submit to governing authorities. How do we reconcile that though with the fact that the Apostles themselves ignored the edicts of the Sanhedrin?
Well, Jesus was confronted and asked about paying taxes to Rome, etc. His response was to render unto Cesar what was Cesar's, and to God what is God's. Further, in the Old Testament we have many, many examples of times where God has raised up someone to incite rebellion against the established government. In point of fact (sorry ylop), we have examples of God-led spying, mass killings, and even assassination. So again, how do we reconcile?

My thought is that unless given clear instruction by God then we should follow the edicts of the authorities established over us. Or I should say we follow them unless they directly contradict God's word or clear instruction he has given us.

How do we apply that?

Let's take a couple of Slumber's examples, then add some more:
Should we pay taxes to our Russian overlords? Yes. That does not contradict the word.
Should we have our wives wear long robes and veils should we live under middle eastern rule? Yes. That does not contradict the word.
Should we profess that there is no god but Allah, and bow to him just because the government says we must? No. That goes against the word of God. We even have specific examples of that one.
Do we take up arms to rebel against a government established over us? Only if we are darn well sure that God has told us to. In the Bible we see rebellions that succeeded and rebellions that failed based on whether God was with them or not. Kings that had done the will of God overstepped their bounds, got greedy or prideful, and were toppled. Sometimes the people of God were given over to be ruled by the wicked as punishment for turning away.

So I think we must try and serve our governments well while still leading lives that are above reproach. If we come to a place where leading a life above reproach necessitates us to disobey the will of our government, then we do so.