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James, the half-brother of Jesus
- Thread starter GroomOf5Wise
- Start date
Leave us not forget that James was slated for martyrdom and Christ may have just been providing for His mother once her other son was also dead.
I've been to the place in Ephesus where the RCC claims she lived out her life with John. I saw no indication it really was but it was a neat experience. Of course that whole day was amazing.
I've been to the place in Ephesus where the RCC claims she lived out her life with John. I saw no indication it really was but it was a neat experience. Of course that whole day was amazing.
Also, He could have been providing for John. The young man may not of had a home to go to after the crucifixion. In fact this seems more likely to me. He may very well have been giving John to His mother than His mother to John.
As
As in he was likely an underage youngin?
Or just a very young man who was going to need guidance and help after all the trauma and drama of the last three years.
Right. The early 20's are rough if you've spent the last three years being a vagrant.
In a more general sense why even argue scripture at all? I see some profit in it to sharpen your own understanding, but I think as I get older I do it less and less. Now I tend to focus on people who have genuine questions that they do not know the answer to and want help with it (like Phillip and the Ethiopian in Acts 8).
Trying to convince others against their will seems mostly futile. It almost gets to be a pearls before swine type of situation. It is an endless pit. Let your life and your ministry be your argument.
Specifically to BF and polygamy always remember the burder is on them to prove that it is against God's will and a sin. You do not need to convince them. They need to convince you (good luck!). Simply do not accept an opposite frame of reference.
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Could very well be.
@WifeOfHisYouth and I were reading that the other night and we were pretty convinced that there are two different women there.
I am pretty convinced too.
Oh, I do think it's good and profitable to argue scripture, perhaps even with someone actively rejecting the truth, and definitely if there is an audience that might learn. Regarding my comment above, I was thinking in terms of tailoring the argument to the opponent at hand. Specifically, a Catholic regarding their doctrine of Mary's "perpetual virginity". I see Protestants frequently using weak or outright wrong arguments against Catholics, which they can easily defeat (at least in their own mind) and then are strengthened in their ?error? thinking that they have "defended the faith", and that their ?"true"? church withstood another assault. Aside from praying for them, the best approach I see that seems like it might be able to help them is to trigger a search for the truth by showing them an incongruity in what they've been taught or believe... to wit; a logical conflict that they cannot easily explain away as in the case of "til", especially if regarding a non-trivial matter....
Touching on a non-trivial matter; I had some success when I argued the point that God's holy days, which He laid out in the "OT", are memorials of past events and foreshadowings of events __yet to come__. Why then has the church abandoned the observance of God's holy days __which He was very adamant about being observed__, and taken up pagan garbage like easter? I have not yet received an answer to that question.
There are some who seem more interested in some thing being the truth than in the truth itself. I think these are identifiable by them appearing to have forsaken all logic and reason with regard to that "truth". Without an audience, I expect that there are better ways to spend one's time than trying to reason with these.
What does MOA mean in this context?
Moses' polygamy status is provable. One can demonstrate clearly that he had at least two wives and likely three though the third is hard to pin down at the same time as the others were living; we just don't know when they died. Check out the Biblical Families: Moses as a Polygamist thread. Good stuff over there.
Ha, it's how I got my 2nd wife.
She resisted the polygamy angle pretty hard for about 6 weeks or less. She's an intellectually honest person though and after a while she saw she could not defeat my position, well, because it was right.
That should be a rule of thumb: Do not argue scripture unless there is a chance you could get a second wife out of it.
Good advise.
MOA = Monogamy Only Advocate.
My best understanding is that one cannot prove from the text [of the Torah] that Moses had two wives simultaneously. The MOAs I've read refute saying that Zipporah must have died before Moses took the Chushite. OK, I just skimmed that thread, and I didn't see anywhere that we can prove Moses had two living wives at the same time. If you have a place or argument/exegesis that you could cite... that would be great, because I am working on a message right now and I would love to be able to pull out an air-tight "Moses was a polygynist" argument. Thanks.
Regarding the siblings of Jesus, Matthew 13:55-56 states that "His brothers are named James, Joseph (Jr.), Simon, and Judas. And His sisters, are they not all with us?"
If Jesus had only 1 sister, verse 56 would read, "And His sister, is she not with us?"
If Jesus had 2 sisters, it would read, "And His sisters, are they not both with us?"
So Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 3 or more sisters because verse 56 reads, "And His sisters, are they not all with us?"
Since Jesus was Mary's firstborn, the other (7 or more siblings) would all be younger than Jesus.
If these 7 (or more) were Joseph Sr.'s children, I don't think Scripture would call them Jesus' brothers and sisters, because then they would be step-siblings if they were not born to Mary.
James and Judas wrote the New Testament books of James and Jude.
If Jesus had only 1 sister, verse 56 would read, "And His sister, is she not with us?"
If Jesus had 2 sisters, it would read, "And His sisters, are they not both with us?"
So Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 3 or more sisters because verse 56 reads, "And His sisters, are they not all with us?"
Since Jesus was Mary's firstborn, the other (7 or more siblings) would all be younger than Jesus.
If these 7 (or more) were Joseph Sr.'s children, I don't think Scripture would call them Jesus' brothers and sisters, because then they would be step-siblings if they were not born to Mary.
James and Judas wrote the New Testament books of James and Jude.
IMHO this assumption is a product of not just western civilization, but late, recent civilization that is full of instances of serial monogamy where we’ve been programmed to differentiate between serial mommies.
If a man with multiple wives can enjoy the relational status of one flesh, why would his children by these different women be excluded from the same status. Joseph is a prime example of this as well as Gideon’s 70 sons by many women/wives.
In Biblical culture, who your mother was is simply secondary to the overwhelming theme of “Who’s your DADDY?” Just like our relationship with Christ. It doesn’t matter who you’re momma is. Who’s your ABBA?
Questions regarding Jesus' birth:
In Luke 1:26-33 Mary is told by the angel Gabriel that she will be with child who will be called the Son of the Most High." (In Mary's dream, she is told she WILL be with child.)
Luke 1:34 states that Mary's reaction is: "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" (She does not make any mention of being pledged to be married to Joseph.)
Mary got ready and hurried to visit Elizabeth. Luke 1:56 states that "Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home."
Matthew 1:20-25 states that "Joseph had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a Son," The Bible does not say that Joseph had no union with another possible wife. Joseph was not with Mary for three months while she was visiting Elizabeth. And the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and calls him, "Joseph, son of David." And David was also a known polygynst. (Joseph's dream occurred later than Mary's dream, because Joseph did not know that Mary's pregnancy was through the Holy Spirit.) So that is why even though he was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to pubic disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
1. Did Mary not know she had been pledged or promised in marriage to Joseph as she makes no mention of him, so could it have been an arranged marriage that only Joseph knew about?
2. Did God guide Mary to hurry and go visit Elizabeth as soon as she was told she would become pregnant to prove to skeptics that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father?
3. The Bible does not say where Elizabeth was living when Mary visited her except it was a town in the hill country of Judea. Was this Joseph's plan to not expose Mary to public disgrace?
4. Is it possible Joseph did not know whether Mary would be returning home until she came back and was considering divorcing her for three months?
5. How long was it before Joseph had his dream and found out the truth about Mary's pregnancy?
6. Is it possible Joseph already had a wife since the Bible does not state that Joseph was a virgin, only that Mary was a virgin?
In Luke 1:26-33 Mary is told by the angel Gabriel that she will be with child who will be called the Son of the Most High." (In Mary's dream, she is told she WILL be with child.)
Luke 1:34 states that Mary's reaction is: "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" (She does not make any mention of being pledged to be married to Joseph.)
Mary got ready and hurried to visit Elizabeth. Luke 1:56 states that "Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home."
Matthew 1:20-25 states that "Joseph had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a Son," The Bible does not say that Joseph had no union with another possible wife. Joseph was not with Mary for three months while she was visiting Elizabeth. And the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and calls him, "Joseph, son of David." And David was also a known polygynst. (Joseph's dream occurred later than Mary's dream, because Joseph did not know that Mary's pregnancy was through the Holy Spirit.) So that is why even though he was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to pubic disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
1. Did Mary not know she had been pledged or promised in marriage to Joseph as she makes no mention of him, so could it have been an arranged marriage that only Joseph knew about?
2. Did God guide Mary to hurry and go visit Elizabeth as soon as she was told she would become pregnant to prove to skeptics that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father?
3. The Bible does not say where Elizabeth was living when Mary visited her except it was a town in the hill country of Judea. Was this Joseph's plan to not expose Mary to public disgrace?
4. Is it possible Joseph did not know whether Mary would be returning home until she came back and was considering divorcing her for three months?
5. How long was it before Joseph had his dream and found out the truth about Mary's pregnancy?
6. Is it possible Joseph already had a wife since the Bible does not state that Joseph was a virgin, only that Mary was a virgin?