Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it moral?

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

If God told Hagar to go back to Abram, how is that not God saying that marriage to two wives is okay and actually commanded at that point.

If polygyny were wrong or sinful, then God would have never told her to go back into it. God hates sin and has no part in it...period.
Blessings,
Fairlight

If a man marries a second women, he should not divorce her. But not divorcing the second wife, does not mean that it was not a sin to take the second wife in marriage originally. One could argue that if you have a child out of wedlock, you should be a good father to that child and take care of the child, but that would not justify having a child out of wedlock to begin with. This goes back to my earlier statement "IF YOU SWALLOW POISON CONTACT THE POISON CONTROL CENTER IMMEDIATELY AND FOLLOW THESE DIRECTIONS. This would not mean that it is okay to swallow poison just because there are directions for what to do afterward."

"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
Malachi 2:16 NIV

Second even if it did mean polygamy was okay for Abraham, that would only mean polygamy is okay in some cases and possibly only one case. It would not mean polygamy is okay in all cases, because it was not a command to all people, but rather merely to Hagar and possibly but not necessarily also indirectly Abraham's family.

Third God did not tell Hagar go back to Abraham and stay married to him. She could possibly go back and be a maidservant and not have sex with Abraham anymore and not be married to Abraham anymore. Although I find that doubtful God would probably expect her to stay married because God hates divorce.

It is interesting because people have used what God told Hagar and Abraham also to try to refute polygamy

Anti-Polygamists will use
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.
Genesis 17:1 NIV
to justify anti-polygamy by saying God told Abraham to walk before him blameless because he committed a sin in Genesis 16 and that sin was taking Hagar. I find this objection laughable, because God wants all people to be blameless, if Abraham had not committed any sin in the last 10 years God might still till him to walk before him and be blameless because God would not want him to commit a future sin! Furthermore this objection is laughable because God did not name marrying Hagar as his sin in Genesis 17:1, even if Ge 17:1 meant he committed a sin, it could have been any action he did, not necessarily marrying Hagar but another action.

Anti-Polygamists will also use Genesis 21:8-14 NIV
The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring." Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.

They would argue something like

If God told Abraham to send Hagar away, God is saying that marriage to two wives is sinful and a divorce is actually commanded at that point!

Where as you would say that

If God told Hagar to go back to Abram, how is that not God saying that marriage to two wives is okay and actually commanded at that point.

This is one of many examples why I think what God commanded to someone within the set and situation that the command applies is a more appropriate way of deciding morality than using what God commanded to someone in one set to apply to someone in a different set.

Or in other words it is much better to determine morality by Bible commands than by Bible Stories.

(Bible stories are historically accurate I do not mean that they are not historically accurate by the use of the word story.)

By the way I really appreciate pointing out that God told Hagar to go back to Abraham because a lot of people try to use Hagar as a reason against polygamy and this argument is very helpful for me to remember and grow in faith.

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

But I have not seen clear proof that it is okay to initiate (in the future) the marriage to a second, third, fourth, etc. wife

The Bible would make a lot more sense if polygamy was morally acceptable.

I agree. You just stated a good reason.

But unfortunately I have not seen any clear cut statement that polygamy is clearly okay to initiate.

You need to understand burden of proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

"the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

The burden of proof is on the side that claims that polygamy is a sin.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

If God gave David his wives and told him he would have given him more, how is that not a clear example of God saying it was okay to marry more than one woman.

If God said that God was a man after God's own heart and David had 9+ wives, how is that not an example of God allowing marriage to multiple women.

If God told Hagar to go back to Abram, how is that not God saying that marriage to two wives is okay and actually commanded at that point.

SweetLissa

This is a good argument but there is a limit to it.

The biggest limit is showing polygamy was okay for David, would potentially only show it was okay for David, but not necessarily for other people.

If God allows something it does not make it moral. For example God did not change the laws of physics so that people never ever die when they are shot by bullets. So if someone dies when shot by bullets God is responsible for it. None the less God does not desire for people to kill people who have done no crime, for which God has prescribed death. God has allowed murder because if he truly prohibited murder people would not die when shot by bullets. Yet God is still displeased with certain types of killing specifically murder, so much that unlawful murderers were executed by lawful killing

An anti-polygamist might argue

God may have allowed the circumstances to get the wives, and in this way given David the wives. Yet God may have still desired for David not to take the wives even when offered them.

God also gave David the opportunity to get even more wives to fight against his lusts, which although perhaps NOT THE BEST, would still have been better than a huge sin worthy of death like polygamy. In this argument God would only mildly disapprove of polygamy but hate adultery so much that it is punished by death.

Or given more could just be a second opportunity for more wives that God also hopes David would reject.

That all being said it makes more sense to me that God had absolutely no problem with David's polygamy but a huge problem with David's adultery

Thank you for your response and everyone else for there responses and listed books and websites.

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

But I also see no verse directly stating that a man may, or should marry more than one woman.

A man can and should marry more than one woman in the case of levirate marriage (Dueteronomy 25:5-10) for example. The fact that he might be already married does not absolve him of his duty.

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

That all being said it makes more sense to me that God had absolutely no problem with David's polygamy but a huge problem with David's adultery

Agreed. There are no explicit verses otherwise there would be no controversy. The fact that the practice was apparently quite common and yet God was silent on the issue speaks volumes to those who are willing to listen. In view of this I think it wise to go with what makes the most sense unless you have some reason not to.

Chris

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Dear Discussing,
Your writing style seems somewhat familiar. Glad you are here. You said "Or in other words it is much better to determine morality by Bible commands than by Bible Stories."
Are you operating under the premise that pro-"Biblical marriage" people believe it is commanded? If that is the case you and/or anti-poly people are operating under an incorrect asumption. I can't speak for others but the only place I can find where plural marriage may be considered commanded is: 1. The levirate marriage, where the near-kinsman raises up seed to his brother and 2. A man seduces a virgin, he is responsible to marry her even if he already has a wife. Beyond this, we are just talking about marriage and marriage x2 and marriage x3 and marriage x4. It is just marriage, the responsibility and rewards are the same, just greater numbers and blessing.Proof to the unwilling is always a check in the mail.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Dear Discussing,
Your writing style seems somewhat familiar. Glad you are here. You said "Or in other words it is much better to determine morality by Bible commands than by Bible Stories."
Are you operating under the premise that pro-"Biblical marriage" people believe it is commanded? If that is the case you and/or anti-poly people are operating under an incorrect asumption. I can't speak for others but the only place I can find where plural marriage may be considered commanded is: 1. The levirate marriage, where the near-kinsman raises up seed to his brother and 2. A man seduces a virgin, he is responsible to marry her even if he already has a wife. Beyond this, we are just talking about marriage and marriage x2 and marriage x3 and marriage x4. It is just marriage, the responsibility and rewards are the same, just greater numbers and blessing.Proof to the unwilling is always a check in the mail.

Command was not the best word for me to use.

I am not so much looking for a command that all men must be polygamous...

So much as a statement that polygamy is allowed to certain men, and not considered sinful.

And second a way to figure out which men are allowed to have more than one wife.

I believe that God telling a single individual to do something may only apply to that individual rather than all people.

And that someone doing something (marrying one wife, or multiple wives) does not make it known to be moral or immoral, to do the same thing or a different thing than they did.

When God requires, allows or forbids something you must know who it is allowed, required or forbidden for and under what circumstances.

If you are not in the group then it does not necessarily apply to you and if you are in the group than it applies to you.

So far all anti-polygamy arguments have miserably failed to establish that they include me. Anti-polygamists can only argue effectively for anti-polygamy among specific individuals like deacons, elders, etc. that do not include me

"Proof to the unwilling is always a check in the mail."

I do not think I have a strong anti-polygamy agenda, other than being raised in an anti-polygamous society. I want to make sure that I am not deceived by a biased pro-polygamy attitude I may have as a result of a strong desire for polygamy.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

I do not think I have a strong anti-polygamy agenda, other than being raised in an anti-polygamous society. I want to make sure that I am not deceived by a biased pro-polygamy attitude I may have as a result of a strong desire for polygamy.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you had an anti polygamy bias or attitude. I was meaning to convey the thought that people unwilling to believe the truth will always be sceptacle no matter what "proof" is afforded them. What think you of the idea that it isn't an issue of poly but simply marriage? Plural marriage is too often looked at as a unique, separate institution.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

If a man marries a second women, he should not divorce her. But not divorcing the second wife, does not mean that it was not a sin to take the second wife in marriage originally. One could argue that if you have a child out of wedlock, you should be a good father to that child and take care of the child, but that would not justify having a child out of wedlock to begin with.

God does hate divorce but God hates all sin. If polygyny was sinful, how would that be any better than divorce ? Spiritually speaking, any sin will separate us from God. God was / is not shy about letting us know what displeases him. If polygyny was sinful, He would have said so.
(Your parallel here doesn't really work. Having a child out of wedlock isn't sinful. The sin would have been one of fornication or adultery...not the birth of the child. I know where you were trying to go with it but it's a weak parallel.)

Second even if it did mean polygamy was okay for Abraham, that would only mean polygamy is okay in some cases and possibly only one case. It would not mean polygamy is okay in all cases, because it was not a command to all people, but rather merely to Hagar and possibly but not necessarily also indirectly Abraham's family.

So, are you saying that God is into situational ethics ? Either something is morally wrong or it isn't. God would never instruct someone to go back into a sinful situation. If polygyny was sinful, why did God refer to himself in the book of Ezekiel as having two wives? It wasn't meant literally but God would never describe himself as doing something sinful.

Bottom line....if polygyny is morally wrong, where is the Biblical prohibition against it ?
Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

If a man marries a second women, he should not divorce her. But not divorcing the second wife, does not mean that it was not a sin to take the second wife in marriage originally. One could argue that if you have a child out of wedlock, you should be a good father to that child and take care of the child, but that would not justify having a child out of wedlock to begin with.

God does hate divorce but God hates all sin. If polygyny was sinful, how would that be any better than divorce ? Spiritually speaking, any sin will separate us from God. God was / is not shy about letting us know what displeases him. If polygyny was sinful, He would have said so.
(Your parallel here doesn't really work. Having a child out of wedlock isn't sinful. The sin would have been one of fornication or adultery...not the birth of the child. I know where you were trying to go with it but it's a weak parallel.)

Yes I should have phrased it differently. If people fornicate and that results in a child. They would be expected to take care of the child but it would not mean the fornication resulting in the child was okay. There is nothing wrong with giving birth to children who were conceived by fornication. Abortion is murder.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

So, are you saying that God is into situational ethics ?

Just because something is relative does not mean it is not also absolute.

Although what is right and wrong depends on the situation, cirumstances, etc. There is a set of absolutely morally right potential actions and absolutely morally wrong potential actions for each situation, circumstances, etc.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

The act of staying married and the act of getting married could possibly be two different actions.

Thus it could be possible to be immoral to marry someone and moral to not marry that person. But also immoral to divorce and moral not to divorce.

Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Our moral absolutes are clearly laid out in the Ten Commandments. Which one of the Ten Commandments would a polygamist be breaking by taking a second wife?

 

[sweetlissa]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Caleb was another man who had multiple wives and concubines.
Num 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Num 32:12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
The point being that if having more than one wife was a "secret" sin then God would not have said he had "wholly followed the Lord."
There are many of the Patriarchs that had multiple wives. Including Moses who wrote the Law.
David was considered a man after God's own heart and God specifically said that the only thing he did wrong was commit adultery with Bathsheba and kill Uriah the Hittite.
1Ki 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

There is a list of at least 40 men in the bible who practiced plural marriage openly with no recourse from God, so your argument that it was only allowed for David goes away with that list.

As far as sin goes, you need to look at the definition of the word sin. Sin is to go against the law. If there is no law against plural marriage then there cannot be a sin. There is no "secret law".

 

[mrscottyl]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Just because something is relative does not mean it is not also absolute.

Just because something is relative to us does not mean it is relative to Him. Too many people try to understand His will through human logic. We know that His will comes from the wisdom that comes from above, and the wisdom of this earth is foolishness to Him. It can be hard sometimes not to read into Scripture what we think should be in there in order to cause Scripture to make more sense to us, but instead of doing that, we should turn to the Holy Spirit and ask for wisdom and guidance from above instead of trying to use the wisdom and guidance that comes from this earth.

Scott

 

[mrscottyl]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

The act of staying married and the act of getting married could possibly be two different actions.

Thus it could be possible to be immoral to marry someone and moral to not marry that person. But also immoral to divorce and moral not to divorce.

Thanks for the input everyone.

The problem is again, whose standards are you choosing to use. There is only One who decides who is married and who is divorced. If a man who is married goes out and has sex with a prostitute, has he married that prostitute or was that prostitute actually married to someone else therewith the man commits adultery? Just because a woman is single according to Man's Laws does not mean that in His eyes she is single, and vice versa. He means what He says and says what He means. Is there anywhere in Scripture where He says that He hates or considers as an abomination either polygamy or the person being polygamous? Is there anything in Scripture to even hint that this is the case? Our morals should come from Him and not from what others think or what society/culture says. Since no one but Him judges as to who is and who is not married, then only His opinion in the matter counts, and He has already stated what His opinion of polygyny is. We could go round and round in circles, and do as Moses did and argue against what He has said until He becomes angry with us.

Scott

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

If polygyny was sinful, why did God refer to himself in the book of Ezekiel as having two wives? It wasn't meant literally but God would never describe himself as doing something sinful.
Fairlight

Are you talking about the two sisters in Ezekiel 23?

Specifically Ezekiel 23:4 and 23:37 suggests they might be married because of the phrase Bore and my children and mine. The Amplified and New American Standard Bible use the phrase "became mine" instead of "were mine" which almost certainly suggests they were married, (if I knew Hebrew well that would help a lot.)

But I am not sure they would be married (New Living Translation refers to them as married, but I question if NLT really is a translation!)

After all everyone is God's in a sense.
If they are his children. And they had his grandchildren through someone other than God. I do not know if you can count them as bearing him children? This could be because sometimes someone other than the parents are counted as the parents.

Then she said, "Here is Bilhah, my maidservant. Sleep with her so that she can bear children for me and that through her I too can build a family."
So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife. Jacob slept with her, and she became pregnant and bore him a son. Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan.
Genesis 23:3-6 NIV

So Boaz took Ruth and she became his wife. Then he went to her, and the LORD enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son.
Ruth 4:13 NIV
The women living there said, "Naomi has a son." And they named him Obed. He was the father of Jesse, the father of David.
Ruth 4:17 NIV

One question that also would bother me about them being married would be

They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed.
Ezekiel 23:3NIV
If they were married, wouldn't they not be virgins anymore before Egypt got to them, because God would get at them first. Although I suppose they could have been betrothed?

I am looking at the right passage in Ezekiel or are you referring to another passage?

Thank you for bringing up the passage in Ezekiel. I did not remember thinking about those sisters as having been married to God, but it seems to make a lot of sense based on the wording.


For those who want to debate if Jesus was physically rather than symbolically married, which I highly doubt that he was..... This would be about the closest to evidence I have seen so far, except for most people including me consider it a symbol and not an actual historical event.

 

[mrscottyl]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

The NIV and the NASB and the Amplified Bible translations are all equal to the the NLT in their audacity to pervert Scripture. That being said, how many times in Scripture does the Father say that He and the Children of Israel were married? He even said that He wrote them a bill of divorcement. How could He do that unless He was married to them?

Scott

 

[Tlaloc]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

NIV offers better renderings than the KJV in some cases, and the original ASB was apparently a top notch translation rivaling for the best before a committee got a hold of it and revised some things for reasons of church politics for its second version which the NASB is based on, but even then it renders some things better as well. In my first post in this very thread I saw another case where the NIV is clearly better rendered than KJV, ASB, NASB, MKJV, and YLT. But every translation has inaccuracy, its the very nature of translation to have inadequacies. But if we want to really get into translations there is already a thread for that...

Carl,

Not minding the side discussions that have come up, is your original question\objection answered sufficiently for you? That is, is it settled that there are no cases of things being secretly frowned upon and positive commands are not necessary to make things moral? I don't want to derail the conversations that have sprung but I do want to know if the original problem is solved or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Just because polygamy is not illegal does it make it mor

Since your original question was if polygamy is moral, I ask again, which of the Ten Commandments would a man be breaking by taking a second wife?