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Law, commands, or instructions?

This, too, may be great dogma, but you will NOT find that claim in Scripture

Well... James 2:10 says if I stumble in one point of the law, I'm guilty of breaking the whole thing... sooo... what am I missing?

No, he really didn't. But I know that's what we've been told.

Are you sure you aren't being overly Spartan here? Maybe one or two sentences detailing what exactly Peter was talking about and how it would be properly seen apart from what I get from a plain read-through?
 
I can't be defined as a Hebrew Roots or Messianic type of believer, but I love my brethren who are. I do seek to delve more into Torah as best I can, though, to see just how my life is matching up to the Law that David described as perfect and enlightening (and for those who say that is speaking also of the NT...nope! Does it apply? Yes, but correct exegesis is Torah).

It burns me up when the mainstream evangelical seeks to win others to Christ by saying "Jesus loves you...won't you accept Him?" Say what??? True conversion requires a healthy dose of the 10, of Torah, and more. If they can't be convinced they are lost, how can you show them the perfect way?

We must be meek, humble, and loving doing it, but forceful in the approach to show their depravity versus God's perfection, as evidenced in His Torah.

But, in defense of the Greeks (shout out to whoever started that term on this post) Hebrew Roots folks can begin to cross that thin line that expresses superiority over those who are not as devout in Torah practice. No man, regardless of how devout to Torah can claim superiority because ALL have sinned and come short...ALL!
 
@Mojo I guess i divert around step 6.

My step 6 looks like
6: As I become more mature and can handle strong meat, I go back to the Law and seek to uncover the mysteries the Holy Spirit reveals through it, and walk in them to please My Lord.

To drag out my old and crusty example: The Law requires unmuzzled oxen treading grain.

If my aim was to 'Follow the Law' I would be in the mindset that I would perform all of the duties I could that applied to me and not bother with the ones that don't touch my actual situation.

But assuming I was a wheat farmer and cattle rancher, I would probably try to thresh my grain with unmuzzled oxen, at least ceremonially.

Which Paul assures me God doesn't even care about. The oxen literally don't matter. If I were to engage in that, God might be pleased with me, but only like Mr. and Mrs. Rogers are pleased with Amelia Bedelia.

The only way to properly keep this law in a way that God is actually concerned about it is to pay the expenses of elders and apostles who benefit me out of my own pocket.

I would feel like I was being deliberately obtuse if I decided to just ... do the law...

Good catch. In my mind this point was implied, but I did not make it explicit, so good one.

Funny, though, how so many folks (especially pastors) argue that we live under Grace and not Law will conveniently bring up the oxen verse to show how we must support the bishop without giving credit that it was from Torah. They like to have it both ways, huh? They will bring up Torah when it's convenient (healthy donations in the offering), but not when it's inconvenient (polygyny). Give a tithe, but ignore trying to eat healthy according to dietary laws....and so on it goes.
 
I would feel like I was being deliberately obtuse if I decided to just ... do the law...

That makes little sense, if you understand the words. You can't "just...do the instruction." You learn from it, seek to apply it...or not. It just turns out that there are consequences for ...not. Plagues. Economic ones ARE coming, because the world has refused His instruction about what IS 'money' (qesef) and what is "dishonest" (the Almighty Dollar, that may SAY 'In god we trust' - but one thing's fer sure...it ain't YHVH, because He calls is "abomination.")

The coming debt collapse is, by any measure, the biggest in human history.

The Pacific is practically dead. Wanna participate? Eat shellfish that He designed to absorb heavy metals, and other stuff that you shouldn't. I don't see it addressed in this thread, because it doesn't fit the dogma, but the simple truth is that those who eat pig and other "not food" will pay for it, with their health. As a physician friend of mine likes to say, "I didn't write the Rules - your real Father did!" (He says there's a death penalty for sodomy, too. Did that Law of Nature get "done away with"? I would suggest the statistics indicate otherwise.)

Using oxen you don't have to argue against a "law" (ugh) that you know is irrelevant anyway is, quite frankly, silly.

But I have a serious question that I just don't see even remotely addressed by the "I'm not under The Law!" crowd:

What IS it about honoring His instruction (INCLUDING His commandments, like His Sabbaths and moedim) that is SOOOOO offensive?


Sorry, but it's time to be blunt and quit the pointless thrashing of meaningless "dogma".

What is so OPPRESSIVE about resting on the day He specified? Is the Roman Church THAT scary? The "tradition" that sacred?

And what's wrong with honoring His "appointed feasts"? Are they really that repugnant? It's not like you can "keep them perfectly". And fer cryin' out loud, since even some people who DID "keep" Pesach (but arguably missed some of The Point) missed His first coming - "How Much MORE SO" those who don't even rehearse for His Second? (And, sadly, many who ignore His 'fall feasts' won't even know what I'm talking about.)

I keep coming back to this, as does He. It really is about Who we serve.

The "Come out of her, My people" Show I'm gonna do in about an hour will ask a related question, since it's been on my heart a lot of late.

Have you ever noticed how people who claim they are "not UNDER the Law!" in fact are living under the most totalitarian, technocratic, pervasive, Big Brother Surveillance State in all human history? That they "break" laws and commit about three or more "felonies" a DAY. That most are more afraid of TSA, the BATF, and the IRS than "God Almighty"? Is that a coincidence?

"Let those who falsely believe they are free, rattle their chains!"
 
But, in defense of the Greeks (shout out to whoever started that term on this post) Hebrew Roots folks can begin to cross that thin line that expresses superiority over those who are not as devout in Torah practice. No man, regardless of how devout to Torah can claim superiority because ALL have sinned and come short...ALL!

Good point; so let me make it as clear as I can again. The only 'superiority' I am arguing for is His Word, as Written, in contrast to what "you have heard it said" (Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38....) that He SHOULD have said if He was as smart as men who re-wrote it for Him think THEY are.

It is a simple instruction: "Choose life!"

And He said that He came (John 10:10) so that we might have that life, and "more abundantly".

"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and not do the things I say?"
 
Good point; so let me make it as clear as I can again. The only 'superiority' I am arguing for is His Word, as Written, in contrast to what "you have heard it said" (Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38....) that He SHOULD have said if He was as smart as men who re-wrote it for Him think THEY are.

It is a simple instruction: "Choose life!"

And He said that He came (John 10:10) so that we might have that life, and "more abundantly".

"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and not do the things I say?"

Beautiful!

I wasn't implying anyone in particular in that description. I've just been around enough Torah followers, or have read enough material to start to see that tendency.

It's kind of like worshipping the beast more than the creator. Do we worship the Torah or the one who revealed it? Just an admonition, not an indictment on a particular person.

Hey, some peace in this thread finally!
 
@Mojo I guess i divert around step 6.

My step 6 looks like
6: As I become more mature and can handle strong meat, I go back to the Law and seek to uncover the mysteries the Holy Spirit reveals through it, and walk in them to please My Lord.

To drag out my old and crusty example: The Law requires unmuzzled oxen treading grain.

If my aim was to 'Follow the Law' I would be in the mindset that I would perform all of the duties I could that applied to me and not bother with the ones that don't touch my actual situation.

But assuming I was a wheat farmer and cattle rancher, I would probably try to thresh my grain with unmuzzled oxen, at least ceremonially.

Which Paul assures me God doesn't even care about. The oxen literally don't matter. If I were to engage in that, God might be pleased with me, but only like Mr. and Mrs. Rogers are pleased with Amelia Bedelia.

The only way to properly keep this law in a way that God is actually concerned about it is to pay the expenses of elders and apostles who benefit me out of my own pocket.

I would feel like I was being deliberately obtuse if I decided to just ... do the law...

I am going to bow out of this conversation for a second time but I couldn't let this one stand. It's a little obtuse to pretend like that passage (which isn't a command anyway but a teaching on a principle) was about anything other than allowing ministers to live off of the gifts of the saints.

And there are laws that only apply to public officials. You're not implying because you don't have weights and measures that other parts of scripture can't be literal to you. It doesn't make sense that just because you don't have oxen and wheat it wouldn't be literal for someone who does. There are laws that apply to parents even though everyone doesn't have children. And the same goes for husbands and wives. Just because you can't find a direct, literal application for you doesn't mean the whole thing is allegory.

Okay, I know it's petty to get a last word and then duck out of the room but that's what I'm doing. We're just replowing the same ground and frankly that's just going to get us into an argument about if we should be muzzling our ox or rounding off the corners of our fields.

Will see some of.you soon! Can't wait!
 
I am going to bow out of this conversation for a second time but I couldn't let this one stand. It's a little obtuse to pretend like that passage (which isn't a command anyway but a teaching on a principle) was about anything other than allowing ministers to live off of the gifts of the saints.

And there are laws that only apply to public officials. You're not implying because you don't have weights and measures that other parts of scripture can't be literal to you. It doesn't make sense that just because you don't have oxen and wheat it wouldn't be literal for someone who does. There are laws that apply to parents even though everyone doesn't have children. And the same goes for husbands and wives. Just because you can't find a direct, literal application for you doesn't mean the whole thing is allegory.

Okay, I know it's petty to get a last word and then duck out of the room but that's what I'm doing. We're just replowing the same ground and frankly that's just going to get us into an argument about if we should be muzzling our ox or rounding off the corners of our fields.

Will see some of.you soon! Can't wait!
Hey Zec, I could be misinterpreting both of you, but I think the point SF was trying to make was exactly what you said. If a law is not applicable in my situation, like slavery, could its application be appropriate for how to treat an employee? Following the Law is to please God, and to make our way easier, not just to say we followed every jot and tittle to our glory. So, if something doesn't directly apply, we can always find its principle (oxen and bishops).

I've commented very little in this thread, so it's obviously not too important to me to hash out. I don't think SF was trying to allegorized all of the Torah. I could be wrong, though.
 
@Mojo That's about what I mean! Thank you!


I certainly look for the spiritual meaning behind every passage. Not just in the Torah, but in the whole Tanakh.

But if I see a law that I can incorporate into my life, I look very carefully into doing it, as my baseline assumption is that it would be profitable, and there probably isn't a better way to do it to be found.
 
Well, even though it gives you heartburn, Imma keep using the word Law. The word does good service in communicating what I'm referring to, and I do so love good communication.

Using oxen you don't have to argue against a "law" (ugh) that you know is irrelevant anyway is, quite frankly, silly.

I'm probably as unhappy with the word irrelevant in this context as you are with the word law.

BUT WHATEVS

Lemme answer your bolded question:
What IS it about honoring His instruction (INCLUDING His commandments, like His Sabbaths and moedim) that is SOOOOO offensive?

Galatians 5:1-5
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. 2Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole Law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

This is about the place where my greek peoples turn alllll the way around from thinking too seriously about being too terribly observant about the law. We obtained grace by the skin of our teeth as it were, for what reason would we go near the line that causes us to fall from it? Paul's like "don't get circumcised" and we're like "Fair enough, didn't sound all that fun anyways"

It's not that we're offended by Sabbaths, commandments, feasts and whatever a moedim is. About half of them sound like more fun then circumcision, at least. And by nature, we were doing things the law required before we were given the law, showing that we totes knew the difference between right and wrong completely apart from the law.

It's that we're really committed to this grace thing we've got going on here. So we're gonna treat personal application of the law rather gingerly, and not just rush into observance even if somebody makes a really good case on paper. Nobody wants to be blown about by every wind of doctrine, particularly if being severed from Christ is an option. In order for us to consider such a thing, we'd have to see that the strict Torah types could demonstrate the superiority of their doctrine (that they're totally not claiming) by seeing if they evidence the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, which is firstly pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

Well, frankly, the number of christians that I've met that really sell me on having these traits I can about count on one hand without needing every last finger. It might just be the limited data points talking, but I haven't seen that the Torah guys have much of an edge in this regard, which leads me to not really be that interested in pursuing what they have.

If I can attain to this without Law observance, then I will. If I happen to die early because of the shellfish gut-rot... well... rats. At least I have another body coming!

But if I live a long and blessed earthly life because of Torah observance, but live as a modern Pharisee, learning only purity from the Holy Spirit but stopping there: I would regard myself very much the loser.
 
I just finished editing and posting the podcast for the live "Come out of her, My people" Show. And since I tend to agree with ZecA that this is becoming repetitive, and the real goal ought to be demonstrating His Truth to folks who may not yet have an opinion that isn't likely to budge...
I'll post that audio and let those with "ears to hear" -- or just enough curiosity to listen ;) -- check it out here:

"Come out of her, My people" Show for 22 June, 2017


Meanwhile, though, this is kinda where I was headed in that show anyway:

If a law is not applicable in [any given] situation, like slavery, could its application be appropriate for how to treat an employee?
...or for people who don't recognize "cruel bondage" when it takes their [fiat] money, taps their phone, gropes their children in airports, and in general just shows 'em what REAL "lawlessness" really looks like?
 
Galatians 5:1-5

Wow, that's truly an AWFUL translation. No wonder we see in a "different context". I doubt that pointing out how the author begins by saying not once, but twice (Gal. 1:6-10) that he's already shocked to see how rapidly the Truth preached by the "Torah Made Flesh" was even then already being 'perverted,' and that those who preach such should be accursed, would make any difference.

But it still begs the questions - just which "law" was he referring to. That passage obfuscates it effectively.

"When the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous
[literally - 'tzadikim' - look it up] do?"
 
Following this has been very enlightening to me in gaining a greater understanding of the Law and being above the Law living in Grace. It brings to mind how in my organization we teach that we need to be a Value driven organization and not a Rule driven organization. Meaning that we, as leaders and supervisors, need to teach our staff the behavior that is expected rather than teach "what NOT to do so that we avoid getting into trouble". It would seem that the Law was to teach us what not to do, so that we stay out of trouble and to live by Grace is to exhibit the behavior expected of us to live by such as Galatians 5: 16-23 teaches us.
 
Exactly. THEIR feasts, the pagan feasts, new moons, and "sabbaths" NEVER pleased Him. He said so OVER and over and over again.
I find it interesting how you constantly insert justifications that can be found only in the dim recesses of your own imaginations, i.e. Pagans. If you knew your Bible as well as you profess, you would know that these references to "the fast" is the Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement, the "new moon and sabbath" is the Rosh Hoshanna or Feast of Trumpets because it was the only Feast Day dictated by the new moon, "thanksgiving" and entering His gates is about the Feast of Tabernacles. I don't understand why you attempt to deflect Isaiah's criticism of these Jewish Feast days and sacrifices by calling them pagan when they clearly were Jewish.

One of the reasons why I appreciate the website earlychristianwritings.com is because it gives an unbiased accounting of the perspectives of the Christian life and thought in the years following the Apostles. Please note that Aristides is not referring to Pagan Feasts as he has already dealt with that in the section on Barbarians and Greeks.

From the Apology of Aristides, a famous Christian apologist about 120 AD in an address to Emperor Hadrian comparing Barbarians, Greeks, Jews and Christians.
XIV. Let us come now, O King, to the history of the Jews also, and see what opinion they have as to God. The Jews then say that God is one, the Creator of all, and omnipotent; and that it is not right that any other should be worshipped except this God alone. And herein they appear to approach the truth more than all the nations, especially in that they worship God and not His works. And they imitate God by the philanthropy which prevails among them; for they have compassion on the poor, and they release the captives, and bury the dead, and do such things as these, which are acceptable before God and well-pleasing also to men,--which (customs) they have received from their forefathers.

Nevertheless they too erred from true knowledge. And in their imagination they conceive that it is God they serve; whereas by their mode of observance it is to the angels and not to God that their service is rendered:--as when they celebrate sabbaths and the beginning of the months, and feasts of unleavened bread, and a great fast; and fasting and circumcision and the purification of meats, which things, however, they do not observe perfectly.

XV. But the Christians, O King, while they went about and made search, have found the truth; and as we learned from their writings, they have come nearer to truth and genuine knowledge than the rest of the nations. For they know and trust in God, the Creator of heaven and of earth, in whom and from whom are all things, to whom there is no other god as companion, from whom they received commandments which they engraved upon their minds and observe in hope and expectation of the world which is to come. [PLEASE NOTE THE COMMANDMENTS THAT THE CHRISTIANS OF THE FIRST AND SECOND CENTURY FOLLOWED AND WHERE THEY ORIGINATED]Wherefore they do not commit adultery nor fornication, nor bear false witness, nor embezzle what is held in pledge, nor covet what is not theirs. They honour father and mother, and show kindness to those near to them; and whenever they are judges, they judge uprightly. They do not worship idols (made) in the image of man; and whatsoever they would not that others should do unto them, they do not to others; and of the food which is consecrated to idols they do not eat, for they are pure. And their oppressors they appease (lit: comfort) and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies; and their women, O King, are pure as virgins, and their daughters are modest; and their men keep themselves from every unlawful union and from all uncleanness, in the hope of a recompense to come in the other world. Further, if one or other of them have bondmen and bondwomen or children, through love towards them they persuade them to become Christians, and when they have done so, they call them brethren without distinction. They do not worship strange gods, and they go their way in all modesty and cheerfulness. Falsehood is not found among them; and they love one another, and from widows they do not turn away their esteem; and they deliver the orphan from him who treats him harshly. And he, who has, gives to him who has not, without boasting. And when they see a stranger, they take him in to their homes and rejoice over him as a very brother; for they do not call them brethren after the flesh, but brethren after the spirit and in God. And whenever one of their poor passes from the world, each one of them according to his ability gives heed to him and carefully sees to his burial. And if they hear that one of their number is imprisoned or afflicted on account of the name of their Messiah, all of them anxiously minister to his necessity, and if it is possible to redeem him they set him free. And if there is among them any that is poor and needy, and if they have no spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of food. They observe the precepts of their Messiah with much care, living justly and soberly as the Lord their God commanded them. Every morning and every hour they give thanks and praise to God for His loving-kindnesses toward them; and for their food and their drink they offer thanksgiving to Him. And if any righteous man among them passes from the world, they rejoice and offer thanks to God; and they escort his body as if he were setting out from one place to another near. And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins. And further if they see that any one of them dies in his ungodliness or in his sins, for him they grieve bitterly, and sorrow as for one who goes to meet his doom.

XVI. Such, O King, is the commandment of the law of the Christians, and such is their manner of life. As men who know God, they ask from Him petitions which are fitting for Him to grant and for them to receive. And thus they employ their whole lifetime. And since they know the loving-kindnesses of God toward them, behold! for their sake the glorious things which are in the world flow forth to view. And verily, they are those who found the truth when they went about and made search for it; and from what we considered, we learned that they alone come near to a knowledge of the truth. And they do not proclaim in the ears of the multitude the kind deeds they do, but are careful that no one should notice them; and they conceal their giving just as he who finds a treasure and conceals it. And they strive to be righteous as those who expect to behold their Messiah, and to receive from Him with great glory the promises made concerning them. And as for their words and their precepts, O King, and their glorying in their worship, and the hope of earning according to the work of each one of them their recompense which they look for in another world,-you may learn about these from their writings. It is enough for us to have shortly informed your Majesty concerning the conduct and the truth of the Christians. For great indeed, and wonderful is their doctrine to him who will search into it and reflect upon it. And verily, this is a new people, and there is something divine (lit: "a divine admixture") in the midst of them.

Take, then, their writings, and read therein, and lo! you will find that I have not put forth these things on my own authority, nor spoken thus as their advocate; but since I read in their writings I was fully assured of these things as also of things which are to come. And for this reason I was constrained to declare the truth to such as care for it and seek the world to come. And to me there is no doubt but that the earth abides through the supplication of the Christians. But the rest of the nations err and cause error in wallowing before the elements of the world, since beyond these their mental vision will not pass. And they search about as if in darkness because they will not recognize the truth; and like drunken men they reel and jostle one another and fall.
 
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I don't think I have commented on this thread at all, or if I have it was only to make the point that I would be reading it closer later. Even so, I have been loosely following it, and to be honest, I have found most of the discussion beneficial as I work out where I stand on this. Personally, I'd like to see the civil debate on this continue, as I am benefitting from it.

One thing I appreciate about this group is that almost anyone commenting is someone who has studied the Bible out, and while we haven't all come to the same conclusions, almost everything I read on this forum comes from sincerity and a well thought out study and the best intentions. What I don't appreciate is the remarks that pop up occasionally that remind me of flies in the soup. They aren't often, but they are pointed, useless, and their purpose doesn't seem to be to show the light of the Father. Yes, we should all stand firm in what we believe, and yes, it is good to debate these things, attempting to win others over to our way, but it is not good when we resort to means that are unbecoming for children of God.
 
Another early to mid second Century Christian Apologist. Approx 130 to 150 AD
The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus

CHAPTER I -- OCCASION OF THE EPISTLE.

Since I see thee, most excellent Diognetus, exceedingly desirous to learn the mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe, so as all to look down upon the world itself, and despise death, while they neither esteem those to be gods that are reckoned such by the Greeks, nor hold to the superstition of the Jews; and what is the affection which they cherish among themselves; and why, in fine, this new kind or practice [of piety] has only now entered into the world, and not long ago; I cordially welcome this thy desire, and I implore God, who enables us both to speak and to hear, to grant to me so to speak, that, above all, I may hear you have been edified, and to you so to hear, that I who speak may have no cause of regret for having done so.
CHAPTER II Deals with the pagan gods etc.
CHAPTER III -- SUPERSTITIONS OF THE JEWS.

And next, I imagine that you are most desirous of hearing something on this point, that the Christians do not observe the same forms of divine worship as do the Jews. The Jews, then, if they abstain from the kind of service above described, and deem it proper to worship one God as being Lord of all, [are right]; but if they offer Him worship in the way which we have described, they greatly err. For while the Gentiles, by offering such things to those that are destitute of sense and hearing, furnish an example of madness; they, on the other hand by thinking to offer these things to God as if He needed them, might justly reckon it rather an act of folly than of divine worship. For He that made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and gives to us all the things of which we stand in need, certainly requires none of those things which He Himself bestows on such as think of furnishing them to Him. But those who imagine that, by means of blood, and the smoke of sacrifices and burnt-offerings, they offer sacrifices [acceptable] to Him, and that by such honours they show Him respect,--these, by supposing that they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, appear to me in no respect to differ from those who studiously confer the same honour on things destitute of sense, and which therefore are unable to enjoy such honours.

CHAPTER IV -- THE OTHER OBSERVANCES OF THE JEWS.

But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,--I do not think that you require to learn anything from me. For, to accept some of those things which have been formed by God for the use of men as properly formed, and to reject others as useless and redundant,--how can this be lawful? And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days,--how is not this impious? And to glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election, and as if, on account of it, they were specially beloved by God,--how is it not a subject of ridicule? And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,--who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the ChriStians properly abstain from the vanity and error common [to both Jews and Gentiles], and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews; but you must not hope to learn the mystery of their peculiar mode of worshipping God from any mortal.

CHAPTER XI -- THESE THINGS ARE WORTHY TO BE KNOWN AND BELIEVED.

I do not speak of things strange to me, nor do I aim at anything inconsistent with right reason; but having been a disciple of the Apostles, I am become a teacher of the Gentiles. I minister the things delivered to me to those that are disciples worthy of the truth. For who that is rightly taught and begotten by the loving Word, would not seek to learn accurately the things which have been clearly shown by the Word to His disciples, to whom the Word being manifested has revealed them, speaking plainly [to them], not understood indeed by the unbelieving, but conversing with the disciples, who, being esteemed faithful by Him, acquired a knowledge of the mysteries of the Father? For which s reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints. furnishing understanding, revealing mysteries, announcing times, rejoicing over the faithful. giving to those that seek, by whom the limits of faith are not broken through, nor the boundaries set by the fathers passed over. Then the fear of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the gospels is established, and the tradition of the Apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults; which grace if you grieve not, you shall know those things which the Word teaches, by whom He wills, and when He pleases. For whatever things we are moved to utter by the will of the Word commanding us, we communicate to you with pains, and from a love of the things that have been revealed to us.

I wish that I could write as well as they do, but I think that the words of the early church (some 200 years prior to the perversion of the RCC) create an unmistakeable difference between the Primitive New Testament Church and what was accepted and why, and the Judaizers and why they were rejected by the Apostles.

Notice any similarities with the thread?
 
This discussion is of clear interest to some individuals, however it is straying quite far from plural marriage, which is the primary topic of this forum. A few individuals are very interested in the discussion and strongly engaged with it, however even they are noting that it is unprofitable as everyone has fairly fixed viewpoints (see @Mark C's post #171). Some readers are finding the information presented valuable to inform their own thinking (e.g. @Richard and @aineo's latest posts). At the same time, other forum users are finding this to be an unhelpful distraction from the real work of this ministry (but they're too polite to say that in public, so you won't actually read that here). This is primarily due to:
the remarks that pop up occasionally that remind me of flies in the soup. They aren't often, but they are pointed, useless, and their purpose doesn't seem to be to show the light of the Father. Yes, we should all stand firm in what we believe, and yes, it is good to debate these things, attempting to win others over to our way, but it is not good when we resort to means that are unbecoming for children of God.
So, given that even those who are strongly engaged in the discussion are noting the futility of it, and that it is drawing out the worst in people to some degree, it's probably a good time to wind up the "debate".

But at the same time, given there are readers who are finding the perspectives presented valuable to inform their own thinking, it would be good to provide places for people who are seeking a better understanding to go to for further study.

I would like to ask each person who has investigated this in detail to close off with a list of reference material they consider sound and have found informative for their own study. A single post with a list of references is likely to have far greater value to those seeking insights than a hundred posts repetitively debating similar points back and forth.

@Verifyveritas76, are most of the fascinating quotations you keep coming out with from earlychristianwritings.com, or are there other sources that people should know about also?

@Mark C, do you have a specific translation you would consider more sound to link to, as requested by @Slumberfreeze?
You've also pointed us towards your own audio files a lot, but they are long and the insights are buried in hours of audio that most readers of this page won't have time to go through. Also, to be completely honest, the language and tone used in them about those who disagree with you also means that in some cases they are more likely to turn people away from your perspective rather than turn them towards your views. Your teachings are aimed at an audience who already accept your views on Torah, and will be less effective at persuading people who don't hold that perspective towards that viewpoint. For this reason, I would encourage you to seriously consider whose teachings you gained value from when you first came to this viewpoint, and link to those resources, rather than solely to your own material.

I look forward to reading these final comments. Please consider the tone of final posts, and present everything from a position of humility, considering Slumberfreeze's comment here, which was directed at those on one side of this issue but applicable to all.
In order for us to consider such a thing, we'd have to see that the strict Torah types could demonstrate the superiority of their doctrine (that they're totally not claiming) by seeing if they evidence the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, which is firstly pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
 
I would like to ask each person who has investigated this in detail to close off with a list of reference material they consider sound and have found informative for their own study.

I'm not sure if this counts, but I like blueletterbible.org . It's my go to source for looking up and tracking down words.

Also I like biblehub.com , which has a neat feature where it lists the same chapter from 5 different versions parallel to each other so I can pick out the precise wording that suits my argument.

That last part was meant as a joke.

I have no reference material like websites or articles on this subject that I can think of.
 
And they were "milk-drinkers."

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

It seems to me that Moses was the "milk" given to a people who were illiterate when it came to understanding God. From the passage in Hebrews 5, it seems the author is comparing the Melchizedek priesthood with the Mosaic priesthood as being "meat" (Melchizedek) and "milk" (Moses). God intended for them to be under a Melchizedek type priesthood as they came out of Egypt (Exodus 19:6) and yet when they proved they were not ready for "meat" because they couldn't obey His spoken word, He gave them a simplified version "milk" to show them the difference between the holy and profane which was the Levites (holy) in the midst of the people (profane). It wasn't until the fullness of time had come that God sent the Melchizedek with spoken instructions for the people (meat). Ever wonder why Jesus Christ never wrote anything? This was a deliberate contrast between Him and every other "prophet". And yet, we are to know, understand and follow everything that Jesus Christ said. (Meat)
 
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