LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

[PeteR]

So are you saying that Moses sent Christ? Doesn't fix anything. No one said abandon the good doctrine, but that it is within the Son of God who we are to follow.

You still haven't answered my question. Who interprets the Law for you?

Jesus only kept and taught Torah. He did not teach anything different than Moses.

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Deuteronomy 18:15‭-‬19 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/deu.18.15-19.NASB

There was nothing wrong with the Torah. It was and is perfect.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Surely you are smarter than this. The standard we will be judged by is not dependent on how well we can copy manuscript to manuscript. If it were that simple we could collect every known copy, burn it, call Yeshua a liar and declare there is no law to be judged by.

Totally missing the point.

Its like a story I heard about Sir Winston Churchill. In it, he asked another nobles wife if she’d have sex with him for a million pounds. When she indicated that she probably would, he then asked her if she would for 20 pounds. Highly offended, she asked him what he though she was, a whore? His response was that they’d already established that fact, the only thing not established was how much it was gonna cost him.

In like manner, the passage in question gives no doubt that the Law as they know it will have portions missing, either thru loss/change by its writings, loss/change by its verbal transmission or perhaps another type of loss/change or irrelevance that is divinely ordained and scheduled on a specific astronomical event. That’s the plain language of the text.

The debate before us is not if, but when.

Obviously God and his word are forever and forever powerful. However, your response ignores the fact that

1. we are judged by and held accountable by what we’ve been given. Romans 4:15. Where no law is, there is no transgression. And
2. Christ was not referring to an ephemeral Law that only God knows, but was referring explicitly to the Torah that they knew, held and studied. That was the source of their question, and his reply.

This Torah that they knew, held and studied, has been provably altered and amended, with obvious motive, and taught as such, making this a provable fulfillment of Christs words from the very plain reading of the text.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

This passage is often quoted on this forum but rarely in its’ context.

Romans 7:1-4 KJV
“[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

[2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

[3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

I’m a dead man. I was buried with Christ in His death through baptism. I am a new creation in Christ. The Law is good, If one uses it lawfully, the Law is perfect, but I am not under its’ ordnances because I am married to another now. The head of every man is Christ. The Law and the prophets are the shadow of Christ, but we now have the body that cast that shadow, Christ himself.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Scripture says that there will be a covenant with Israel and Judah. It never says anyone else. YHVH would specify if it was with another house (for example, the House of Esau, the House of Ishmael, etc).
Only 2 houses... So which are you in? Israel or Judah?

There’s several logical leaps in your statements. Also a conflation on who THE Israel is. Its the one that Jacob wrestled with and was subsequently named after. The nation of Israel/Ephraim can only claim that title because of their covenant with The Israel. My relationship with Him has nothing to do with them or their relationship with Him, just as it should be in a plural home.

Do both those houses have a special link to The Israel? Absolutely.

Your assumption that YHVH would specify if it was with anyone else seems to me to be a result of logical fallacies from silence as well as an incorrect understanding of family covenant structures.
There’s possibly other incorrect assumptions with that stance that passages like Isaiah 65:1 will clarify, as well as John 17:20, and Colossians 3:11

A husband publicly acknowledging existing independent covenants with multiple women does not restrict his abilities to add more independent covenants alongside the existing ones.

 

[PeteR]

Obviously God and his word are forever and forever powerful. However, your response ignores the fact that

1. we are judged by and held accountable by what we’ve been given. Romans 4:15. Where no law is, there is no transgression. And
2. Christ was not referring to an ephemeral Law that only God knows, but was referring explicitly to the Torah that they knew, held and studied. That was the source of their question, and his reply.

This Torah that they knew, held and studied, has been provably altered and amended, with obvious motive, and taught as such, making this a provable fulfillment of Christs words from the very plain reading of the text.

Inane response.

Great, so you can 'prove' half a sentence is missing. Well, we're still accountable for all that we have! The whole of the Torah. Where there IS law, there IS transgression.

Jesus, to be great in the Kingdom, teach and keep the commandments.

 

[PeteR]

I’m a dead man. I was buried with Christ in His death through baptism. I am a new creation in Christ. The Law is good, If one uses it lawfully, the Law is perfect, but I am not under its’ ordnances because I am married to another now. The head of every man is Christ. The Law and the prophets are the shadow of Christ, but we now have the body that cast that shadow, Christ himself.

So... now we have no law?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Inane response. Great, so you can 'prove' half a sentence is missing.

Yes, I can and did. Not just half a sentence. Multiple entire quotes from 3 separate places (in this thread). Simply to show that metrics given in the passage itself have been fulfilled by men who had no idea that while they were attempting to protect Judaism, they were unwittingly fulfilling Christs prophecy and installing a massive flashing caution light for any who would recognize what they did.

Well, we're still accountable for all that we have! The whole of the Torah. Where there IS law, there IS transgression.

Granted. The elephant in the room now is Original Torah? Or Masoretic? Are we accountable for sin that is only sin now because somebody jacked the original? And how do we know exactly what that is or what was changed? Or omitted?

FWIW, I’m not at all saying its impossible to find out, just saying that blindly following a Masoretic text is foolish.

 

[Cap]

Jesus only kept and taught Torah. He did not teach anything different than Moses.

There was nothing wrong with the Torah. It was and is perfect.

Apparently there was,

Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Moses didn't teach these things.

The elephant in the room now is Original Torah? Or Masoretic? Are we accountable for sin that is only sin now because somebody jacked the original? And how do we know exactly what that is or what was changed? Or omitted?

@PeteR I humbly ask again, who interprets the Law for you?

 

[PeteR]

FWIW, I’m not at all saying its impossible to find out, just saying that blindly following a Masoretic text is foolish.

Who is blindly following the Masoretic text? We can't even get the big stuff right like eating clean and keeping Shabbat.

 

[PeteR]

Moses didn't teach these things.

Sure he did. Yeshua pointed to the heart as the root... So did Moses: Lev. 19:17; Deut. 5:29; 6:6; 8:2, 14; 9:4; 10:16; etc... that's just a few from the Torah. God was very concerned with the heart.

@PeteR I humbly ask again, who interprets the Law for you?

The Holy Spirit does and He will never teach contrary to God's Law. (Just as Yeshua never taught contrary to God's Law.)

 

[Cap]

Sure he did. Yeshua pointed to the heart as the root... So did Moses: Lev. 19:17; Deut. 5:29; 6:6; 8:2, 14; 9:4; 10:16; etc... that's just a few from the Torah. God was very concerned with the heart.

The Holy Spirit does and He will never teach contrary to God's Law. (Just as Yeshua never taught contrary to God's Law.)

I'm sorry but you verses are a smoke screen, they are not about the commandments given in the new covenant, just explaintions about the fact the God cares about what's on each of our hearts.

If the Holy Spirit is your guide then how can He be telling one person to follow the old covenant Torah and another not to? Unless, both are exceptable. Do you agree that both are exceptable before God? Those who follow Torah and those who don't?

 

[Pacman]

Apparently there was,

Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Moses didn't teach these things.



@PeteR I humbly ask again, who interprets the Law for you?

I'm failing to see the conflict here. Obedience to Yeshua is obedience to Torah. So the answer is obey both.


“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Deuteronomy 18:15‭-‬19 NASB

 

[PeteR]

If the Holy Spirit is your guide then how can He be telling one person to follow the old covenant Torah and another not to? Unless, both are exceptable. Do you agree that both are exceptable before God? Those who follow Torah and those who don't?

Brother, I am not your judge. Be convinced in your heart and worry not about what I think.

I am convinced that God's Ways have never changed. He is the same yesterday, today, forever. When He said 'forever' and 'everlasting' I think He meant 'forever' and 'everlasting.'

Future prophecy from Isaiah 66:

15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord.

I kinda think that's important....

Same passage, also future prophecy:

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

I take that seriously.... Ignore at your own risk.

 

[Cap]

I'm failing to see the conflict here. Obedience to Yeshua is obedience to Torah. So the answer is obey both.


“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ The Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Deuteronomy 18:15‭-‬19 NASB

So you are saying that the Son of God can bring a greater inlightenment to the Law of the old covenant?

 

[Cap]

I take that seriously.... Ignore at your own risk.

You think I don't take this seriously?

This is were the problem exists between us. I am not willing to say you are at risk by your belief but you suggest I am at risk if I don't see it your way. How can we have anything in common if you believe I am going to hell if I don't do it your way?

 

[Pacman]

You think I don't take this seriously?

This is were the problem exists between us. I am not willing to say you are at risk by your belief but you suggest I am at risk if I don't see it your way. How can we have anything in common if you believe I am going to hell if I don't do it your way?

Bro it has been repeated over and over that we do not believe that you have to keep Torah to be saved. I actually don't personally know anyone who believes that. But it seems you cannot comprehend that statement.

 

[Pacman]

So you are saying that the Son of God can bring a greater inlightenment to the Law of the old covenant?

No I'm saying that even if he added an additional nuance (which he didn't) it would only mean we must obey that nuance as well. It is Torah command to obey the prophet that came... That's Yeshua.

 

[GunnarR]

You think I don't take this seriously?

This is were the problem exists between us. I am not willing to say you are at risk by your belief but you suggest I am at risk if I don't see it your way. How can we have anything in common if you believe I am going to hell if I don't do it your way?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
Nowhere in scripture does it prophecy of the changing of the Sabbath, being able to eat unclean food, etc. Either YHVH was lying when He said that, or people are reading their scriptures wrong. Just saying...

 

[Cap]

Bro it has been repeated over and over that we do not believe that you have to keep Torah to be saved. I actually don't personally know anyone who believes that. But it seems you cannot comprehend that statement.

Bro nothing in scripture even hints at Torah optional. .

I take that seriously.... Ignore at your own risk.

I am going to back out now because all this does is label me as a trouble maker.

I would prefer to talk about the book of Hebrews and it's meaning.

 

[Pacman]

This passage is often quoted on this forum but rarely in its’ context.

Romans 7:1-4 KJV
“[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

[2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

[3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

I’m a dead man. I was buried with Christ in His death through baptism. I am a new creation in Christ. The Law is good, If one uses it lawfully, the Law is perfect, but I am not under its’ ordnances because I am married to another now. The head of every man is Christ. The Law and the prophets are the shadow of Christ, but we now have the body that cast that shadow, Christ himself.

Since you brought up context...
What law did we become dead to? There is a hint in the very passage you quoted...