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Mail Order Brides

To clarify further, in your opinion, what obligations does a husband have to his wives?

That seems obvious to a tradition-minded person. Protect, provide, pleasure. There are also some things akin to raising a child, e,g, nurturing her talents, encouraging her, bringing fun and joy into her life. I suppose also, make her feel useful or needed. But I suppose the first three are the most important.

You can talk about teaching and leadership, and priesthood, but to me those fall under protection.

Now - why do you ask?
 
DealChief, you're certainly not the only divorced man here. Life is complex. And on this, we are in complete agreement: "Overall, my approach is ... Try to marry only women who can accept who I am."

Let me say right up-front - I'm happy you're here. I'm not trying to tell you to leave or anything like that. I see you as a man in need of advice on marriage, and with the humility to actually come to a place where he can receive that advice. This is awesome. The more difficulties I see in your past, the more glad I am that you are here. Because you are my brother, and I'd like to help you grow in YHWH. Also, I'm not perfect myself, and no doubt there will be some other issue where you'll be able to comment with some useful insight that I can learn from also. Welcome back to the forum.

The number of failed relationships you mention is much higher than that of most other men here. That's fine. That's why you're here, to seek advice and prayer as you have stated yourself. I'm not pointing this out to "judge" you or say you're "not good enough" or any such nonsense, I notice this as I try to understand the details of your approach so I can then offer helpful advice, please try and take it in that light. Because a single failure can just happen out of someone's control, but a string is a pattern that we can use to understand you and learn from.

As far as I can see, from the limited information I know about you, you're far quicker to jump into marriage than I would personally consider wise. You appear to have started marriages where commitment appeared to be being given, in words, but did not take the time to first work out whether it was likely to last. In some cases you saw it as a marriage but your wife did not. Marriage was started prematurely and ended equally prematurely - exactly in the pattern we see in secular culture, where relationships start too quickly and end equally fast. We can label it marriage if we like. But it is not the pattern intended by YHWH, because it is not a pattern that leads to the results He desires - lifelong commitment.

I did not suggest that you came here looking for a wife - but the thread you were most interested in and chose to comment on first is on mail order brides, and the content of your post indicates you have put a lot of thought into multiple ways of finding women. Your track record shows that you are well capable of finding them also. I'm not saying this is your intent coming here, but rather that this appears to be a strong focus of you personally. Nothing wrong with that in moderation, but coupled with your relaxed attitude towards divorce it too is a recipe for a string of failed marriages.

The other potential cause of your failed relationships is the very strong focus you have on a woman being her husband's servant. Again, scripturally correct - provided this is only one aspect of our understanding and held in the right balance, taken too strongly it is also a recipe for failure. For instance, a woman may very easily say "yes I accept polygyny". The words are easy. But then when the reality hits and you actually start looking for or dating another woman, she may find this far more difficult than she initially thought, or it may turn out she never fully meant it. What is a husband to do then? He could say "I have a right to be a polygynist, it's nothing to do with you, you agreed to it, just do what I say". He may have the right to do that - but she'll still leave, and he'll be either single or a monogamist with a new wife. On the other hand, he could pull back, focus on her, try and help her through her insecurities, act as a true shepherd knowing that he has obligations to support her but no obligations to the second woman yet as she's just a potential not a wife so she's less important. In doing this, which may take years, he may eventually end up with two happy wives, or even more. It's all a matter of focus.

The reason I asked about a husband's responsibilities to his wives is from this standpoint. I got the feeling your past relationships were far more about sex, from a range of your statements. Your response to my question shows that you know a husband's responsibilities at least theoretically, which is great. Do you put them into practice? Or do you focus on your rights, and focus on "lording it over her" rather than leading her as a gentle shepherd? Is your focus on what you can do for her, or on what she can do for you?
 
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DealChief, you're certainly not the only divorced man here. Life is complex. And on this, we are in complete agreement: "Overall, my approach is ... Try to marry only women who can accept who I am."

Let me say right up-front - I'm happy you're here. I'm not trying to tell you to leave or anything like that. I see you as a man in need of advice on marriage, and with the humility to actually come to a place where he can receive that advice. This is awesome. The more difficulties I see in your past, the more glad I am that you are here. Because you are my brother, and I'd like to help you grow in YHWH. Also, I'm not perfect myself, and no doubt there will be some other issue where you'll be able to comment with some useful insight that I can learn from also. Welcome back to the forum.

The number of failed relationships you mention is much higher than that of most other men here. That's fine. That's why you're here, to seek advice and prayer as you have stated yourself. I'm not pointing this out to "judge" you or say you're "not good enough" or any such nonsense, I notice this as I try to understand the details of your approach so I can then offer helpful advice, please try and take it in that light. Because a single failure can just happen out of someone's control, but a string is a pattern that we can use to understand you and learn from.

As far as I can see, from the limited information I know about you, you're far quicker to jump into marriage than I would personally consider wise. You appear to have started marriages where commitment appeared to be being given, in words, but did not take the time to first work out whether it was likely to last. In some cases you saw it as a marriage but your wife did not. Marriage was started prematurely and ended equally prematurely - exactly in the pattern we see in secular culture, where relationships start too quickly and end equally fast. We can label it marriage if we like. But it is not the pattern intended by YHWH, because it is not a pattern that leads to the results He desires - lifelong commitment.

I did not suggest that you came here looking for a wife - but the thread you were most interested in and chose to comment on first is on mail order brides, and the content of your post indicates you have put a lot of thought into multiple ways of finding women. Your track record shows that you are well capable of finding them also. I'm not saying this is your intent coming here, but rather that this appears to be a strong focus of you personally. Nothing wrong with that in moderation, but coupled with your relaxed attitude towards divorce it too is a recipe for a string of failed marriages.

The other potential cause of your failed relationships is the very strong focus you have on a woman being her husband's servant. Again, scripturally correct - provided this is only one aspect of our understanding and held in the right balance, taken too strongly it is also a recipe for failure. For instance, a woman may very easily say "yes I accept polygyny". The words are easy. But then when the reality hits and you actually start looking for or dating another woman, she may find this far more difficult than she initially thought, or it may turn out she never fully meant it. What is a husband to do then? He could say "I have a right to be a polygynist, it's nothing to do with you, you agreed to it, just do what I say". He may have the right to do that - but she'll still leave, and he'll be either single or a monogamist with a new wife. On the other hand, he could pull back, focus on her, try and help her through her insecurities, act as a true shepherd knowing that he has obligations to support her but no obligations to the second woman yet as she's just a potential not a wife so she's less important. In doing this, which may take years, he may eventually end up with two happy wives, or even more. It's all a matter of focus.

The reason I asked about a husband's responsibilities to his wives is from this standpoint. I got the feeling your past relationships were far more about sex, from a range of your statements.

All fairly stated. Trenchant observations. I am impressed.
+1

Your response to my question shows that you know a husband's responsibilities at least theoretically, which is great. Do you put them into practice? Or do you focus on your rights, and focus on "lording it over her" rather than leading her as a gentle shepherd? Is your focus on what you can do for her, or on what she can do for you?

Honestly I think that may be where I am apart from many churchgoing mainstream evangelicals. I have never had a "nice" woman. Only strong women, who responded to strength.

There was one nice woman, exactly one, when I was a teenager. Maybe she was 13, I was 15. American-born half Armenian like me, freckles, smile... Met her one week at summer camp. Should have pounced on that, but let it go. She was a nice person. Other than that, they generally need strength, and are attracted to it.

Had another, also Armenian, who I could laugh with, we were like kids together. But she did like to serve and even be bossed around a little. A break from her very responsible day job.

Back when I was raising children, I moved heaven and earth to please a demanding and self-centered (Southern) woman. I took a marriage that should have lasted 3 months and extended it to 20 plus years. I am on the fence about whether that was the right course. The children had an intact home, but saw their father put up with tantrums, fights, backtalk, insults, etc. I would not want to repeat that example. That is why I now believe in divorce as a man's option. At that time I didn't.

To sum up, I think the image of a kind and gentle shepherd is appealing, but requires a nice woman, not a self-centered brat.
 
Back when I was raising children, I moved heaven and earth to please a demanding and self-centered (Southern) woman. I took a marriage that should have lasted 3 months and extended it to 20 plus years. I am on the fence about whether that was the right course. The children had an intact home, but saw their father put up with tantrums, fights, backtalk, insults, etc. I would not want to repeat that example. That is why I now believe in divorce as a man's option. At that time I didn't.
This sort of sad experience of modern Western monogamy is far from unusual, and I really do see where you're coming from now. In that marriage, you may have veered to one side and become hen-pecked and controlled by your wife. As a very understandable reaction to that, you have swung in the opposite direction - possibly too far, I suspect, but completely understandably given this experience. There is a balanced line in the middle combining love and authority, that will result in marriages that are both functional and long-lasting. We are all somewhere one side or the other of that line, since none of us are perfect, yet should be seeking to find and reach it. It's not always obvious where it lies.
To sum up, I think the image of a kind and gentle shepherd is appealing, but requires a nice woman, not a self-centered brat.
I do think that the right shepherding approach (firm as well as kind) should in theory also change a self-centred brat. However I cannot speak from experience in that, because I am so careful to just select nice women that so far I've only married one, and have no brat-taming experience. If there are any experienced brat-tamers reading, feel free to comment! :-)

I must say that I consider one of the benefits of polygyny to be that a married man has less desperate physical urge to marry than a single man, because he can already satisfy his sexual desires with his wife. This means he has the freedom to be even more careful and slow about choosing a second, and has the ability to hold out only for "nice" women. Or, alternatively, to take the time to work on changing a brat before marrying her rather than bringing a chaotic and destructive element into his family in the hope of changing her through marriage.
 
,,, a brief "flirtation" in Mexico

When I say something is a flirtation, it's a flirtation.

I doubt you meet women on the street and just drag them into bed straightaway. I would guess that some period of flirtation and courtship precedes the actual consummation, yes? Well, it's the same with me. Especially when dealing with a young maiden. Your quotes around the word suggest that I was prevaricating, thus insulting to me.

Moreover, your implication also besmirches the honor of the young maiden involved, who never came to my house without a friend as chaperon.

I hope you will walk this back.
 
I think the word "flirtation" had different connotations to me than to you. Consider it a cultural thing. Clarification taken!
 
I think the word "flirtation" had different connotations to me than to you. Consider it a cultural thing. Clarification taken!

I don't know what kind of culture you would be from, where flirtation doesn't mean flirtation. I wasn't clarifying my words. I was correcting you.
 
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