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Mark, the long and short of it...

The divisive man, in Scripture, is the heretic. So, part of showing love is to earnestly contend for the Faith, the Gospel, and sound doctrine.
I've been described as a divisive Man. Am I a Heretic?;)

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about Torah, for they are unprofitable and useless.
Dismiss a quarrelsome person after a first and second warning, knowing that such a person is twisted and is sinning—he is self-condemned.

The truth is divisive.

Sometimes we forget there are weightier matters.
 
I've been described as a divisive Man. Am I a Heretic?;)

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about Torah, for they are unprofitable and useless.
Dismiss a quarrelsome person after a first and second warning, knowing that such a person is twisted and is sinning—he is self-condemned.

The truth is divisive.

Sometimes we forget there are weightier matters.
Weightier matters than truth?
 
The divisive man, in Scripture, is the heretic. So, part of showing love is to earnestly contend for the Faith, the Gospel, and sound doctrine.
Could you take a couple of minutes and relate that to what I said?
 
Weightier matters than truth?
Yes and no. Small picture truth and Big Picture Truth.

(Disclaimer: Someone is going to probably disagree with the Big Picture Truth Example. If you want to discuss it start a new thread.)

Small picture truth:

Big picture truths and little picture truths. I like most on this forum support polygyny. It would be easy in my meatworld ministry to exclusively focusing on making everyone understand its not a sin. Its not a salvation issue.

Big Picture Truth:

Teaching the understanding that the Rauch HaKodesh, The Father and The Son are all Facets of the One true God. That they testify to each other. That are all in agreement because they are one. The Nature of God. Divinity yet mortality of Yeshua. Salvation issue.
 
I'm out. This is a complete waste of time. That's a nice airtight bubble ya got there, AFMAMH. Enjoy!
 
Could you take a couple of minutes and relate that to what I said?
The debate over the "infallibiilty" of the "canon" is a red herring. Spend as much time as you will on it, but ultimately our Life is in the Spirit, and he who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. They will know we are His disciples by our love for one another, not by our conformity to creeds and the shibboleths of tradition....

I don’t understand why you would juxtapose love for one another and conformity to creeds, as if they are in opposition to one another. They will know we are christians by our love for one another, but if our love lacks contention for the truth, it has simply become niceness. Yeshua was kind and tender, but also drove the money changers out of the temple with a whip. He didn’t mince words when confronting falsehoods with truth, but he also spoke tenderly to those who where poor in spirit. What i was saying was that truth and love cannot be separated. Truth without love is a sounding brass, love without truth ceases to exist. God is both love and truth.

Did I misunderstand your point?
 
Who's Perry Stone? Should we follow him?
I'm not big on mega churches or those with million dollar plus ministries. From time to time some of the celebrity pastors says something that shocks me or hits me in a good way. Like when Chan said "If Jesus had a church in Simi Valley, mine would be bigger. People would leave His church to attend mine because I call for an easier commitment. I know better how to cater to people’s desires so they stick around. Jesus was never really good at that. He was the one who said, “He who loves father or mother … son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.” (Matt. 10:37 NIV) I’m much more popular than Jesus..." To me it shows that the Spirit still reveals truth. David Platt's Secret church and Radical series were a pleasant surprise. So I'm reserving judgement of the teachings he gives until I learn more about the man and what he says he beleives but I'm going to share a person's thoughts of Perry Stone I found on Google.

Perry Stone, an ordained Bishop with the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee),1 which is a charismatic Pentecostal denomination that affirms essentials doctrines such as the inspiration of the Bible, the Trinity, and salvation through Christ;2 however, much of what he propagates through his ministry is controversial and, at points, heretical.

Divine Healing through Communion and Prayer Cloths. Stone teaches that divine physical healings are normative for Christians. He teaches that healing can happen through daily communion in a book entitled The Meal That Heals: Enjoying Intimate Daily Communion with God (Charisma House, 2008). The book description on his Website says, “Through a daily, personal Communion service with God — right in your own home — you can experience spiritual renewal and physical healing in your life.”3

Stone appears to be arguing that if one takes daily communion that God will guarantee healing. This is a stronger statement then even Stone himself makes in his statement of faith when he says that “healing is provided for all through the sufferings of Christ.”4The frequency in which the Lord’s Supper is to be partaken is a secondary issue that Christians can debate but not divide (Please contact us again for additional information of the frequency of partaking in the Lord’s Supper).

Many who endorse modern-day prayer cloths — such as Stone in the above quote — reason that if you say God does not use prayer cloths, you are denying His power, as well as Scripture, for He used the handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul touched to heal the sick in Acts 19:11-12. However, this response is inappropriate for several reasons. First, despite many modern claims that people today possess the same prophetic or apostolic authority as Paul and the other apostles, the Scriptures do not support this claim. (Please access “Are There Apostles and Prophets Today?”, and “Fivefold Ministry Makes A Comeback” at our Web site for this information.) Second the text specifically indicates that “God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hand of Paul” (Acts.19:11, UNASB); therefore, this was not meant to be normative, or a regular occurrence. Third, God used these miracles as an evidence to attest to the unique role that Paul had as apostle to the Gentiles. Fourth, one must realize the cultural setting in which God worked these miracles through Paul. This miracle, along with the others in Acts 19, occurred around the town of Ephesus, which “was widely reputed for its trade in magic and the need for exorcisms and protection against evil spirits.”5 So strong was Ephesus’ connection to magic and superstition that the “phrase ‘Ephesian writings’ (Epheisa grammata) was common in antiquity for documents containing spells and magical formulae.”6 It is within this cultural setting that the original recipients and readers after the fact can see that one need not trust in pagan superstition or magic, but that our trust should be in the God of the Bible.

Therefore, no one is denying that God used handkerchiefs for some type of healing in the time of the apostles; however, these healings were not normative, but were usually done to illustrate an apostle’s authority and presence in a certain region, and were for a specific purpose.

God can and does heal. Many believe healing is provided for in the atonement but it is by no means guaranteed, as Stone suggest (see “Does God Always Heal?” and “Healing: Does God Always Heal?”).

Deliverance Spiritual Warfare. Stone also propagates an erroneous deliverance model of spiritual warfare. He communicates the idea that believers that harbor unforgivness can be tormented by demons. In regards to Matthew 18:35, he points out that “if you, as a believer, do not forgive a person who has wronged you, you’ll be delivered over to a tormentor,” but then goes on to say, “the example is King Saul — a tormenting spirit.”7 What Stone apparently missed was that the order of this event for King Saul was very important. The evil spirit didn’t torment King Saul until after the Holy Spirit left him. This is extremely important because the Bible says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). Also, demons cannot touch a believer because they have the Holy Spirit in them and they can’t coexist at the same time (John 8:49). The more accurate interpretation of Matthew 18:35 regarding forgiveness is that sin does separate us from God and others in a relation way. If we harbor unforgiveness towards others when we have been forgiven this will harm our relationship both with God and that other person.

Stone moreover affirms that Christians can be unduly influence by “generational patterns and spirits” in two CD’s he offers entitled “Reversing the Family Curse”8 and “Breaking Familiar Spirits”9. Although he does make the distinction that only the unsaved and not Christians can experience “generational curses,” the whole idea of generational curses is foreign to the biblical text.

There is no evidence in Scripture that demons are automatically transferred from one generation to another. We never see Jesus, Paul, or anyone else casting out generational spirits. Leviticus 20:6 and related passages speak of “familiar spirits” (NKVJ). These spirits are wrongly understood to mean a “family” spirit. Actually, the Hebrew word used here (‘ovb) refers to a python by whom people were believed to be possessed. In essence, it carries the meaning of a soothsaying demon.10 1 Samuel 28:7-11: Saul requests the medium of Endor to divine to him “by the familiar spirit” (v. 8, KJV). He then requests that Samuel be conjured up. Obviously, Saul did not consider Samuel to be a blood relative. Hence, the concept of “familiar” equals “family” spirit falls apart. Although it is true that the punishment of sin is carried on to future generations of haters of God (Exod. 20:5; 34:7; Num. 14:18), there is no evidence that the generational punishment necessarily consists of demonic possession or oppression. Yet, if children follow in the occultic practices of their parents, or if such parents dedicate their unregenerate children to the forces of darkness, then such possession or oppression is more likely.

Bible Codes. Stone also endorses the highly faulty concept of the Bible Codes, even championing himself as somewhat of trailblazer saying that “a decade before most Americans had ever heard of the Bible code, Perry had not only heard of it, but had begun informing churches about this now famous phenomena.”11The use of Bible Codes, while sensationalistic and fanciful, abandon sound methods of biblical interpretation, offer no new revelation to its practitioners, and comes directly out of the world of the occult (see “Magic Apologetics” and “Back to the Future? Does “Bible Code” offer New Clues to Coming Events?”)

Newspaper Eschatology. Stone practices “newspaper eschatology,” which involves lining up current events with certain passages from Scripture as a way of forecasting the time of Christ Second Coming, particularly the propagating of sensationalistic stories to establish Bible prophecy are presently being fulfilled in modern Israel. He purports to be one of the first Americans to confirm and publicize on the search for the ashes of the Red Heifer, as well as the first to present to the American people the ideas of “the earthquake fault line under the Mount of Olives, the huge birds of prey in the Golan, and the healing of the Dead Sea.”12 The Newspaper Eschatology, employed by Stone and many others, is a faulty method of interpreting Bible prophecy, which comes as the result of having a fundamental misunderstanding of how to read the Bible for all its worth. Although not addressing Stone’s teaching in particular, Hank Hanegraaff tackles the serous problem of Newspaper Eschatology in principle in The Apocalypse Code (Nelson, 2007), which is available through the Christian Research Institute. (For further information on the errors of newspaper eschatology please access “Apocalypse When? Why Most End-time Teaching Is Dead Wrong,” “D-Day Declarations”and “The Perils of Newspaper Eschatology.”)
 
I'm not big on mega churches or those with million dollar plus ministries. From time to time some of the celebrity pastors says something that shocks me or hits me in a good way. Like when Chan said "If Jesus had a church in Simi Valley, mine would be bigger. People would leave His church to attend mine because I call for an easier commitment. I know better how to cater to people’s desires so they stick around. Jesus was never really good at that. He was the one who said, “He who loves father or mother … son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.” (Matt. 10:37 NIV) I’m much more popular than Jesus..." To me it shows that the Spirit still reveals truth. David Platt's Secret church and Radical series were a pleasant surprise. So I'm reserving judgement of the teachings he gives until I learn more about the man and what he says he beleives but I'm going to share a person's thoughts of Perry Stone I found on Google.

Perry Stone, an ordained Bishop with the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee),1 which is a charismatic Pentecostal denomination that affirms essentials doctrines such as the inspiration of the Bible, the Trinity, and salvation through Christ;2 however, much of what he propagates through his ministry is controversial and, at points, heretical.

Divine Healing through Communion and Prayer Cloths. Stone teaches that divine physical healings are normative for Christians. He teaches that healing can happen through daily communion in a book entitled The Meal That Heals: Enjoying Intimate Daily Communion with God (Charisma House, 2008). The book description on his Website says, “Through a daily, personal Communion service with God — right in your own home — you can experience spiritual renewal and physical healing in your life.”3

Stone appears to be arguing that if one takes daily communion that God will guarantee healing. This is a stronger statement then even Stone himself makes in his statement of faith when he says that “healing is provided for all through the sufferings of Christ.”4The frequency in which the Lord’s Supper is to be partaken is a secondary issue that Christians can debate but not divide (Please contact us again for additional information of the frequency of partaking in the Lord’s Supper).

Many who endorse modern-day prayer cloths — such as Stone in the above quote — reason that if you say God does not use prayer cloths, you are denying His power, as well as Scripture, for He used the handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul touched to heal the sick in Acts 19:11-12. However, this response is inappropriate for several reasons. First, despite many modern claims that people today possess the same prophetic or apostolic authority as Paul and the other apostles, the Scriptures do not support this claim. (Please access “Are There Apostles and Prophets Today?”, and “Fivefold Ministry Makes A Comeback” at our Web site for this information.) Second the text specifically indicates that “God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hand of Paul” (Acts.19:11, UNASB); therefore, this was not meant to be normative, or a regular occurrence. Third, God used these miracles as an evidence to attest to the unique role that Paul had as apostle to the Gentiles. Fourth, one must realize the cultural setting in which God worked these miracles through Paul. This miracle, along with the others in Acts 19, occurred around the town of Ephesus, which “was widely reputed for its trade in magic and the need for exorcisms and protection against evil spirits.”5 So strong was Ephesus’ connection to magic and superstition that the “phrase ‘Ephesian writings’ (Epheisa grammata) was common in antiquity for documents containing spells and magical formulae.”6 It is within this cultural setting that the original recipients and readers after the fact can see that one need not trust in pagan superstition or magic, but that our trust should be in the God of the Bible.

Therefore, no one is denying that God used handkerchiefs for some type of healing in the time of the apostles; however, these healings were not normative, but were usually done to illustrate an apostle’s authority and presence in a certain region, and were for a specific purpose.

God can and does heal. Many believe healing is provided for in the atonement but it is by no means guaranteed, as Stone suggest (see “Does God Always Heal?” and “Healing: Does God Always Heal?”).

Deliverance Spiritual Warfare. Stone also propagates an erroneous deliverance model of spiritual warfare. He communicates the idea that believers that harbor unforgivness can be tormented by demons. In regards to Matthew 18:35, he points out that “if you, as a believer, do not forgive a person who has wronged you, you’ll be delivered over to a tormentor,” but then goes on to say, “the example is King Saul — a tormenting spirit.”7 What Stone apparently missed was that the order of this event for King Saul was very important. The evil spirit didn’t torment King Saul until after the Holy Spirit left him. This is extremely important because the Bible says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). Also, demons cannot touch a believer because they have the Holy Spirit in them and they can’t coexist at the same time (John 8:49). The more accurate interpretation of Matthew 18:35 regarding forgiveness is that sin does separate us from God and others in a relation way. If we harbor unforgiveness towards others when we have been forgiven this will harm our relationship both with God and that other person.

Stone moreover affirms that Christians can be unduly influence by “generational patterns and spirits” in two CD’s he offers entitled “Reversing the Family Curse”8 and “Breaking Familiar Spirits”9. Although he does make the distinction that only the unsaved and not Christians can experience “generational curses,” the whole idea of generational curses is foreign to the biblical text.

There is no evidence in Scripture that demons are automatically transferred from one generation to another. We never see Jesus, Paul, or anyone else casting out generational spirits. Leviticus 20:6 and related passages speak of “familiar spirits” (NKVJ). These spirits are wrongly understood to mean a “family” spirit. Actually, the Hebrew word used here (‘ovb) refers to a python by whom people were believed to be possessed. In essence, it carries the meaning of a soothsaying demon.10 1 Samuel 28:7-11: Saul requests the medium of Endor to divine to him “by the familiar spirit” (v. 8, KJV). He then requests that Samuel be conjured up. Obviously, Saul did not consider Samuel to be a blood relative. Hence, the concept of “familiar” equals “family” spirit falls apart. Although it is true that the punishment of sin is carried on to future generations of haters of God (Exod. 20:5; 34:7; Num. 14:18), there is no evidence that the generational punishment necessarily consists of demonic possession or oppression. Yet, if children follow in the occultic practices of their parents, or if such parents dedicate their unregenerate children to the forces of darkness, then such possession or oppression is more likely.

Bible Codes. Stone also endorses the highly faulty concept of the Bible Codes, even championing himself as somewhat of trailblazer saying that “a decade before most Americans had ever heard of the Bible code, Perry had not only heard of it, but had begun informing churches about this now famous phenomena.”11The use of Bible Codes, while sensationalistic and fanciful, abandon sound methods of biblical interpretation, offer no new revelation to its practitioners, and comes directly out of the world of the occult (see “Magic Apologetics” and “Back to the Future? Does “Bible Code” offer New Clues to Coming Events?”)

Newspaper Eschatology. Stone practices “newspaper eschatology,” which involves lining up current events with certain passages from Scripture as a way of forecasting the time of Christ Second Coming, particularly the propagating of sensationalistic stories to establish Bible prophecy are presently being fulfilled in modern Israel. He purports to be one of the first Americans to confirm and publicize on the search for the ashes of the Red Heifer, as well as the first to present to the American people the ideas of “the earthquake fault line under the Mount of Olives, the huge birds of prey in the Golan, and the healing of the Dead Sea.”12 The Newspaper Eschatology, employed by Stone and many others, is a faulty method of interpreting Bible prophecy, which comes as the result of having a fundamental misunderstanding of how to read the Bible for all its worth. Although not addressing Stone’s teaching in particular, Hank Hanegraaff tackles the serous problem of Newspaper Eschatology in principle in The Apocalypse Code (Nelson, 2007), which is available through the Christian Research Institute. (For further information on the errors of newspaper eschatology please access “Apocalypse When? Why Most End-time Teaching Is Dead Wrong,” “D-Day Declarations”and “The Perils of Newspaper Eschatology.”)

Actually @Kevin I was kidding. These are the guys that make spiritual things confusing, IMO.

Besides, anyone that shows up on TBN is a fraud, IMSO (in my spiritual opinion)

It would be these guys that give the charismatic movement a bad name. No wonder @Asforme&myhouse and @ZecAustin have a hard time with it.
 
God proved at Antioch that new signs and wonders are not necessary for conversion. Why aren’t they necessary? Because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Yet at other times He chose to use these 'unnecessary' signs and wonders and they led to conversions.

First of all, my book is authenticated by signs and wonders.

Surely you can see the problem with a book saying that it was itself confirmed by signs and wonders?

We haven’t seen anyone walking in signs and wonders like Yeshua or the Apostles

You may not see. But then you reject any you do see as false so thats a self fulfilling prophecy.

You’re tacitly “denying the power there of” with that question.

No, I'm just explaining the practical reality of a person's perspective. The truth of the matter is that God used in the past signs and wonders to bring people to faith, to get them to believe the message sent.

And that was a message presented by first hand witnesses not mere words in a book. If God felt it necessary or useful to use signs and wonders to bring people to faith in the past, why not now? There is no reason to deny the usefulness of that nor did God in the scriptures say that method would pass.

On a side note, I just noticed the church we recently started fellowshiping with has a pastor that teaches most Sundays, but he isn’t listed as “The Pastor” in the bulletin, he’s just listed as one of the elders and he’s like second or third on the list. I’ve never seen that in any church I’ve attended before and I thought that was kind of cool.

Ya that's not uncommon in certain circles.
 
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