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MGTOW A Culture Killer?
- Thread starter Nikud
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Well, whatever happened to judgement is mine sayeth the Lord?
Firstly, I am proudly MGTOW and married to my two beautiful wives, at it's core MGTOW is not about "hating" women at all, it's about understanding a female's biochemistry IE "Hypergamy" and realising into today's current legal regime that the government has on marriage with the ability of "no fault divorce" and the man commonly losing half his wealth, 'legal' marriage is just a very very very bad investment as women today have very little to no legal accountability in this gynocentric society.
Secondly, Actually MGTOW has many parallels with Scripture, that the man is ultimately responsible for himself and subject only to a Monarch, Democracy is a human institution not a Biblical one, and can be seen today with the unbalanced laws favoring women over men where as Scriptually, Man was created in God's image and woman was created of Man, which clearly created God's intended Hierachy between man and women, with the rise of democracy we can see more and more evil being legislated, for example the wanton murder of unborn children whilst still in the womb and the rise of Divorce.
Thirdly, the rise of MGTOW came about as a response to Feminism twisting the laws and pushing a matriachal society upon men, MGTOW does not have a problem with the traditional forms of marriage, and to claim that God's purpose was for man and woman to be mated, well this isn't really the case Peter the Apostle could have been seen as a MGTOW, choosing not to Marry... From what we read in Scripture, Jesus himself did not marry physically. So in no law is it Required that a man gets married, rather a man who choose not to marry could be a recipe for problems in the future.
Firstly, I am proudly MGTOW and married to my two beautiful wives, at it's core MGTOW is not about "hating" women at all, it's about understanding a female's biochemistry IE "Hypergamy" and realising into today's current legal regime that the government has on marriage with the ability of "no fault divorce" and the man commonly losing half his wealth, 'legal' marriage is just a very very very bad investment as women today have very little to no legal accountability in this gynocentric society.
Secondly, Actually MGTOW has many parallels with Scripture, that the man is ultimately responsible for himself and subject only to a Monarch, Democracy is a human institution not a Biblical one, and can be seen today with the unbalanced laws favoring women over men where as Scriptually, Man was created in God's image and woman was created of Man, which clearly created God's intended Hierachy between man and women, with the rise of democracy we can see more and more evil being legislated, for example the wanton murder of unborn children whilst still in the womb and the rise of Divorce.
Thirdly, the rise of MGTOW came about as a response to Feminism twisting the laws and pushing a matriachal society upon men, MGTOW does not have a problem with the traditional forms of marriage, and to claim that God's purpose was for man and woman to be mated, well this isn't really the case Peter the Apostle could have been seen as a MGTOW, choosing not to Marry... From what we read in Scripture, Jesus himself did not marry physically. So in no law is it Required that a man gets married, rather a man who choose not to marry could be a recipe for problems in the future.
Matthew 8:14 (NKJV) Now when Jesus had come into Peter's house, He saw his wife's mother lying sick with a fever.
Mark 1:30 (NKJV) But Simon's wife's mother lay sick with a fever, and they told Him about her at once.
Blessings
You're not MGTOW then... You're not doing the thing that defines them as different than the rest of the manosphere. Everything else you listed is problems the manosphere as a whole is aware of, but not specifically MGTOW.
You're not going your own way away from women if you have women.
Of course democracy is evil, no question about that. But we are to submit ourselves to each other, to elders, to saints who have proven their ministry, to governors and kings, and of course to God. And by 'we' I mean gentlemen here, of course women have to submit to their father or husband.
Radical individualism is part of why we're in a democratic age, if you reject democracy but embrace individualism you've not seen where the issues are coming from. The evil is being legislated beacause of this kind of individualism and view of self-sovereignty. Democracy is ruling because of nonsense propositions about individualism and egalitarianism. If we embrace that kind of individualism we're not pushing back against the democratic age.
Lets not assign depth to things that don't have it. To most people 'traditional marriage' means 'not same sex marriage'. And MGTOW isn't going to be talking about Gods purpose at all, it's not a Christian movement and its antithetical to Christian life and is constantly rebuffed by the Christian manosphere.
Of course you don't have to get married. But merely not marrying is not being MGTOW.
Eventually we're going to have to get around to defining terms in a culture that resists such efforts. I suppose there's some ambiguity around what "men going THEIR OWN way" means. I confess that my very casual acquaintance with the subculture has me picturing the kind of guy that has given up on women because he has given up on the matriarchal law order and culture. On a spectrum of FPS games to PUA, there would be some nerdy guys that are into video games and maybe porn, some more macho guys that are mostly into getting laid and bragging about it to their friends, and in the middle a bunch of guys that just do their own thing and occasionally try to get lucky or maybe even fumble their way into 'a relationship. So for me, so far, being "proudly MGTOW" and "married to my two beautiful wives" presents as a paradox, yet I get what Xexonix is saying and will make room for that in my brain.
Then there's the criticism voiced above (that seems a little strong for my taste) that all MGTOW advocates are specifically shaking their fist at God, and proclaiming that they have rejected any kind of rule whatsoever. I get the concern that's being expressed, but that has not been my experience IRL. The MGTOW focus seems to me to be more on women and matriarchy, and the difference between being a self-actualized man (including disciples of Christ) and being a wage slave on the federal plantation, whose primary purpose is to provide child support dollars and/or taxes for subsidies to single women.
The main thing here (my $.02, and I'm going to be sounding this note across different threads) is that we all aim for "this is the way I see it, tell me how you see it and why" as opposed to "this is how I see it, and if you see it differently you suck". I think the acronym MGTOW covers too much territory and has too much emotional loading to be much use unless we're all really careful to specify what we're referring to and what our experiences have been that have led us to our opinions/assessments/judgments.
This is the way I see it:
The body of knowledge that goes towards "understanding females" that Xexonix and others refer to is more broadly termed the "red pill" (a la The Matrix), though one has to be careful with this term, because it is also overloaded to refer to other ideas outside the Overton window. This term is used on for example, Reddit. As with any body of human knowledge, discernment is required. There is some good, some bad, and a lot of ugly. In some ways, it seems that much of this knowledge was once cultural common sense that has been lost through denial, and rediscovering it can be an important antidote to egalitarianism and feminism.
The embodiment of this knowledge online is the "manosphere".
What differs is people's reaction to this knowledge.
The PUAs react by honing the art of Game, and selfishly taking advantage of it to lifehack their way into using and throwing away as many women as they can. I don't need to say this is despicable.
The MGTOW reaction is a rational cost-benefit analysis which decides to abandon ship, and to convince as many others that they should also abandon ship. This may seem less actively harmful than PUAs, but it still leaves the ship without a captain.
Then there are the political activists, known as MRA's, which are concerned with raising awareness of men's issues, such as prostate cancer, lack of male domestic abuse shelters, etc... This isn't bad in and of itself -- there are real problems here that need to be adressed -- but sometimes (IMO) it can sit uncomfortably close to the same self-victimization tactics that feminists use.
Then there's also the Christian approach to the red pill, which tries to get back to biblical principles. Sites like Dalrock, Deepstrength, and BiblicalGenderRoles fit into this, as does this site (whether you like it or not). Of course, there are some disagreements as to exactly what those principles are -- poly being a prime example. Another would be the acceptability of the responsible use of Game within courtship/marriage.
The body of knowledge that goes towards "understanding females" that Xexonix and others refer to is more broadly termed the "red pill" (a la The Matrix), though one has to be careful with this term, because it is also overloaded to refer to other ideas outside the Overton window. This term is used on for example, Reddit. As with any body of human knowledge, discernment is required. There is some good, some bad, and a lot of ugly. In some ways, it seems that much of this knowledge was once cultural common sense that has been lost through denial, and rediscovering it can be an important antidote to egalitarianism and feminism.
The embodiment of this knowledge online is the "manosphere".
What differs is people's reaction to this knowledge.
The PUAs react by honing the art of Game, and selfishly taking advantage of it to lifehack their way into using and throwing away as many women as they can. I don't need to say this is despicable.
The MGTOW reaction is a rational cost-benefit analysis which decides to abandon ship, and to convince as many others that they should also abandon ship. This may seem less actively harmful than PUAs, but it still leaves the ship without a captain.
Then there are the political activists, known as MRA's, which are concerned with raising awareness of men's issues, such as prostate cancer, lack of male domestic abuse shelters, etc... This isn't bad in and of itself -- there are real problems here that need to be adressed -- but sometimes (IMO) it can sit uncomfortably close to the same self-victimization tactics that feminists use.
Then there's also the Christian approach to the red pill, which tries to get back to biblical principles. Sites like Dalrock, Deepstrength, and BiblicalGenderRoles fit into this, as does this site (whether you like it or not). Of course, there are some disagreements as to exactly what those principles are -- poly being a prime example. Another would be the acceptability of the responsible use of Game within courtship/marriage.
Very well structured, Shibboleth. Regardless of whether each of us individually agrees with your assessment, you've laid it out very helpfully. For my part, that's the way I see it, too.
Slight tweak: Everybody knows that "matrix" is Latin for "womb", right? (Think of 'matriculate' from a college as being 'born' into the world....) I normally think of 'red pill' as having more to do with a general enlightenment to the culture of deceit that imprisons us (so wouldn't necessarily limit it to 'understanding females'), but even that movie title and the horrifying image of physical bodies floating in tanks/uteruses while their minds are being played has its feminine edge to it....
Slight tweak: Everybody knows that "matrix" is Latin for "womb", right? (Think of 'matriculate' from a college as being 'born' into the world....) I normally think of 'red pill' as having more to do with a general enlightenment to the culture of deceit that imprisons us (so wouldn't necessarily limit it to 'understanding females'), but even that movie title and the horrifying image of physical bodies floating in tanks/uteruses while their minds are being played has its feminine edge to it....
Good stuff on all sides.
It's taken from a verse about vengeance and twisted to make a statement usally used to shame a person while simultaneously judging them.
Rom. 12: 19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the L-rd
Deuteronomy 32:35
Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;
Their foot shall slip in due time;
For the day of their calamity is at hand,
And the things to come hasten upon them
Scripture tells us not only to forgive but to judge aswell.
Psa 37:30
The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment."
Amos 5:14-15
"Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the L-RD, the G-d of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the L-RD G-d of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph."
Isaiah 59:8:
"The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace."
Heres what Jesus said about judgement.
John 7: 24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
I already gave my reasons for my harsh judgement and why I lump the various groups together. I also stated that it's my opinion, so take it for what you will.
BTW if find it hilarious you make a statement condemning the judging of others in the defense of MGTOW. Which does what?
Reconciling MGTOW philosophy with Christian beleifs reminds me of those who think that you can combine Buddhism and Christianty. There's some parallels but diffrent sources where the beleifs come from. One comes a source of truth, the other from a beleif that man can will himself into a better state there for a lie. We're all free to believe and accept what we choose to beleive. It's the view most people up to when it comes to choosing a church. We choose to attend one that we accept what they say we should believe. We say (well some of us) we want to get away from the hypocritical, bias wrong teachings of the modern church. Which conforms to what ever societal movement is prevalent at the time. How is accepting any part of MGTOW, PUA, The Game or what ever any diffrent? I wish y'all the best of luck with the reconciling and capitulating to a societal belief system that is antithesis to patriachy.
Part of the confusion is we are using terms to try and describe a broad, ever changing movement and the subsets within it. These movements shift, and people move from one to another. Some people are MGTOW for a time while they come to terms with their eyes being opened to the truth about the sexes and work on self improvement but eventually go into a relationship with a woman. Others may have their awakening after marriage and choose to stay there while minimizing contact with other females.
All of these movements are loose and fractured, more or less revolving around popular teachers. They are not fixed defined things because they are organic groupings of people who are developing new belief systems in real time.
Christians may be uncomfortable with some or all parts of the movement but they are gaining traction, not just because they're in response to real unjustice in the world, but because they are rediscovering truths which the church has discarded as it turned to the worship of women.
All of these movements are loose and fractured, more or less revolving around popular teachers. They are not fixed defined things because they are organic groupings of people who are developing new belief systems in real time.
Christians may be uncomfortable with some or all parts of the movement but they are gaining traction, not just because they're in response to real unjustice in the world, but because they are rediscovering truths which the church has discarded as it turned to the worship of women.
Like "woman's right to choose" even though there is a father who contributed to that situation?
There are not many that go for the pro-choice thing; I'm talking much broader, more systemic issues. It is a whole topic into itself.
The churches worship of women touches a lot of different areas and depths. But with respect to MGTOW one of the big ones is men realizing that women aren't actually perfect saints that are more moral and spiritual than men. In fact the truth is the very opposite, and the scriptures testify to this as well.
This is the critical piece of information that I think MGTOW gets right and if someone has to move through MGTOW to pick it up then I'm okay with that but I don't think we can stay there and MGTOW will never be our natural allies.
Look, Men Going Their Own Way is nit the same thing as men going their own way. MGTOW is a clearly defined movement that does not have room in it for us. Many of them look on us "cucks" as traitors who literally sleep with the enemy or at best mindless drones. It's not an intellectual home for a patriarch.
I don't think it as well defined as you would have it. I have even seen Christians identify as MGTOW. But no, modern polygamists would not be in it.
But MGTOW and polygamists should be natural bedfellows. Multiple wives implies someone going without a woman, preferably willingly. And MGTOW is not a long term solution, humanity still needs reproduction; and artificial wombs is a foolish and dangerous pipedream.
MGTOW does well highlighting the problems in modern society and putting existential pressure on women. What is lacking throughout the entire mens movement is a doable proposal for marriage 3.0. Polygamy offers the potential of a patriarchal family that can do a better job of leading wives, raising non-damaged daughters, and offering men an optimistic alternative to the current dichotomy of sleeping around vs. dead bedrooms.
If anything, MGTOW needs to be a potential culture killer. The culture is diseased and dieing anyway. It either needs to die and be replaced or be faced with an existential threat that leads to repentance. I would prefer it be modern monks than cataclysmic disease or war. We really are living out Isaiah in many ways. Right now the only viable alternative on the table is the Muslims and Mormons taking over. And thats not my idea of a bright future.
But MGTOW and polygamists should be natural bedfellows. Multiple wives implies someone going without a woman, preferably willingly. And MGTOW is not a long term solution, humanity still needs reproduction; and artificial wombs is a foolish and dangerous pipedream.
MGTOW does well highlighting the problems in modern society and putting existential pressure on women. What is lacking throughout the entire mens movement is a doable proposal for marriage 3.0. Polygamy offers the potential of a patriarchal family that can do a better job of leading wives, raising non-damaged daughters, and offering men an optimistic alternative to the current dichotomy of sleeping around vs. dead bedrooms.
If anything, MGTOW needs to be a potential culture killer. The culture is diseased and dieing anyway. It either needs to die and be replaced or be faced with an existential threat that leads to repentance. I would prefer it be modern monks than cataclysmic disease or war. We really are living out Isaiah in many ways. Right now the only viable alternative on the table is the Muslims and Mormons taking over. And thats not my idea of a bright future.
I meant the broader culture's worship of women in that any choice they make to abort is sacrosanct and infallible. I wasn't linking that to MGTOW.
Much of what you say is exactly right but I do agree with Kevin that we as Christians shouldn't identify ourselves as MGTOW, a movement who's main statement seems to me to be a modern translation of the phrase, "But Lord the woman who you gave me..."
I think the best summary of MGTOW, is don't ever give a woman LEGAL access to your Wealth and Estate because that is more than likely a ticking time bomb.
Sorry I haven't figured out how to do quotes yet, Grey, the fact I am married to two women is BECAUSE of MGTOW teachings, the biggest issue with monogamy today is the loss of classical roles of dominance and hypergamy the two main driving forces between man and woman as per our biochemical makeup, MGTOW teaches that Hypergamy is undesirable and thus don't get married, and I believe this is very accurate IF you are trying to make monogamy work, in this day and age. However, I believe that God in His Wisdom allows a Poly man to use Hypergamy (a female driver) to help our wives keep EACHOTHER in check, considering it is no longer acceptable for a man to use the back of his hand to do so...
It is very interesting theory, one which is better discuss vocally, so if you anyone would like to discuss this further, Skype is always a good answer....
Sorry I haven't figured out how to do quotes yet, Grey, the fact I am married to two women is BECAUSE of MGTOW teachings, the biggest issue with monogamy today is the loss of classical roles of dominance and hypergamy the two main driving forces between man and woman as per our biochemical makeup, MGTOW teaches that Hypergamy is undesirable and thus don't get married, and I believe this is very accurate IF you are trying to make monogamy work, in this day and age. However, I believe that God in His Wisdom allows a Poly man to use Hypergamy (a female driver) to help our wives keep EACHOTHER in check, considering it is no longer acceptable for a man to use the back of his hand to do so...
It is very interesting theory, one which is better discuss vocally, so if you anyone would like to discuss this further, Skype is always a good answer....
Biblical patriarchy, also known as Christian patriarchy, is a set of beliefs defined through scripture concerning gender relations and their manifestations in institutions, including marriage, the family, and the home. It sees the father as the head of the home, responsible for the conduct of his family.
It appears your following the ideas espoused from patriarchy, not MGTOW. MGTOW is anti-marriage.
The culture it's killing is the floundering culture that tries to uphold biblical principal. Its the culture that believes in Patriarchy that is on life support. MGTOW like Feminism wants to do away with marriage because they both see it as oppressive for diffrent reasons. As for modern culture being diesaed and dying. We all know that modern culture is all about apperance in some form. How people appear to others has become more important to society than how we treat others, what we believe or what we do. Gold and jade on the out side, rot and decay on the inside. Sooner or later its going to colapse. If Biblical principled men go the way of MGTOW and accept its philosophy what are we left with after the colapse.
Highlight the section you want to quote, then click on reply.
Agreed. I don't think we should identify with anything beyond Christ; though that gets me in trouble with a lot of denominational folks.
To me it is about balance. You are very right, it is a lot like Adam's objection in Genesis. But I also have to admit that, while the temptations of women are universal, there is something uniquely worse about modern women in America due to the present circumstances.