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MGTOW A Culture Killer?

Exodus 21:10-11

If he takes to himself another woman, he is not to reduce her food, clothing or conjugal rights.If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing,


This is my understand of it. A man is accountable for every woman under his authority, a man must make sure her food and clothing are at least equal to what it was for her before she was under his authority. If he can't let it be reduced then he must provide it.

So if you read that whole passage again you'll see that it us speaking about a very specific situation, a servant girl that one has bought. If applied to all wives He wouldn't have narrowed it down to that one case.

Now men are required to provide for their families but that's all the way in Paul's writings. He says a man who won't provide for his family is worse than an infidel and not of the true faith. But that's not what we think of as The Law.

If we're going to take scripture literally and use God's definitions then we have to do so consistently. There is no Biblical command not to reduce a regular wife's portion and there is no command in the Mosaic Law to provide for your wife.
 
Catholics teach "premarital-sex" as one of those things you just don't do ever, at all, period, end of story, full stop. Well, they do teach that it is a "mortal sin". Again it is my impression that the Protestants teach "premarital-sex" more as something you should really try to avoid. The Protestants are not quite as homogeneous as the Catholics, so there might be a greater variation

From my experience, outside the homeschooling communities, I wouldn't expect many to truly avoid premarital sex; Protestant or Catholic.

You are right, Protestants are quite varied. But so too are Catholics with quite a large cafeteria problem. Most Protestants teach premarital sex is a sin. But almost zero of them enforce it in any way. They'll rail against it all day long from the pulpit while refusing to chaperon women, encouraging the youth to delay marriage and looking the other way while they date around or date exclusively for long periods of time.

There are a few exceptions but most American Christians follow the culture with respect to matting patterns.
 
However in divorce we see that 70-90% of the time it is the wife violating her oath. Neither the OT nor the NT allowed women to divorce; but did allow men to. Now we know why.

Something around 70% is the most commonly reported statistic. The 90% one came from a study that asked the women. It seems some % of women convince their husbands to file. Some of that may be by mutual agreement but I think a lot of it is women intentionally driving him to do it.

I know it is common to place the blame on men when women file for divorce but keep two things in mind. First, divorce is not a scriptural option for the women. Second, only about 40% of men cheat on their wives; and a lot of that may be happening in the death throws of the relationship. How many of those could be avoided if women embraced polygamy or even just quit denying their husbands sex?

edit: some of my comment got cut off for some reason. I looked for 90% study but couldn't find it. Though I did find a lay sociologist who discussed this affect in depth. The 70% number is better founded, which is why I put the number as a range. Why people divorce and who is at fault is a complex subject as people's reasons change as they go through the processes and they don't always honestly report their reasons.
 
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Half a lifetime ago (he said defensively) I filed after being told that she just could not live with me any longer.
So yeah, the guy filed but it was decided by the woman.
 
So if you read that whole passage again you'll see that it us speaking about a very specific situation, a servant girl that one has bought. If applied to all wives He wouldn't have narrowed it down to that one case

ZecAustin said:
the reference is the scripture that clearly identifies the exact type of woman being addressed. It starts off describing her status and nothing in that whole passage can be read to be blowing it up to a general statement on marriage. It applies to a woman who has been sold by her father for the purposes of being a wife to either her purchaser or his son; purchaser's choice.
The last quote was from Divorced: Abandoned, Put Away or Kicked to the Curb

Exodus 22:17

If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he will weigh out money according to the bride price for the virgin.

Exodus 22:16

If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged and he lies with her, he surely will give her bride price {to have her as his wife}.

Deuteronomy 22:29

29 He is to pay her father the bride price of fifty pieces of silver, and she is to become his wife, because he forced her to have intercourse with him. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I may be mistaken but under the Law was not a bride price established. Men paid a bride price for a woman, who was sold by her father for the purposes of being a wife to either her purchaser or his son; purchaser's choice. Which would mean there's no such thing as a regular wife.
 
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I don't know @ZecAustin . I agree about the absence of a decree, and I don't want to get all wispy washy with applications, but if a man isn't to deny those things after he takes a concubine, servant, wife, whatever, wouldn't it imply that those things belonged to her before the new one arrived?

Hmmmm. I'm Gonna have to think and study that one out again,
 
So if you read that whole passage again you'll see that it us speaking about a very specific situation, a servant girl that one has bought. If applied to all wives He wouldn't have narrowed it down to that one case.
I don't know @ZecAustin . I agree about the absence of a decree, and I don't want to get all wispy washy with applications, but if a man isn't to deny those things after he takes a concubine, servant, wife, whatever, wouldn't it imply that those things belonged to her before the new one arrived?

FWIW, William Luck, in his book, makes an argument from the lesser to the greater, namely, that if this is the requirement for even a servant girl, surely it's at least the minimum requirement for a full-blown wife.
 
It seems like we've hashed this out one before somewhere but if it applied to all wives He would of just said wives and not singled out that specific category.

Remember that wives are called to submit to their husbands as the church does to Christ, even to the point of laying down their lives so guaranteeing them a certain level of providence that they can demand and conceivably seek some kind of enforcement of doesn't fit the metaphor or square with scripture.

Now I think it's a really good idea and I would counsel any man to follow it but this passage is about giving a little protection to an especially vulnerable category of people. It's not, in my humble opinion, a general rule about marriage.
 
Remember that wives are called to submit to their husbands as the church does to Christ,
:eek:That specific situtituation wasn't layed out under Torah though it came after the Messiah.
If we're going to take scripture literally and use God's definitions then we have to do so consistently.
There is no Biblical command that wives are called to submit to their husbands as the church does to Christ, in the Mosaic Law.;)
 
Ouch! Kevin getting the submission choke hold out?

What's the next move Zec? No tag teams here.

Ha ha! All in good fun.

So, take my approach and see no contradiction between Law and NT.......they both apply....equally:D. Problem solved.
 
I contend that this particular topic is one that was typically regulated more by cultural norms and was only briefly touched on in very limited ways Scriptually.

For example, as I read through Josephus' account around the time of Christ, I was surprised that divorce by the woman was not unheard of nor was it considered anathema and was common enough that in the examples he gave it wasn't a huge deal. In contrast, Scripture is silent on this aspect of divorce during the same era.

So, is the correct interpretation on the matter that because it is omitted from Scripture it must not have existed?
Or perhaps Scripture is silent on the issue because there was already cultural precedent and norms that governed the issue and consequently Scripture only records issues/anomalies that were unclear in the cultural norms resulting in the scribes etc wishing clarity on specific issues from this man Jesus.

If they had asked Him about a woman divorcing her husband, we wouldn't be having this conversation because the answer would have been recorded.
The legal opinions and history of the period substantiate that a woman could indeed divorce her husband and yet Scripture and more importantly Christ is silent on it.
 
I wasn't even looking for this, and perhaps it's not the most perfect example, but I started to continue my way thru Judges and just happened to be at chapter 19.

It gives the story of a woman who is categorized as a concubine (which most of us would agree was a specific kind of a wife) who left her husband to return to her fathers house and after 4 months the husband comes to "speak friendly" to her to convince her to come back home.

Is this a woman "divorcing" her husband? In the sense that she was entitled to her dowry and using the legal remedy of a divorce document to sue for its return? Probably not. As a concubine, she would have probably come into the marriage sans dowry so her "divorce" would have entailed not much more than returning home to Papa.

It's interesting that the husbands approach doesn't seem to imply that he had any rights over her and that she had the final say if she returned.
 
Well, this thread people thought would die is now three threads. One on provision, one solely about MGTOW, and a further one about divorce :D

Thats fun.

Oh, and the legitimacy of Jasher is in the mix too. My how it's grown.

On Isaiah

They can't even have been offering to waive the 'shall not diminish' law, as that law protects existing wives and isn't part of the negotiation for new ones.

Talking about having enough income is almost anachronistic when we're talking about a pre-urbanized culture.

So many parts about this discussion just don't fit into a modern, urban, post-industrial, fiat, economy. Does he not have enough head of cattle to feed his family? He can hunt. Realistically he could have next to no income but still be wealthy in grain and goods stores, or he may have little but is able to fish or hunt more and so provide food.

The bigger thing is that there was no such thing as polygamy as we think about it in scripture. The New Testament just barely came in the same time-frame as the Roman ideal of Monogamy. The women can hardly be repenting by polygamy if polygamy is not unusual. They're merely desperate.

I agree in a sense accepting polygyny can be a way to repent of feminism. But the very act of seeing singleness as a shame, being an unmarried women who is not devoted to the church, that is quite enough. The polygyny view would be an extreme repentance I think. It could be done.

MGTOW is wrong about women marrying for provision. They marry for headship, for intimacy, for sheer attraction. But rarely do they marry for provision. As I've been saying women have always been able to work and provide for themselves. Women who marry only for provision are often vilified even by secular women. Gold digger is still a slur, even when slut isn't.

Women are weaker, but not incapable. And as I said before the '50s culture that opposed women producing anything other than the increasingly easy work of maintaining a household is part of what got us here in the first place. It's wrong. Set her hands to work on productive things and she'll be happier than if you keep her like a porcelain doll on a shelf. She's made to help, so set to to whatever she is good at helping with.

The OT requirement is not to reneg your contract. If you agree that a woman receives x portion of food and y portion of clothing and z amount of housing and sex you can't reduce any of those things to provide for a new woman. The contractual part of marriage comes out more when we start talking about pastoral cultures of the Old Testament. But as I said before, it doesn't really matter if the first wife sheered the sheep and knit the clothing all by herself or if you did. Her production goes to your household. If you agreed she gets one piece of clothing every two weeks thats what she's entitled too, if she creates four articles of clothing in that time and you take two of them for another wife or to sell them or one is made for you and you wear it that is fulfilling your provision to her. This too is part of being master of a household. The larger part in fact. We produce as much or more than anyone else, but our main responsibility is to organize, allocate, and plan.

We don't think like masters of a household when we get away from this. We think of ourselves as the servant primarily when we say that a man should be the one who produces all the food and wealth and she just cooks a bit and tosses dirty things in machines to take care of them. We made ourselves servants, thus as you say women and children are our masters.

You're right about repentance.
 
I wasn't even looking for this, and perhaps it's not the most perfect example, but I started to continue my way thru Judges and just happened to be at chapter 19.

It gives the story of a woman who is categorized as a concubine (which most of us would agree was a specific kind of a wife) who left her husband to return to her fathers house and after 4 months the husband comes to "speak friendly" to her to convince her to come back home.

Is this a woman "divorcing" her husband? In the sense that she was entitled to her dowry and using the legal remedy of a divorce document to sue for its return? Probably not. As a concubine, she would have probably come into the marriage sans dowry so her "divorce" would have entailed not much more than returning home to Papa.

It's interesting that the husbands approach doesn't seem to imply that he had any rights over her and that she had the final say if she returned.
Interesting
 
MGTOW is wrong about women marrying for provision. They marry for headship, for intimacy, for sheer attraction. But rarely do they marry for provision. As I've been saying women have always been able to work and provide for themselves. Women who marry only for provision are often vilified even by secular women. Gold digger is still a slur, even when slut isn't.

Ideally women want to marry for all those things. But rarely does one man check all the boxes and when he does, its harder still to get commitment. As they enter their 30's and above things start going out the window. Many marry someone their not attracted to all that much but who is a friend and able to provide. These same women later often 'get bored' or 'grow apart' or 'love you but not in love with you' and fly the coop.
 
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