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Must a deacon be monogamous? What does Greek heis/mia/en mean here?

The other requirements in Timothy are requirements of any given follower of God
Mmm.. I'm not sure about that; in Timothy....
1) he is obliged to be married. I am not sure this applies to all men.
2) the Bishop should be "Not given to wine". What does that mean vs. the deacon "not given to much wine"? We can compare those against Yeshua producing some 135 gallons of excellent wine at a wedding. Who takes just a sip at a wedding?

If I misunderstood your point, and responded to something you didn't say, please accept my apologies.
 
Seriously, can someone explain why these positions require such a stipulation, in regards to wives, when it is clear that God himself does not hold to that standard, or require pastors or leaders of a church. And for us PM people, is not a requirement for the Son of God? What is so special about these positions? The other requirements in Timothy are requirements of any given follower of God, really so the ONE wife thing is odd in my mind.

Two big reasons.

1) Someone who lacked the wisdom and skill to keep his first life is much more unlikely to give good advice to others. This goes along with ruling his house well and keeping children under control. This is the main reason.

2) IF it does mandate monogamy, a man with multiple wives will be much more busy with them and concerned about pleasing them. This goes along with 1 Cor 7. Although I'd be interested to hear from @andrew if he thinks additional wives provide more or less time for ministry given the extra help they represent.
 
Although I'd be interested to hear from @andrew if he thinks additional wives provide more or less time for ministry given the extra help they represent.
Brilliant catch, @rockfox, and I'd like to deal with that one once and for all. I can't believe I'm just now seeing this.

If we're doing it right, our families (household economies) should run like well-oiled machines. To say that a plural husband would be 'too busy to be an elder' reflects a lot of assumptions about family life that are grounded in the mess our culture raises us on that sees wives and children as a financial and emotional drain. And what about other kinds of responsibility? Would we say that a senior corporate executive, or a monogamous guy who runs his own business with 10 employees, is 'too busy' to be an elder (when they could easily be working 80 hour weeks)? Then how does the size of one's family necessarily make one 'too busy'?

All of my relationships grew out of co-laboring in ministry (Cheryl - worship, Ginny - youth/family, Ann - street outreach), and 'doing ministry together' is a huge part of who we are as a family (as anyone who has been to a big retreat where the whole family is the electric worship band knows). I call bs on the 'plural men are too busy to eld' argument.

That leaves cultural context as the 'last argument standing' for one-and-only-one wife—an argument I am personally open to but don't necessarily accept. Yet. I still think either first or a makes more sense from a 'whole counsel of scripture' view. (Really? David could be king but not pastor ? Seriously?) And I know some people don't want to open the can of worms that says anything in scripture is contextually-limited, even when Paul says things like "this is just my opinion, not the Lord talkin".

But really, if we're going to go with one (and each of the alternatives has its grammatical pros and cons, so I'm pretty sure this is not ever going to be 'settled'), I think a plausible and perhaps the only explanation for that is the cultural context, which would still be good advice today. Don't poke the bear.

I've been saying for almost 20 years, "If you really believe it's one, just don't make me an elder in your church. I'm okay with that—I have plenty to do." And I love @Slumberfreeze's tour de force of examples of people just busy serving God without aspiring to office. Makes a world of sense to me.

Last thought: We have basically adopted an inverse reasoning in our life and ministry. We used to have a much more outlandish lifestyle (come to a retreat if you want to hear stories...), but were led to 'normalize' our lifestyle on the ground that we didn't want to have other reasons for people to dismiss our witness re biblical marriage. I can easily see that same logic applying to the body of Christ in a firmly monogamous culture, and Paul's giving Timothy and Titus practical advice based on the mission, which was to convert the Roman world to Christianity, not plural marriage. Permit or even encourage (where appropriate) plural marriage, of course, because that's a consequence of God's design for marriage, but don't hit the surrounding culture over the head with it or it will distract you from the mission.

I reserve the right to come back to this—I just have some free time while I'm waiting for the water well guy to get here and am giving an unfiltered response to rockfox's provocation. ;) But I have been living this stuff for 20 years, and somehow never put 2 and 2 together and made 4. Rockfox, it's like you just threw a light switch or something.

The argument that plural men are too busy or too focused on pleasing their wives to help oversee the fellowship is bogus, a red herring, and one of those last pockets of resistance where we have bought into the cultural model of marriage without realizing it. "Many hands make light work", and a properly organized biblical family will actually empower the man to be of more service to the church, while a "happy wife, happy life" family will suck the life out of him.

What's that thing in Proverbs 31 about the man sitting in the gates with the elders? Oh yeah, verse 23: "Her husband is known in the gates, where he sits among the elders of the land." If that's true with one "virtuous woman', why wouldn't it also be true with two or three? She's busting her rump running everything, he's hanging out with the other elders making important decisions. What am I missing?

So I'm done with the "too busy" argument (thanks, rockfox! - can't believe I never made this connection), and I'd say we have to either deal with the possibility that the argument for one is an argument from wisdom (operating within a mono culture) or simply arbitrary (it's a mystery, He's God, He can do what He wants), or take a longer look at first or a for the translation.
 
Just for the record, I'm going to say the unthinkable:

I see enough differences between the different letters in the NT to believe that there are contextual admonitions there that do not apply like peanut butter across all assemblies everywhere throughout all time. There is wisdom there, and we can learn a lot from comparative study, but when it comes to acting in the here and now, we have to be sure we are hearing from God about what His specific word is for us in our specific location at our specific time, or we reach nonsensical conclusions.

So it just may be, just maybe, that different fellowships are going to hear the Spirit telling them different things here.
 
(Really? David could be king but not pastor ? Seriously?)

I mean... he couldn't keep his kids from raping and killing each other... If David got appointed to lead in my fellowship I'd be skipping town before it all went down. Not his only downfall by far!

If he rules his flock like he rules his house (and his army!), I would like to be spared the drama and subsequent civil war.
 
That was the punishment for his adultery, for which presumably he would also be removed as elder. But remember: “perfect in all his ways except for the Bathsheba thing”. He wasn’t a less-than-perfect ruler because he was polygamous but because he committed adultery even though he could have had more wives if he had only asked God.

Try again?... ;)
 
or take a longer look at first or a for the translation.
I've been rereading the gospels keeping being above reproach in mind. I keep returning to first as being best of the three option. It doesn't exclude mono or poly but does any man who may have used bad judgement (it happens not a stab at anyone) in choosing a first wife that left or failing to lead his family and it failing apart by his/her choice. I know many men learn from their mistakes but you will always have someone to challange the intrusions of a deacon/elder/bishop who is divorced. Even if they're squared away now the lingering doubt in their ability can be brought up at the most inopertune time. I know that goes against many men's sense of fair play but fair play is a cultral ideal not a the same as what scripture says is just.
 
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Agreed, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that Paul just might have counseled a low profile within certain contexts, such as Roman culture. Remember, Paul's the guy who said an elder should be of good report outside the body....
 
Try again?... ;)


You know I can't resist!


That was the punishment for his adultery, for which presumably he would also be removed as elder. But remember: “perfect in all his ways except for the Bathsheba thing”. He wasn’t a less-than-perfect ruler because he was polygamous but because he committed adultery even though he could have had more wives if he had only asked God.


For me, being perfect in all his ways and being unfit to be an elder are not a contradiction. I'm sure the stunt David pulled with the well water his men brought for him was reverent and kept him pure, in a way; but it was also irresponsible and wishy washy. From a leadership standpoint, he could have either not risked the lives of his men over something so trivial, or owned it when they brought him the water and drank it like a man.

This is not his only irrational command decision that cost his men's lives. 70,000 perished because he gave in to Satan's temptation to call for a census. Without side-tracking on why this was a sin, his general understood it to be a sin and David forged ahead anyways. I really need my elders to have more sense than this.

Like I've said before, it wasn't Uriah's blood that prevented David from building the temple. It was blood, period. David should have been fighting the wars, it was the center of God's will for him to go kill people. But to do so, and even to do it perfectly, prohibits him from building God a temple. For me these are not unconnected thoughts. David's strength was not ability to shepherd his own. His ability to "see to his people's needs" were... limited? He fought wars, bravely trusted in God, repented of wrong-doing readily, kept a clear conscience, and worshiped with all his might. He'd be a credit to any assembly he was part of. Heck, if a there's a spot for worship leader, I've found the guy! A leader of men and a lover of God!

But... an overseer of the souls of the flock? I'm not convinced he has the tools for the job. It's not his focus.
 
Now connect that to how many wives he had....
 
It's a fair cop. They aren't connected at all.

The stuff I brought up was more self control and management issues, for me his polygamy was it's own disqualification.

I did kind of wander from the purpose of the thread in my zeal to keep David out of the leadership in my church...

My initial purpose in going after him was my opinion that king and elder are different positions requiring different skill sets.

Although I probably should have tossed Saul out there. He was a pretty good king himself, but I don't know that anyone would back his bid for the eldership.
 
Mmm.. I'm not sure about that; in Timothy....
1) he is obliged to be married. I am not sure this applies to all men.
2) the Bishop should be "Not given to wine". What does that mean vs. the deacon "not given to much wine"? We can compare those against Yeshua producing some 135 gallons of excellent wine at a wedding. Who takes just a sip at a wedding?

If I misunderstood your point, and responded to something you didn't say, please accept my apologies.

No apologize necessary, my comments were more on a general term and confusing based on the context.
 
Although I probably should have tossed Saul out there. He was a pretty good king himself, but I don't know that anyone would back his bid for the eldership.

That seems to be an odd statement, Saul was not a good King compared to you requirements of 'elder' responsibilities. Saul is an old testament comparison to the new testament church, both are failures. I know that is off topic, but I also know that you @Slumberfreeze pretty much live for this discussion as I've seen you make the same statements for years in different forums about the case for one wife. If you are correct, I would prefer to pray for the gift of healing, or prophecy, or any of the other gifts of the spirit as opposed to praying for a particular office. I would imagine that if God has called an individual to a particular calling, gift or office, He has also prepared one for that calling. It would be strange to call a man to be a deacon if he were married to more that one if that were a requirement.
 
That seems to be an odd statement, Saul was not a good King compared to you requirements of 'elder' responsibilities.

That's what I'm saying. I could happily follow Saul as king, but not as an elder. A king is a political thing. Let Caesar be Caesar, the only qualification he needs to be king is bloodline or anointing (both of which are out of my hands). Elders I scrutinize more closely.

. I know that is off topic, but I also know that you @Slumberfreeze pretty much live for this discussion as I've seen you make the same statements for years in different forums about the case for one wife.

Yeah, well if you saw me then, you also saw the quality of the arguments I was dealing with. You can imagine I didn't make a lot of progress towards understanding where they were coming from while they were accusing me of being anti-poly or unsaved. I regret nothing except having engaged them in conversation in the first place.

If you are correct, I would prefer to pray for the gift of healing, or prophecy, or any of the other gifts of the spirit as opposed to praying for a particular office.
Man, even if I'm 100% wrong on this one, I would still pray for gifts over an office. Asking to be made an elder in this modern church age is like asking to be dietitian to a corpse. The gift of healing would be more appropriate.

Maybe this is part of why I'm drawn towards this discussion even though I truthfully find it grating. This church needs men of a caliber that hardly exist. This discussion proposes men that the church won't accept. The solution evades me, but I keep picking at it like a scab.
 
My initial purpose in going after him was my opinion that king and elder are different positions requiring different skill sets.
How are the skill sets different?
 
Just a thought to throw out there Re: Andrew's statement about contextualization:

Here's one tidbit to mention...
In our modern world, broken and far-from-perfect as it is, God still sees fit to appear to Muslims soldiers in ISIS with the appearance of the actor in the Jesus films, and tell them they aren't being good servants of Allah because they reject Christ.

I dunno about you, but if God can 'skip over' our cultural lenses and discussions about this minor stuff (the appearance of Jesus, the use of the term Allah, etc) in His reaching out to the peoples of the world...pretty sure we don't need to worry about it so much.

Of course that blows the mind of most in the west when they consider that so, YMMV, but oh well lol. Can't please 'em all I guess.
 
A king executes justice and kills the enemies of the people. He runs the affairs of state on behalf of the people. -Primarily War and Justice
An elder devotes himself to ministry of the word and to prayer. -Primarily Seeking God and Sharing His word

A king rules by decree-
An elder rules by consensus with other elders-

(Forgive my short response, I have a feeling if I I try to go deeper I'm not going to be coherent)

Perhaps I've got a deficit of experience, but I haven't ever seen a pastor I thought would make a good head of state, and I haven't seen a head of state I would trust as a pastor.
 
A king executes justice and kills the enemies of the people. He runs the affairs of state on behalf of the people. -Primarily War and Justice
An elder devotes himself to ministry of the word and to prayer. -Primarily Seeking God and Sharing His word

A king rules by decree-
An elder rules by consensus with other elders-

(Forgive my short response, I have a feeling if I I try to go deeper I'm not going to be coherent)

Perhaps I've got a deficit of experience, but I haven't ever seen a pastor I thought would make a good head of state, and I haven't seen a head of state I would trust as a pastor.

Woah, hey now, that's hurtful. What about me? I'd be great at both! :D

;)
 
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