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My next set of questions

bobnsandy

New Member
1. When wives are widowed, and they wish to remarry must they stay as a group or find seperate mates?
2. In a case where one of the wives and the husband die is/are the remaining wives condisered the parent(s) of all the children?
3. What are the "vows" used in a wedding for plural marrages?
4. Am I correct in saying that you don't believe plural marrages are a mandate for everyone?
5. When the husband no longer can have sexual relations may he use ED drugs?
6. Do any of you live in any type of "compound?"
 
bobnsandy said:
1. When wives are widowed, and they wish to remarry must they stay as a group or find seperate mates?
I believe that the Levirate command is for men who are literally brothers. The principle that widows should marry again is something that men who are friends can take up with a widow, but it isn't commanded. Also, the Levirate commandment is something that I think is directed towards Jews. However, I see a lot of wisdom in the idea of any man following that commandment.

Imagine you were a widow and you had spent many years living with your deceased husband's family and you were heavily involved with them. If you were to leave them to find another husband you would sorely miss them. You might prefer to marry a man who is close to that family so you could remain around all of them.
bobnsandy said:
2. In a case where one of the wives and the husband die is/are the remaining wives condisered the parent(s) of all the children?
In the patriarchal culture of the Bible, another man in the family would assume headship of the family.
bobnsandy said:
3. What are the "vows" used in a wedding for plural marrages?
Well, I can't speak for others, but in a Biblical/Jewish marriage ceremony the woman doesn't speak at all - other than to say "amen" after the different blessings. I'm fairly certain that concept of vows is not something that is part of the Biblical tradition that our Master would have followed. If you want to understand more of what the marriage at Cana was like where He did His first miracle, you should check out my Wedding Program from my marriage last Summer. You'll find it on my iDisk which is linked below in my signature. The file is called "WeddingProgram.pdf". Send me a message if you need help accessing it.

Essentially, a man betrothed a woman to himself and she signaled her acceptance by merely showing up and drinking from the cup of wine that the wedding blessings are said over and accepting the ring that her husband gave her. Then, the marriage ceremony is again carried out with her being silent and simply drinking from the cup of blessing again. The only vow or statement made is when the groom places the ring upon her finger and says, "Behold, you are consecrated to me by means of this ring according to the ritual of Moses and Israel." The rest of the ceremony consists of others saying blessings over the couple.

There is no minister needed for a man to take a wife. The reason you see Rabbis at a wedding is to ensure that everything is done correctly.
bobnsandy said:
4. Am I correct in saying that you don't believe plural marrages are a mandate for everyone?
I believe that everyone agrees that neither monogamy or polygyny are mandatory.
bobnsandy said:
5. When the husband no longer can have sexual relations may he use ED drugs?
Well, I think that he should consider the health risks when using any drugs. If the benefits outweigh the risks then why not?
bobnsandy said:
6. Do any of you live in any type of "compound?"
Not me. I don't think that anyone does, but I'm kind of new here and I haven't gotten to know everyone yet.
 
I'll take a shot at this ... Of course, the opinions offered are strictly my own.

1. When wives are widowed, and they wish to remarry must they stay as a group or find seperate mates?

Unless you know some scripture on the topic that I don't, that would seem to lie within the purview of individual choice. The wives certainly are free to set up a united front and say, "We come as a 'package deal' ", and that would of course be very nice. However, they've been loosed from the bond to their husband according to Rom 7:2 or so, right? That would seem to give them individual freedom. Each had her own individual marriage to their common husband.

Besides, what if they disagreed as to who to accept as their next husband? Or whether to? Who would decide? Individual choice seems best, though others may well disagree.

2. In a case where one of the wives and the husband die is/are the remaining wives condisered the parent(s) of all the children?

Again, individual choice might well be in play. Certainly, at the very least, the situation would be the same as if a step-mother was involved. A very real relationship does exist. As to the legalities, that is likely to have courts and relatives in an uproar UNLESS the husband and wives have made their wishes and intentions very clear through the appropriate legal documents -- wills, trusts, contracts, etc. Doing so makes responsible good sense whether in a mono or poly marriage. Just look at the fiasco surrounding Michael Jackson's kids.

3. What are the "vows" used in a wedding for plural marrages?

Much the same as in any other, I would think, with the exception of leaving out "forsaking all others" on the man's. When my wife and I married in an SdA church, I explained our belief to the Pastor, and instructed him specifically to leave that clause out of the vows, or I'd say, "No!" loudly and clearly. He handled it by using the minimal vows something like a justice of the peace might use, then having us read out our own vows, which worked pretty well, except that we both kinda broke down while saying them.

Then he said, "You may kiss the bride." and I came out with a good loud "Woof!" before doing so thoroughly. Several in the audience who knew our habit of conversing in woofs and meows gave good loud Meows during the, um, proceedings, to the general merriment of all.

So, I guess, my opinion is to have at it, and have fun, and not get too hung up on a formula.

4. Am I correct in saying that you don't believe plural marrages are a mandate for everyone?

Correct. First of all, scripture doesn't mandate it (with a very few potential exceptions). Secondly, demographics wouldn't support it unless we killed off significantly more males, and I'm not volunteering either myself or any of MY sons for the guillotine.

5. When the husband no longer can have sexual relations may he use ED drugs?

Back to personal choice. I suspect his wife or wives would rather appreciate it.

Of course, there are lifestyle changes that may well reverse the condition and replenish the lead in his pencil more effectively. An extended fast, like 30-40 days, happens to be one of them. Mineral, vitamin, and herb supplementation are others. Moving to a primarily or exclusively plant based diet is supposed to help. I know a man recently turned 90 who is still, um, active, if less frequently than in the past.

6. Do any of you live in any type of "compound?"

Like the Branch Davidians, or FLDS in the Big Love movies? So far as I know, "Not only NO, but ..." ... you get the picture. We're too much individualists, who have arrived here through our own thought and study rather than through sublimating our wills to those of another self-appointed prophet.

Having said that, some of us DO have rural homes on acreage that could be considered a compound of sorts, I guess, for our own families, if one were really just craving an opportunity to use the term. I, too, hope to have such a place one day, and would want to have dwelling space for each of my kids and their families, so that they had a place to come away and from which to venture out into the world. I'd like it to have a variety of outbuildings for various purposes as well. Would that constitute a compound? :)

Remember what was written by Mark on one of your other threads? That we're a widely diverse group? We truly are. And while there are many, many books on marriage written by people who not only have devoted their own lives to the subject, but stand on the backs of previous generations of writers (some good and some screwey), there is very little comparative history from which to draw for those of us devoted to forming possibly PM families on a strictly Biblical model. Even the Bible itself seems to have spoken on the most imperative topics but left the rest for us to figure out on our own. Isn't it fun?
 
I can only answer for myself with these questions. It might help you to think about polygamy in marriage as two monogamous marriages that are happening at the same time with the same husband for both women.

1. When wives are widowed, and they wish to remarry must they stay as a group or find separate mates?
It is my belief that the decision is left up to each woman because marriage is between the man and each wife, not the man and both the wives. I know of two wives in this situation that did not continue living together, but they also did not have any children with the husband while they were living polygamously. I also know of two women that are insisting on staying together and remarrying to one husband.

2. In a case where one of the wives and the husband die is/are the remaining wives condisered the parent(s) of all the children? This is again up to the husband and wives to decide before the marriage(s). It should be done based on the situation, the ability of the remaining to support everyone, and the other close family such as grandparents, etc. There is no rule to go by, it is preference, but should be decided on and planned for so it is taken care of legally.

3. What are the "vows" used in a wedding for plural marrages? The vows again are a matter of preference. The majority of marriages are not taking place at the same time, so the vows for each wife could be the same, but do not have to be. A google search for covenant vows would probably give a lot of information.

4. Am I correct in saying that you don't believe plural marrages are a mandate for everyone? Plural marriages are not only not a mandate by this group or God, they are an impossibility due to the numbers of men and women in any society. There are not twice as many women as men in any society that I know of, so every man being married to more than one woman is not really possible.

5. When the husband no longer can have sexual relations may he use ED drugs? Are you asking if using performance enhancing drugs is Biblical, or is a sin, or is accepted by this forum? I would say that anything that is done in a healthy monogamous marriage would be the same in a polygamous structure.

6. Do any of you live in any type of "compound?" We have four acres with a creek and an 8,000 square foot cabinet manufacturing business. We do put up a gate at night so the chickens won’t get out and the locals don’t mistake our driveway for the entrance to lovers’ lane. Oh, you mean “compound” like fenced in with a big temple and raided by the Gestapo type of set-up.
No. There are no regular members of this forum that live in compounds or colonies or anything like that.

Blessings,
Paul
 
bobnsandy said:
I must say you folks sound very normal except for what others may consider otherwise.

Aaaaawww, THANKS!!! However, I'm afraid you've been sadly misled. ... :?

You have yet to meet my alter ego, Sir BumbleBerry von Mischief, in full cry; nor SweetLissa's Wandering Mind, nor my cousin Sir Galahad von BumbleBerry; nor the other Knights and Ladies of the Round Fable such as Pablito Picasso don Quixote who throws paint at tilted windbags. We've even got a Loquacious Lonely Moor (who didn't know until just now that he HAD an Official Fun Title), and a Quilted Pussycat.

And, as yet, I've been keeping carefully hidden my wildest alter ego, Napoli-ant Blownaparte. Oof! He might best STAY hidden!

I'm telling you, we just SEEM like a normal, everyday bunch, with whom you might go fishing, or play a round of golf, or barbecue, or worship, and enjoy great discussions, and you'd of course be right.

But underneath the surface of lots of us, there is a certifiably crazy urge-to-have-fun just a-bubbling away like a pot of old-fashioned molasses taffy. It breaks out pretty often, with delightful free-wheeling results! (Ever HAD any of that old-fashioned, hand-pulled molasses taffy? Let's get together and make some at the next retreat!)

So, along with the deeply serious discussions and fellowship, which we all enjoy and treasure, keep an eye out for the unexpected bizarre light-heartedness. It keeps us from slowly morphing into Towering Pompous Ponderosities. :roll: In my case, you see, that would otherwise be a very real danger. :ugeek:
 
normal, hmmmm

i'm wracking my brain to come up with a "normal" person in the bible who accomplished anything......... ;)

aww, just kidding :lol: i know that you meant it in a good way
 
I am liking bobnsandy.

I think that bobnsandy is a great addition to our little group. No bad attitude and has a good definition of "christian". I would like to see bobnsandy's reaction to some of the lesser known polygamaniac verses like Isaiah 4:1 and such.

Have you read "Man and Woman in Biblical Law"?
What is your background?
Are you a pastor?
How did you come to find this site, and what got you started thinking about the biblical form of polygamy?

The "these people are normal" realization hit me after the first 30 minutes at the orlando retreat. I am glad that you gave that compliment to us, sometimes we need stuff like that from the outside, especially when we are used getting the "going to hell" treatment.
 
I see that others have already taken a shot at some answers, so I won't try to rehash any of that.

But I DO note that Q #6 slid by without enough humor or cynicism - depending:

6. Do any of you live in any type of "compound?"

By definition, a "compound" is anywhere that the occupants within may be deprived of their lives, liberty, property, or, of course, children, without the pretense of due process of law.

Who lives in a "compound" is thus determined chiefly by the media, in hindsight.

Remember that there are OTHER verses in the Bible that are about to be outlawed in this former Republic as well...


And, re: vows. I frequently note that every husband should be aware of what Numbers 30 says about vows. Our Savior knew His own Word well, and taught that we should be wary of what we vow.

Every marriage is a Covenant between a man, and a woman, before God. The nature of the promises (see Ex. 21:10, for example, which forms the basis of the 'traditional' minimum standards for a marriage contract, or ketuba) has nothing to do with "how many" (indeed, there is no unique word in Hebrew that even makes a distinction, as there is in Greek, etc: "poly..." vs. "mono...")

Read Isaiah 4:1. If God were (for His own reasons) to personally show a man that He was to take another wife - would that man be remorseful about a vow that he perhaps should never have made?

Blessings,

Mark
 
I like to say that I am perfectly normal with just this one little quirk to make me interesting.

1. T and I don't consider ourselves married to each other. We have talked about this "package deal" thing but we probably would go our separate ways unless something amazing happened. We would be close for life though.

2. We have no children to raise but child guardianship should be addressed in a will.I should figure out who gets custody of the dogs though.

Compond? Heck this family can't even get in the same country or state. We do think it would be nice if more of us lived closer to each other.


SweetLissa
 
sweetlissa said:
We have talked about this "package deal" thing but we probably would go our separate ways unless something amazing happened. We would be close for life though.
I have an interesting question for you! Imagine for a moment that you lived in ancient Israel and your husband died without a male child to carry on his name. Do you ladies think that you would accept marrying one of your husband's brothers?

For those who don't know, I'm referring to the Levirate marriage of Deuteronomy 25:5-10:
When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be {married} outside {the family} to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel. But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.' Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And {if} he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,' then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.' In Israel his name shall be called, 'The house of him whose sandal is removed.'
 
BrYce,
If I am not mistaken the purpose of that law was to provide the dead brother (who is without child?) with an heir. Since T has already given hubby 3 male children who have all procreated, it is a moot issue.

If however, we were in ancient Israel and we had no children to inherit from hubby, I am sure we would follow this law, since it would seem to apply to us. Again, in this case, I don't think it applies because if he died, he would not be childless.

SweetLissa
 
Yeah, for sure - it was just a hypothetical question.

We see that the focus of the commandment was to ensure the man's name was carried forward. Now, I wonder whether there are other ways to apply that commandment in a way that wasn't specifically commanded? The literal interpretation of the commandment is as you said, but can we perhaps apply that commandment in another way to encourage men to take care of widows in their midst? Perhaps that is what Paul did in his teachings on widows.

This is a concept that was introduced to me a short while ago and I'm trying to figure it all out. It was suggested that there is a connection between the Levirate marriage and Paul's teachings on widows in 1 Timothy 5. It's important to me, for one of the true marks of pure religion is for people to provide care towards widows (James 1:27).

Thanks for being a sounding board for me to bounce these ideas around. :D
 
Well Paul,
No, I have not read the book to which you refer.
I was searching information about something else when I found your link with a picture of something and I thought the idea of Biblical Poloygamy seemed something of intrest.
No I am not a pastor but I did play one in a Church play a few years back. I would call my self a Bible student (ongoing Lifetime). I hold to a Basic Biblical Baptist outlook on life. ( that is a new way of saying a Fundemental Independent Baptist)of the Premill, pretrib bent.
I prefer the KJV, but don't think it is any more special than any other version. I shun the New World Translation, I think the LDS folks are a moral bunch for the most part but I reject 99.9% of their ideas( please don't ask what the .01% is)
I have been known to break bread with other types of true Christians
 
There are many good resources that you can study apart from the forum. There are links on the resources and links tabs on the homepage.

No I am not a pastor but I did play one in a Church play a few years back
Too funny.

YOU seem like the normal one, now.
 
Hello to a fellow Independant Baptist!

My only major difference from the others here is that my wives would definitely stay together if something happened to me. My wife clearly wants ongoing stability, and my girlfreind and the girl I want as a girlfreind would both want that if they got serious. They would have to choose someone alltogether in that case too, but they want the family bond to keep going especially for the kids sakes. To that end the children are also very much common to all the parents, we have a lawyer who will set this up for us legally too.
 
Tlaloc said:
My only major difference from the others here is that my wives would definitely stay together if something happened to me.
i'm with you on this one bud. a family is a family
if i were to pass, all 7 of them will (hopefully) grab the hem......................
 
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