Meat Once saved always saved?

[Joleneakamama]

One view has a high regard for the veracity of God's claims about Himself and His ability while the other does not.

God is always to be exalted in His perfect holiness.

I appreciate this very much. I think it is important that we always remember His thoughts and ways are higher then ours.

It is a human tendency to recreate God with limits that perhaps our own humanity impose on our thinking. Some of my family believe that God is all loving kindness and any "negative" ( in their view) used in relationship to Him (like jealousy or anger) is just there because translators inserted it, projecting that "negative" aspect onto our God that is actually perfect without it. Some also see Him as being bound by His own laws. (Mormon doctrine has God actually saying "I the lord god am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say ye have no promise") The bible in contrast has Him keeping His covenants always, even when the people did not, and yet also walking on water and stoppibg the sun. It also has Him declaring the end from the beginning. I have some family with loose screws that think all prophesy is conditional. But then no prophesy would be worth a tinker's darn if that were true, because it all might change before those thousands of years have passed.

I think that the verse that says "He is not willing that any should perish" begs the question, who can thwart His will? I have a hard time thinking anyone would truly will themselves dead....though some mentally ill do. Then too we don't allow youths to contract, because they lack the full comprehension of an adult. I don't believe any mortal can comprehend eternity and that is part of why I don't believe in punnishment that exceeds our comprehension.....especially as a lake of fire forever would be torture....something God never authorized. Chastisement yes, judgement yes, death perhaps, but not torture. Daniel says that when Michael stands up for his people the dead will be raised, some to Glory and some to shame.

I am inclined to think all sin has been paid for, and the advantage to understanding that and being baptized is life NOW, not just later after you're raised to understanding.... and to the shame that would go with realizing all your sins. The transformation He works in lives is HUGE. You are blessed if you believe like Thomas after seeing, (after you are raised even??) But are more blessed if you believe now.
The wicked after all are outside the gates, and have their part in the lake that burns with fire.
I am certainly open to a better understanding. ...That is just where I am today.

 

[Pacman]

what @Pacman was trying to argue. is that you do so, by not obeying Torah.

No sir that is incorrect. Go back and read it. I am talking about willful rebellion. For someone who still believes the churchianity doctrine that the law changed at the crucifixion it isn't willful. They are incorrect in my opinion but they are part of the kingdom.

 

[Pacman]

No one has responded to this:

Romans 11:17-24
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [18] do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [19] You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." [20] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [21] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [22] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [23] And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[rockfox]

Let's look at what He said. "My sheep" are those who are His; they belong to Him. That means ownership; His sheep are His by right of purchase. His sheep listen to Him, hearing His voice so that they follow Him. Those are the sheep He gives life to which is eternal and as possessors of His life, He says (note please His words) καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται (They shall never perish). The use of the double negative makes this statement emphatic. If it is His sheep, it follows Him and He guarantees the life He has given to His sheep. If it ever perishes, it was never one He owned because He Himself is the guarantor. To suggest He could fail to accomplish what He has personally guaranteed to do for His own sheep is.... not a good idea.

That agricultural metaphor does not hold in the way you want it to, as any farmer can tell you. Livestock can reject their master and run away, to live or die by their own hoof. Ranchers call them herd quitters. You can try and force them to stay but you'll just get a hoof to the face for you trouble. Their only end is death.

What difference does it make?

I've seen the fruit of OSAS and it is wicked. Many millions of young people who live wicked lives and think they're saved because that one time they prayed a prayer. This easy believism is morally bankrupt. The epitome of blind leading the blind.

Once Saved Always Saved sounds good when taking a few verses in isolation but is clearly contradicted by the whole testimony of scripture...

Christ speaking...

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

People who've done miraculous works by the power of God are cast out!

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by [my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Passages like this are why so many Christians are ignorant of much of what the Bible teaches, their Sunday School theology can't bear even the shallowest of scrutiny by the scriptures.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

If it was impossible for a Christian to be lost, Christ would not talk about casting them away.

If our place was permanent, there would not be a warning to abide in Him.

If we could not loose salvation, Christ wouldn't speak of those 'in him' being 'cut off' and 'burned'.

Note the branches are in Him, and then they are not but cast in the fire.

And all this in John 15, one of if not the most pivotal moments in Christian New Covenant teaching.

And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

The sower sows the word. And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

Jesus' explanation of this parable is quite devastating to the idea. Multiple of these categories believed the word but did not endure.

OSAS is a complete impossibility in light of these different passages. They could not be written as they are if Perseverance of the Saints was true.

Christianity isn't a get out of jail free card. It's not a ticket you punch to get into heaven. It's not a box you check or a prayer you pray once. It's a radical departure into a new life and the cost is high...

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

and

And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

I liken the Christian life to military life. When you sign up you sacrifice your life, give it over to the state to dispense with as they will. So long as you abide in the command you are in the military. But you can still go AWOL. You're not "once Army always Army'. You can be dishonorably discharged for rebellion.

You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.

This isn't some special case, it's the nature of all hierarchies. But we are a society which rejects authority and hierarchy at almost every turn and no longer have a good understanding of this. Well except for government, that hierarchy, which has slandered and eliminated all competing hierarchies in it's attempt to be god on this earth, that one we are expected to serve absolutely.

 

[frederick]

That agricultural metaphor does not hold in the way you want it to

Note the branches

Tut tut! A little self contradictory.
For your benefit I'll repeat myself...

Because you and I have a different starting point and we go a different direction, we'll never end up with the same understanding. If you want to dispute Jesus' power to ensure none of His sheep will ever perish, that's your choice. But He is the Savior and He gives the guarantee so why doubt Him? If you believe you or anyone else can defeat your savior then perhaps you are greater than your savior. Best you re-read John 10 and see who is greater than all. Shalom

 

[frederick]

You can be dishonorably discharged for rebellion.

So what law do you have to keep, what sin do you have to avoid to deserve to be saved by your savior?
Eternal salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and it is all for God's glory. There are no laws to keep, no sin to avoid because eternal salvation is a gift of God. Shalom

 

[steve]

Because you and I have a different starting point and we go a different direction, we'll never end up with the same understanding.

But in Yah’s view, one of us is right and one is wrong.
Starting in the wrong place isn’t the problem, ending in the wrong place is. If our focus is on Him, we will both come to the same conclusion as we get closer to the source of all truth.
If one’s focus is on defending their assumptions, they will die in deception.

 

[steve]

First off, @FollowingHim, given that, after his edits, @steve's post above reads as being a response to my post, I think it best if you remove your post that indicates that a mistake has been made, because that mistake has been corrected.

I am perfectly comfortable with leaving the proof standing that I can mess up with the best of them.
Some may be provided a small measure of amusement sorting it out.

 

[steve]

The question this logic poses is: if no one can overpower Christ's grip on us, then how can anyone become exempt from the power of that grip to be able to be let go by Christ?

This is the part that I find the strangest.
In my mental image of the passage, we are resting in His open hand. No thing or body is grappling with Him trying to snatch us out, they cannot get within arm’s length without receiving a haymaker on the chin sending them flying into the next county. I just don’t see Him gripping us like King Kong with the girl.

Your mental gymnastics trying to establish the ““no one” would include oneself” aside, you cannot snatch, or in King Jim, pluck yourself.
(Me: don’t go there steve
Also me: but it’s all teed up, waiting for a good whack!............ok)

You can only snatch someone/thing that is not you

 

[FollowingHim]

I've seen the fruit of OSAS and it is wicked. Many millions of young people who live wicked lives and think they're saved because that one time they prayed a prayer. This easy believism is morally bankrupt. The epitome of blind leading the blind.

I agree that when this is approached as something like "say the sinners prayer then you can do whatever you want and it's all good", that is wickedly deceptive as it encourages sin. However, that is not what @frederick has been saying. His point is that people can fall away and not be saved - but if they do so, it means they never were saved in the first place. He has not in any way been promoting the caricature of OSAS that you have rightly criticised.

What I find interesting is that @frederick has been accused of presenting potentially damaging theology, for two entirely opposite and even contradictory reasons:

Many millions of young people who live wicked lives and think they're saved because that one time they prayed a prayer.

If a close friend who had roughly the same salvation experience that I had and grew up under the same teaching that I did could become an enemy of the faith, and is judged by interpretation of select Scripture as never having been saved, by what right can I claim to be saved?

Is @frederick giving people too much assurance of salvation (as @rockfox contends)? Or is he giving people too little assurance of salvation (as @steve contends)? Or is he actually doing neither?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I don't think there's as much disagreement here as it appears on the surface.

Each of us can no doubt think of people who once followed Christ (or at least appeared to, from our outside view), and now very clearly don't follow Him any more. Although @Keith Martin (who has a universalist view) may have a different perspective, I would think that @Pacman, @frederick and @steve would all agree that this person is not presently in the Kingdom of God.

The difference is solely in how we explain what went on behind the scenes leading to this point, from God's perspective.

@Pacman and @steve would say that person was once in the Kingdom, and then left the Kingdom.

@frederick would say they never were in the Kingdom, they just appeared to be. God, knowing they would not stay there, never let them in to begin with.

I say: What difference does it make? Either way, this person is not in the Kingdom.

Either way, if a person appears to follow God, but later falls away, they are not saved. Regardless of whether God let them in then booted them out, or never let them in knowing they'd fall away later, the end result is the same.

The practical lesson is if you start following God, but later fall away, you're not in the Kingdom. You need to actually persevere in faith and die as a follower of Christ in order to be saved. Don't fall away.

I don't think we need to fully understand how God sees this situation. I do not know whether He let them in then booted them out, or whether He never let them in. But I know the practical implication for our personal lives, and for evangelism of others. And that's all that really matters.

Maybe but it smacks of Calvinism to me and Calvin deserves whatever it gets.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Oooooh oooooh oooooh, I can solve this one! The foolish virgins! They were waiting for the bridegroom, they were betrothed. They were at the marriage supper and at the last minute we’re shut out. Suck it Calvin!

 

[The Revolting Man]

So what law do you have to keep, what sin do you have to avoid to deserve to be saved by your savior?
Eternal salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and it is all for God's glory. There are no laws to keep, no sin to avoid because eternal salvation is a gift of God. Shalom

That’s a ridiculous statement. Read Acts 15, or any other passage of the New Testament. The lists of actions that will keep you out of Heaven are long and multitudinous.

 

[frederick]

That’s a ridiculous statement. Read Acts 15, or any other passage of the New Testament. The lists of actions that will keep you out of Heaven are long and multitudinous.

So your salvation is, according to you, dependent upon you not performing the lists of long and multitudinous actions recorded in Acts 15 or any other passage of the new testament.
And my salvation is dependent upon the finished work of Jesus Christ who died for my sins according to the Scriptures, and was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. Hmmm.... okay, you deserve eternal life because of your successes.
I don't deserve eternal life except for Christ's successes.
Let me think here.... mmm...., your salvation stands or falls because of who you are and my salvation stands or falls because of who Jesus Christ is. Yup, I got it now! Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[FollowingHim]

Certainly there are many instructions on how we are to live righteously, and we should not neglect these. But to assume all of them are salvation matters is a leap of logic. Acts 15 for instance does not say these instructions are salvation matters. On the contrary, the benefit of them is said to be simply:
"from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you."

Yes, once we are saved we should find out, and then follow, the instructions of our Master. Yes, if we choose to make no effort to do so we clearly have not actually submitted to him as Lord, and one way or another will ultimately find ourselves rejected by Him. In the extreme, a complete lack of works evidences a complete lack of faith.

But the individual instructions are themselves practical or holiness matters. Sanctification, not salvation.

 

[frederick]

a complete lack of works evidences a complete lack of faith.

Precisely.
James wrote saying, Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[Pacman]

I just want to point out that this is written to believers...

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, [20] idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, [21] envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[FollowingHim]

I just wanted to also point out that that list is very different from the list in Acts 15. There are rules, and there are rules.

 

[rockfox]

I agree that when this is approached as something like "say the sinners prayer then you can do whatever you want and it's all good", that is wickedly deceptive as it encourages sin. However, that is not what @frederick has been saying. His point is that people can fall away and not be saved - but if they do so, it means they never were saved in the first place. He has not in any way been promoting the caricature of OSAS that you have rightly criticised.

I see no difference between what he's saying and the general understanding of OSAS (if there is I trust him to explain it); I don't need to make up a caricature to criticize, OSAS as generally believed is ridiculous all on its own. And this thread is about OSAS in general and not just Fred's perspective.

'they were never saved in the first place' is the a very common conceit OSAS folks use to explain away apparently saved Christians who fall from the faith. But it's a 'me or your lying eyes' argument. Do we ever see such an explanation in scripture? No. Well, maybe there is something similar about Judus or the like; but as a general principle of explanation for how the Kingdom of God works? No.

To the contrary the scriptures I quoted, the scriptures specifically about how the Kingdom of God works, aptly describe how it goes: those people were seed that sprouted and believed, they were people who were branches and were in Christ. People who by Christ's words WERE saved. People who by the evangelical conception of John 3:16 are saved. But they ultimately withered, failed to produce and were cast out. If OSAS was true the parable of the Sower and of the vine branches would have been written totally differently.

So what law do you have to keep, what sin do you have to avoid to deserve to be saved by your savior?
Eternal salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and it is all for God's glory. There are no laws to keep, no sin to avoid because eternal salvation is a gift of God. Shalom

Go back and read the passages I quoted. You're using human logic to try and ignore them but what they describe is directly contrary to your position. Base your faith on the scriptures, not human logic. Believe what the scriptures say on their face and then work from there.

And they also contain the answer to your question.

You must not have read them and the associated passages or you'd never say 'no laws to keep' for Christ said...

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17These things I command you, that you love one another.

No laws eh?

And if you don't abide in Christ, if you don't bear fruit...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Really @frederick , go back and read John 13-15, these are foundational teachings, absolutely pivotal to proper understanding of the Christian faith and you can't reconcile OSAS with them. Not by a long shot.

Is @frederick giving people too much assurance of salvation (as @rockfox contends)? Or is he giving people too little assurance of salvation (as @steve contends)? Or is he actually doing neither?

It's both. For people who don't examine their faith and life it gives false assurance. For those who are self critical it undermines assurance because they see people who by their theological standards were saved go on to fall away. People who by their walk bore more fruit / were more spiritual / were more virtuous and yet fell away. Which brings doubts, "If he who was so much better in the faith than I could fall away and was never saved then am I?"

 

[Edward]

I liken the Christian life to military life. When you sign up you sacrifice your life, give it over to the state to dispense with as they will. So long as you abide in the command you are in the military. But you can still go AWOL. You're not "once Army always Army'. You can be dishonorably discharged for rebellion.

This is GREAT. I am going to share this on FB don't worry you will get the credit.