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Pacifism

Seth

Seth

Member
So I wanna be a pacifist, but it doesn't come easy. I think I have a handle on it, and then I have these kinda conversations, and I just wanna kill a man (yes rage against the machine starts playing in my head)
This is a conversation about some girls that were recently rescued from some sex exploitation
3:44pmother
the asked her to treat Dees STD what must she do and tried to tell them and started crying
3:44pm
how old is dee?
3:45pmother
12
had it maybe 4 years
treated the last 3 years
3:45pmMe
argh, some of the things you tell me make me so sad :(:(
which std is it?
3:46pmMirother
herpies in her rectum
ate through the wall
3:46pmMe
ug stop
I can't know more
3:46pmMother
but stopped now
3:46pmMe
I really work at being a pacifist
but things like that.....well I'd be a lapsed pacifist

So how do we pray for our enemies, turn the other cheek, humble ourselves to them, and seek only good for them, when they are monsters of this caliber?
 
Agreed...it is difficult and we are not even the victim...what really bothers me is that the media slants and sensationalizes what they feel will sell and for the most part ignore the rest...

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Seth said "So how do we pray for our enemies, turn the other cheek, humble ourselves to them, and seek only good for them, when they are monsters of this caliber?"
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Seth,
I struggled with this a long time ago and came to a conclusion that works for me. Pray for our personal enemies, turn the other cheek to those that strike us for the gospel's sake, humble myself before God and my brethren, and seek the salvation of all men, even those that are about to be executed for a capital crime. I believe in capital punishment and victims rights. I also believe in our right to not become victims through self-defense. I have a concealed carry permit and go nowhere whithout my Kel-tech 32. I carry it not so much for my own defence, but for the ability to defend and save the otherwise defenseless. I find the idea of self-sacrifice to the appetites of depraved criminals contrary to the theme and specific statements of scripture.
 
100%, john, 100%
perfectly nuanced for the gospel's sake

also, i can look kindly on one who is going to the electric chair knowing that he will be repenting for eternity. he just doesn't know it yet
 
Was Jesus a pacifist?

WWJD?

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

I'm sorry, did John write that He, Jesus Christ himself, fashioned a weapon?

I also notice he doesn't reason with them. He doesn't ask them nicely to stop. He doesn't picket their operation? He doesn't even stop to pray for them, or hand out tracts in front of them.

We do not have to guess, What Would Jesus Do. We should ask instead, WDJD or WDJS. What Did Jesus Do? What Did Jesus Say?

What did Jesus Say?

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Did Jesus command them to sell their clothes and buy a sword? <sarcasm> OH My </sarcasm>

Jesus was no peace-nick. He was a trouble maker ...He was by all accounts counter cultural. The world hated him, and it will hate true Christians as well.

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Men of God need to learn to be men again, to defend the helpless, and to speak out against injustice.

That is all I have to say about that for now...

God Bless,

Robert
 
But Seth you are a pacifist like me on the subject. You pass-a-fist from left to right! I have a hard time with stuff like that too. Then again I can blame it on the polynesian blood.
 
God is not a pacifist. He is a just Judge and executes judgment. He may begin correction with love, but He wreaks vengance when just and appropriate.

Jesus... same deal. He came as a lamb, but returns as a lion!
 
Keep in mind that this is just the simple musings of a non Christian and apply as many grains of salt as you may personally require to make it palatable.

I have not read any version of the bible since possibly before my youngest wife was born but I do remember one thing about Christ and that is that he was a carpenter. I have known my share of carpenters and to a man they were not just hard as nails but also there was not a pacifist in the bunch.

Could expand a lot on why I think that pacifism is a poisonous philosophy but I will leave it be as it might be interpreted as some sort of shot against someone personally .
 
Agree. Pacifism and the Christian view are not the same. A carpenters work is based on gentle force to produce works of beauty or something functional. And clay to a Potter has no choice but to yeld.
 
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I think the word "pacifist" is a bit loaded and means different things to different people, because it all depends what you see as the opposite of pacifism. If the choices are between pacifism and secular militarism, I'm definitely a pacifist - the wars of mankind are invariably evil, in hindsight you generally find out that the side that seemed "good" was largely just the one with the most effective propaganda. The more history I read, the more "pacifist" I become - in that context.

But when it comes to the day-to-day, what to do about a woman being abused or whatever - if being a pacifist means ignoring the plight of the downtrodden, then I'd certainly not be a pacifist.

Context is key.
 
paterfamilias said:
Keep in mind that this is just the simple musings of a non Christian and apply as many grains of salt as you may personally require to make it palatable.

I have not read any version of the bible since possibly before my youngest wife was born but I do remember one thing about Christ and that is that he was a carpenter. I have known my share of carpenters and to a man they were not just hard as nails but also there was not a pacifist in the bunch.

Could expand a lot on why I think that pacifism is a poisonous philosophy but I will leave it be as it might be interpreted as some sort of shot against someone personally .
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I’m a carpenter, the son of a carpenter, the brother of a carpenter and I work with other carpenters, and to a man, your theory rings true.
 
I agree with respect to context and would add that it is often a case of micro vs macro with respect when it is something that can be judged as a easily defensible justification for violence. Too big of a conflict generally is for the benefit of the elite and very much at the expense of normal people. Not that I would apply pacifism here. In fact I would advocate for even less pacifism in that those who would plunge us into war for personal gain should be aggressively pursued.
On a micro scale though I am so very much a proponent of the use of force be it to teach good manners or to remove someone like the one Seth alluded to in his original post. Lots more thoughts on the topic but it would become pedantic in detail.
 
paterfamilias said:
Too big of a conflict generally is for the benefit of the elite and very much at the expense of normal people. Not that I would apply pacifism here. In fact I would advocate for even less pacifism in that those who would plunge us into war for personal gain should be aggressively pursued.
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That's what every warmongering leader says:
"Those people would plunge us into war for <insert bad reason here> so lets plunge ourselves into war to stop them."

This is where the message of Jesus is backwards from the natural inclinations of humanity:
Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

Unfortunately we have grown up in a culture steeped in propaganda-based legends of WW1 and WW2, where our nations supposedly were "peacemakers" because they conquered great evil. Few realise that in most cases (generalising over several countries and two conflicts) it was our own countries who declared war first, and the enormous evils committed by our own side (e.g. the bombings of Hamburg and Dresden) are skimmed over in our national consciousness to keep the myth alive that we were wholly good and the enemy was wholly evil. That's not being a peacemaker, that's being simultaneously a warmonger and a good propagandist.

The peacemaker is the one who tries to stop the war. The most obvious genuine attempted peacemaker of WW2 was Rudolph Hess, and the allies gave him life imprisonment for his efforts - demonstrating our nations no longer read Matthew 5:9.
 
"That's what every warmongering leader says:
"Those people would plunge us into war for <insert bad reason here> so lets plunge ourselves into war to stop them.""

I think you must be misconatuing what I said somewhere because I specifically advocate for stopping war but absolutely did not make reference to it being a state that does the going after the elites who start the war. It need not always be people dying however that might effect change. I can think of a case where if a woman were not dead we would not have had a world war for example.
I like to think that should their grandmother still been alive that George and Wilhelm would never have dared to kick things off.
 
paterfamilias said:
I like to think that should their grandmother still been alive that George and Wilhelm would never have dared to kick things off.
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They didn't kick it off. If anything, they tried to stop it - along with their other cousin the Tsar of Russia. To quote Wilhelm's biographer:
"Three Emperors avowedly opposed to war were driven by the ambition, vindictiveness, and incompetence of their Ministers into a conflict whose danger for their thrones they all three recognized from the first and, if only for that reason, tried to avoid."
And Lord Grey of Britain:
"If matters had rested with him (the Kaiser) there would have been no European War arising out of the Austro-Serbian dispute."
The idea this was caused by the monarchs was a myth, created to shift the blame from the many people who were actually at fault and direct public anger at specific individuals who could be made scapegoats.

If you're interested in WW1, here's an excellent book I have referenced before and cannot recommend highly enough: Falsehood in wartime: Propaganda lies of the First World War, by Lord Arthur Ponsonby of Britain, 1928.

Austria declared war on Serbia due to a small dispute. Germany was dragged in due to a mutual defense agreement with Austria. Russia was dragged in due to an agreement with Serbia. France was dragged in due to an agreement with Russia. Britain was dragged in due to secret agreements with France. And Britain brought in the Commonwealth and eventually the USA, making it a world war. The governments and militaries driving the war all thought it would be over rapidly and would simply achieve specific limited goals within Europe, very rapidly and with limited bloodshed due to new technology. None foresaw the way it would escalate nor the bloodshed that occurred. The whole thing was an unplanned disaster.

And that is the danger with trying to solve a problem through violence. It can sound like a quick and effective solution to a small problem. But it can quickly blow up into something that was never intended.
 
FollowingHim said:
The idea this was caused by the monarchs was a myth, created to shift the blame from the many people who were actually at fault and direct public anger at specific individuals who could be made scapegoats.
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Golly Wally, that sounds suspiciously like a deep state kinda thing.
 
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