Paul

[PeteR]

While I know nothing of the Testament of the Patriarchs (thanks Google... ) I do have some thoughts on why Paul was a Benjamite.

Benjamin is the bridge between Judah and Joseph. He was then and is even now, though more hidden. Consider:

-Benjamin, son of Rachel, was accepted and protected by Judah in Genesis while Joseph was in Egypt. Judah's pledge to his father, Jacob, to protect Benjamin extends even to this day.

-Benjamin was the first to recognize Joseph and was the 'instrument' by which Joseph tested and revealed himself to his brothers.

-The covenant between Benjamin and Judah was secured in Jonathan and David.

-The house of Israel, aka house of Joseph, aka Ephraim, aka Israel (context determines if the passage is talking about all Israel or just the Northern Kindgom ), aka northern Kingdom, was ruled by Jeroboam and his descendants, the tribe of Ephraim, son of Joseph.

- Ephraim territory and Judah territory was interposed by... Benjamin territory.

- The Temple, though in Jerusalem, sat on Benjamite land.

- Today, in Israel, the only tribal territory with identifiable borders is Benjamite.

Now, my strong suspicion is that those today, of Messianic Judaism, who are Jews and know Yeshua/Jesus are of Benjamin. Like their father, they are in covenant with and under the protection of Judah, but recognize 'Joseph' and in many cases, the emerging house of Israel. ( I've written a book on this complex topic that is woven all the way through the fabric of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation and is extremely relevant prophetically in our time.)

Paul's role of restoring the two houses of Israel is exactly the role of Benjamin. Bridge!

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Oh, wow! So that is a prophecy of Paul? Was he of the tribe of Benjamin? What does it mean "he shall be a chosen one of God forever"?

[edit: read it in the original work, it almost sounds like a prophecy of Christ. but I'm not sure. Are these testaments TO the children of that tribe or generally?

I believe that the prophecy is fulfilled in Paul and is specifically referred to in Romans 1:2 in parenthesis. He was of the tribe of Benjamin. Only two men are mentioned in the New Testament from the tribe of Benjamin. King Saul Acts 13:21, and Paul in Romans 11:1 and Philippians 3:5

I am not sure the answer to the chosen one of God forever. I do believe that Paul plays the same role in the New Covenant that Moses played in the Old Covenant. This is better understood with knowing the role of Moses and Elijah in Jewish Culture re espousal and marriage customs.

These testaments are expressly to the children of each of the sons of Jacob. This one in particular is in response to Jacob’s testament to Benjamin in Genesis 49. I believe that the ravening wolf that devours the prey in the morning (early days) was the first Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin, and the last Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin would be the one who divides or apportions the “prey” or the goodies to all in the evening (latter days)

Interesting to note is other passages that deal with ravening wolves in scripture. Usually they are dealing with the priests who are more concerned about their own prosperity than the wellbeing of their flock. That perspective is the antithesis of Paul’s approach. 1 Corinthians 9:11-15. 2 Corinthians 11:8,9, 12:17,18

 

[Cap]

I actually agree with this. Although not so much in the elevation as in the neglect of Christ's perspective. The character of the Protestant's take on the Gospel is very Pauline, and leaves out some critical things which Christ put great emphasis on.

I agree with this and is really what I am trying to say.

 

[rockfox]

That's good. I guess as I read it the ravening wolves in this prophecy didn't have a negative connotation so much as a word picture of the affect that would occur with the lamp passing from the Jews to the Gentiles. It is very reminiscent of Paul's prophecy about the olive tree. [well the affect on the Jews is negative but the event itself was not evil/wrong, it pictures the emotion of the loss well]

This thread is awesome, this is one of those prophecies that really ties up the history and message of the scriptures in continuity. It is amazing how a word given to Benjamin so long ago has such major fruits later in time. It really speaks to the care God had for them and the weight He gave to fulfillment long delayed.

 

[Cap]

@Cap, I ran across something in the Testament of the Patriarchs /Benjamin (the last words of Benjamin to his sons) that I found to be somewhat startling and yet broadened my understanding of who Paul was and why he was used so immensely in the NT.

. . . And I shall no more be called a ravening wolf on account of your ravages, but a worker of the Lord, Distributing food to them that work what is good, and one shall rise up from my seed in the latter times, beloved of the Lord, hearing upon the earth his voice, enlightening with new knowledge all the Gentiles, bursting in upon Israel for salvation with the Light of knowledge, and tearing it away from it like a wolf, and giving it to the synagogue of the Gentiles. And until the consummation of the ages shall he be in the synagogue of the Gentiles, and among their rulers as a strain of music in the mouth of all; and he shall be inscribed in the Holy Books, both his work, and his word, and he shall be a chosen one of God forever; and because of him, my father Jacob instructed me, saying, He shall fill up that which is lacking of thy tribe.
Compare Genesis 49:27 (the last words of Jacob to Benjamin) Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

You can imagine my surprise when I was reading back through his epistles and ran across Romans 1:2. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures.)
I now understand this passage in an entirely new way.

There is more to the mystery of Paul than that, including why he is one of only a couple of men to have their tribe listed in the New Testament. There is also the friend of the bridegroom whose job it is to prepare the bride (as opposed to the one who declares “he is nigh, even at the door” John the Baptizer). And you have the example of the first Saul of the tribe of Benjamin.

Interesting point of view. Thanks for posting this information. As @Ancient Paths mentioned, I too have heard of the tribe of Benjamin being the bridge between the two sticks being bought together. I am not questioning Paul's purpose for God. I don't know why this is so hard for others to understand.

 

[Cap]

These testaments are expressly to the children of each of the sons of Jacob. This one in particular is in response to Jacob’s testament to Benjamin in Genesis 49. I believe that the ravening wolf that devours the prey in the morning (early days) was the first Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin, and the last Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin would be the one who divides or apportions the “prey” or the goodies to all in the evening (latter days)

This is were my questioning of what Paul's real purpose is. Since you have tied Saul of the OT to the Saul of the NT, there is a resemblance that is noticeable, and worth considering at least in my mind. The same can be said in the comparison of Paul (Saul) and Moses. Saul (OT) was selected (by God) because the men of that day wanted a king instead of God. One of the difficulties Moses had to face was that the children of Israel would rather follow a man instead of God. And here we have the NT Saul, on some cases, outweighing Christ in certain thought. The church pushes him more than any other messenger of God besides Moses. This is all interesting to me. And it makes me wonder about the human nature of being more comfortable in following a man then God when it comes right down to it.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

This collection of Last Words and Testaments of the Patriarchs was instrumental in focusing my attention on the importance of Last Words in Scripture. The book of Deuteronomy is literally the last words and testament of Moses.

I find it amazing the amount of prophecy that is found in these, especially Levi and Judah regarding Christ, including references to Christ being crucified by their descendants.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

1 Samuel 10:12. Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?

 

[Cap]

I believe that once we break free from the shackles the church has placed on us the works like you have @Verifyveritas76 will start pouring in, just like on the road to Emmaus.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Look at my signature (summarizing Luke 9:22-24) and then pair that with the Great Commission. Not only is that a key, base understanding of Christ's gospel, it is an understanding completely absent from virtually every American denominations presentation of the Gospel (and the lives of their parishioners). They are all very heavily focused on a free grace, ticket to heaven kind of Gospel that features heavily on Paul's writings ('by grace through faith'). Yes Paul doesn't leave out such aspects from Christ, but he is less direct about it.

We even have things like the Roman's Road, which presents solely out of one book written by Paul.

It's not that Paul said anything wrong, it's that he writes from a different and more pastoral perspective that emphasizes things differently. Between that and the relative volume of teachings, it is easy to focus heavily on Paul and neglect Christ and come out with something that has a different emphasis or character.

All the more so since the evangelical impulse is to attempt to convert as many as possible, which is quite different from Christ's approach to throw up hurdles and drive people away so that only the sheep would come (and not the goats).

@rockfox this first part isn't a response to you, but more something that that I feel like I have to say that you inspired

I'm gonna shift a bit and deal with something from my gut here. There's this.... stigma that keeps getting put back on paul. It backs off when challenged but creeps back in at the end. It falls short of an accusation, but my hackles are still raised and I do my best not to ignore that. So I'm gonna speak from the heart of my suspicions and see where it goes from there.

Did Paul speak as he was moved by the Holy Spirit or nah? If the answer is anything in the ballpark of "Nah, he was a decent christian and his writings are worthy of meditation, but he's a little off base with his focus and can be dangerous" then his letters are Apocrypha.

I hold that Christ never spoke a word of His own, and that Paul having the mind of Christ spoke what the Spirit directed him to. Christ and Paul may seem to be emphasizing different things, and Christ held back from what Paul threw himself into, but it was Christ who said "What I whisper in your ear, proclaim from the rooftops". If Paul hammered grace more than other things, and lacked a perceived balance, the right noble and true question is not "What is wrong with Paul?" but, "Why did the Spirit direct Paul to focus so much on grace?"

@rockfox So now that I've got that off my chest. What do you actually believe about paul and his writings? Are you sure? Are you unsure? Is it scripture? Is it not? Is it perfect? Is it mixed?

 

[PeteR]

I believe that once we break free from the shackles the church has placed on us the works like you have @Verifyveritas76 will start pouring in, just like on the road to Emmaus.

True... how many are buried in the Vatican or in Jewish libraries, known to be of value, but the words contained therein contradict the party line and must therefore be kept hidden?

 

[steve]

And it makes me wonder about the human nature of being more comfortable in following a man then God when it comes right down to it.

It started back a ways:
Exodus 20:18-21 (KJV) 18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God [was].

Deuteronomy 5:5 (KJV) (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,

Having a cut-out between you and YHWH is seemingly easier.

 

[PeteR]

One item to consider when reading Paul is that 'Gentiles' can also be translated 'nations' which more closely connects to OT prophecies about the restoration of Israel. See particularly Jeremiah 33, full chapter, to understand the 'new covenant,' who it is actually made with, what it would do and how we would know it has been fulfilled. (Hint, it hasn't been fulfilled, though we see shades of it... and, that idea torques all of Christendom.)

I really think Paul completely understood what we are just now beginning to assemble in these latter days. He saw and laid the foundation for the fulfillment of prophecy! AMAZING!

 

[steve]

For what it’s worth, I have no proof:

Heard a teaching in the distant past about Saul not coming from the tribe of Judah and why.
This mans point was that after that little Judah/Tamar kerfluffle, the progeny was not untainted for a certain number of generations.
The people demanded a king one generation too early and YHWH gave them a non-Judahite.
With the next generation He was able to pull from His desired line.

 

[PeteR]

For what it’s worth, I have no proof:

Heard a teaching in the distant past about Saul not coming from the tribe of Judah and why.
This mans point was that after that little Judah/Tamar kerfluffle, the progeny was not untainted for a certain number of generations.
The people demanded a king one generation too early and YHWH gave them a non-Judahite.
With the next generation He was able to pull from His desired line.

Interesting... my immediate question involves both Rahab and Ruth... foreignors inside the 10 generation window that leads to David.

 

[steve]

Interesting... my immediate question involves both Rahab and Ruth... foreignors inside the 10 generation window that leads to David.

A good observation and I have no intention to derail this thread.

 

[rockfox]

@rockfox So now that I've got that off my chest. What do you actually believe about paul and his writings? Are you sure? Are you unsure? Is it scripture? Is it not? Is it perfect? Is it mixed?

I am sure it is scripture, inspired by God. Paul says it, Peter confirms it. Church tradition upholds it. No doubts.