Polygyny IS a salvation issue.

[Mojo]

The only system with actual accountability is LOCAL government, ministered by biblically qualified men who fear YHWH and HATE EVIL!

Who determines the qualified? Who’s doctrinal perspective wins out? Who’s interpretation of Gods law reigns? But, I do agree that local governments are the best qualified.

We enjoy far better treatment from the atheists and non religious!
The salt lost it's savor somewhere!

And here you prove my point. Local governments not concerned with sectarian differences should give as much freedom to the groups of practitioners of faith as is reasonably possible. I’m sure that the council of believers that you yearn for would quickly find your family lifestyle to be anathema. You’re outside the mainstream. Would you like the Salem treatment? Libertarianism at its finest allows you to tell the “religious” to bugger off, not be ruled by their interpretation of scripture.

 

[MemeFan]

The only system with actual accountability is LOCAL government, ministered by biblically qualified men who fear YHWH and HATE EVIL! YHWH's law is merciful to the innocent.

There is no government in ancient Israel before kings.

If any family has family members who has legal right to kill murders, well that's anarchy in sense of political system.

State, in order to keep monopoly of violence, must centralize who can do legal violence.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

There is no government in ancient Israel before kings.

If any family has family members who has legal right to kill murders, well that's anarchy in sense of political system.

State, in order to keep monopoly of violence, must centralize who can do legal violence.

We have a whole book of the bible dedicated to Judges of Israel that ruled over matters before the Kings were established. God declared himself to be their king at that time and the fact that they wanted an earthly king was somewhat offensive to him.
So, yeah, there was a government. There was a taxation also... 10% which went to the one's also doing judgement and atonement. A legal system based on God's law.

 

[Heavens Declare]

But it is somehow different in the minds of most when their Dr tells them some pharmaceutical is necessary for their health.

Mormons would talk about Joseph Smith refusing liquor when his leg was operated on, but most of them have "medicine cabinets" full of scrips! Go figure!

Well when our son had a broken arm, they had to put him to sleep, so they used fentanol. That along with the other drugs they had given him at the previous place where they were unabvle to reset it, due to the pain being to great for the drugs that they did have on hand, put him in grave danger of going to sleep and not waking up again. We had to monitor his oxygen levels all night. That was quite an ordeal! The New Testament does in fact refer to medical doctors, obviously Luke being one of them, so I seriously doubt that use of medicines was what Paul had in mind. I strongly believe, there is a distinct difference between recreational drug use and medicinal use, and that he was referring to the former, not the latter.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Who determines the qualified?

YHWH already specified the qualifications for being a judge. He had to write with his own hand a copy of the Torah...and there were other qualifiers as I recall. Selection was made between biblically qualified men for available positions by the casting of lots.

Who’s doctrinal perspective wins out?

Doctrine really matters little where the law is clear Most issues are going to be violations of the ten commandments, with men in position to punish primarily crimes with victims. If someone "Broke the Sabath" who would bring the charges against the man?

Who’s interpretation of Gods law reigns?

How much interpretation can there be where the law is clear? Most doctrinal disputes are over matters of belief, (once saved always saved? The rapture? When to baptize or what name to use?) None of those differences would get in the way of ruling righteously when someone stole, or commited adultery.

Judges of Israel that ruled over matters before the Kings were established.

Yes!

There was a taxation also... 10% which went to the one's also doing judgement and atonement.

Actually once a tithe was taken only ten percent of the increase in subsequent tears.
This assured the people could all prosper

Anyone who considers themselves a believer should read the full volume work at the top of this page. I have recommended this book many times over the years. It is the single most eye opening thing I have ever read. It is available online...FREE which is where I read it many years ago.
It might even be able to pusuade Mojo that a patriarchal Theocracy would work

 

[Otto]

1) Imperfect man is an imperfect vessel to administer perfect laws. It’s going to get screwed up somewhere and end up doing God a disservice.

2) Historical evidence to support that doubt. The Massachusetts colony and the civil administrations of Calvin and Zwingli left many ruined or dead. In the name of righteousness, many members of non-aligned groups (Moravians, Anabaptists, Quakers, etc) were persecuted in the name of a civil theocracy. Those theocrats were convinced they were administering God’s laws, when it was often their opinions that they were protecting.

The Law of God is very clear in most places. It's just people don't like what it says. How would it look like? Some examples:

For example - "Thou shall not murder."

But what if a thief comes into your house at night, and you shot him in the head? Police would ask him - why did you slay him? "The heck I know if he wanted to kill me, rape my wife, or what his intentions were?

The Law of God is CLEAR - he is not guilty of murder:

Exodus 22:2
“If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

But if it happens during the day - the person would be guilty of murder.

----------------------
What if it's an accident? Numbers 35:22-29 details the process for that too.

----------------------
What about Sabbath? Simple - have most businesses closed that day. With exceptions for things like hospitals. As the Lord Jesus (Yahoshua) said - which man wouldn't go forth and save his son from danger - even on the Sabbath?

----------------------

What about kidnappers with 2 or more witnesses? Death penalty. Case closed.

------------------------

What about murderers with 2 or more witnesses? Death penalty. Case closed.

-------------------------

Homosexuals and Trans would be absolutely forbidden from being promoted in any entertainment. Anyone caught practicing homosexuality with at least 2 witnesses - death penalty - case closed. People may say - That's cruel! Yea - look at the fruit of abandoning the Creator's Instruction. It's celebrated with an entire PRIDE month for it (with a rainbow for provocation). Under this law - the few doing it would be doing it in secret behind closed doors - and NOT teaching it to little children (who don't know any better), that it's okay to commit abominations.

---------------------------

Night clubs that are open till late for the youth to get drunk - dance around - have sexual relations with strangers - closed down. Push the idea of men providing a covering - being the head, protector, and provider for his own household. Have that be the role model for young men - NOT - men that sleep around. But men that build themselves and work hard, so they can take on several wives and be leaders in their community.

----------------------------
It's just a few examples of the Law of God being implemented outside of the Land of Israel.

The issue: It's beyond politically in-correct. These changes can't be done today without Divine Interference. We're too far gone. We're on the Titanic after it already hit the iceberg. Best advice is from Joshua:

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve YHVH.”

 

[Mojo]

It might even be able to pusuade Mojo that a patriarchal Theocracy would work

I never said it couldn’t work. It would have to be super small scale (tribal?), local, and by charter/contract. Large scale National will not work.

Even fairly like minded folks on BF can’t agree on some simple issues. Try that on a National scale with believer and non believer alike???? Nope. Not gonna happen. Pie in the sky.

But I love you and your family. I’m sure I could join your local compact and get along well enough

 

[MemeFan]

We have a whole book of the bible dedicated to Judges of Israel that ruled over matters before the Kings were established. God declared himself to be their king at that time and the fact that they wanted an earthly king was somewhat offensive to him.
So, yeah, there was a government. There was a taxation also... 10% which went to the one's also doing judgement and atonement. A legal system based on God's law.

I'm talking time before kings. And even with kings it's possible there wasn't state, just proto-state.

It's role of avenger of blood which stops formation of state. This is easiest way in practice find is society stateless or not.

If someone murders your family member, who does punishment? In stateless society, you, in statefull society official.

Presence of judge or kings doesn't forbid avenger of blood from sending murderers to next world. For state to exist, it would have to forbid them or allow them only to work with state licence.

Lord declarimg Himself king has zero influence on what type of society is. Type is decided by interhuman relationships, not who is ruling.

Do you know USA had Emperor? So USA was monarchy? Never, Emperor was considered as joke.

Emperor Norton - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And taxes payed would be called today 10% tax on agricultural produce and was used to feed priests since they were without source of income.

 

[Otto]

What about false witnesses? They seem to have a lot of power. Here is what their punishment is if they bear false witness:

Deuteronomy 19:16-20
“If a malicious witness comes forward and accuses someone of a crime, 17then both the accuser and accused must appear before YHVH by coming to the priests and judges in office at that time. 18 The judges must investigate the case thoroughly. If the accuser has brought false charges against his fellow Israelite, 19 you must impose on the accuser the sentence he intended for the other person. In this way, you will purge such evil from among you. 20 Then the rest of the people will hear about it and be afraid to do such an evil thing.

So if a witness was seeking the death penalty for his neighbor - and gave false testimony - that false witness gets the death penalty imposed on himself.

The hippy Jesus you see on television is NOT the real one. The Real one rules with an iron scepter:

Revelation 2:27
‘He shall rule them with an iron scepter; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father;

Psalm 2:6-12
YHVH said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father. 8 Only ask, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance, the whole earth as your possession. 9 You will break them with an iron scepter and smash them like clay pots.’” 10 Now then, you kings, act wisely! Be warned, you rulers of the earth! 11 Serve YHVH with reverent fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Submit to God’s royal son, or he will become angry, and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities— for his anger flares up in an instant. But what joy for all who take refuge in him!

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Even fairly like minded folks on BF can’t agree on some simple issues. Try that on a National scale with believer and non believer alike???? Nope. Not gonna happen. Pie in the sky.

Excuse me.......you call yourself a believer......but are speaking disbelief!

Yet in all seriousness I told a neighbor years ago that as a nation we needed to go back to YHWH's (God's) law, and she said something similar to what you said...(that will never happen) but here is Revelation 11:15

15Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

YHWH speaks of things yet to be as if they are done already.
Believers have already been praying "Thy kingdom come" for 2000 years....but that does NOT mean it won't happen!

The other factor you are not considering is that YHWH ONLY AUTHORIZED BELIEVERS TO HOLD POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

We are in violation of His instructions when we even allow a non believer, a "secular" individual, an atheist, a satanist, a woman, or a illegitimate child grown up, or a man "wounded in the stones" to enter "the congregation of The Lord (YHWH)."
This instruction did not prevent such people from fellowship as believers, keeping Passover, etc. because it was a position of public service like being a judge....NOT excluding such people from faith or worship.
Then too, if the judge has to go by the book...and ANYONE can call a judge out for a ruling not in harmony with the book we all have. ...the judge can only go as far as the local men let him.
But I can tell you have not read the book contrasting Bible Law with the US Constitution.

The issue: It's beyond politically in-correct. These changes can't be done today without Divine Interference.

It is called intervention....otherwise known to His people as salvation. He interferes with the plans of the wicked.

 

[Mojo]

Excuse me.......you call yourself a believer......but are speaking disbelief!

Yet in all seriousness I told a neighbor years ago that as a nation we needed to go back to YHWH's (God's) law, and she said something similar to what you said...(that will never happen) but here is Revelation 11:15

15Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

YHWH speaks of things yet to be as if they are done already.
Believers have already been praying "Thy kingdom come" for 2000 years....but that does NOT mean it won't happen!

The other factor you are not considering is that YHWH ONLY AUTHORIZED BELIEVERS TO HOLD POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

We are in violation of His instructions when we even allow a non believer, a "secular" individual, an atheist, a satanist, a woman, or a illegitimate child grown up, or a man "wounded in the stones" to enter "the congregation of The Lord (YHWH)."
This instruction did not prevent such people from fellowship as believers, keeping Passover, etc. because it was a position of public service like being a judge....NOT excluding such people from faith or worship.
Then too, if the judge has to go by the book...and ANYONE can call a judge out for a ruling not in harmony with the book we all have. ...the judge can only go as far as the local men let him.
But I can tell you have not read the book contrasting Bible Law with the US Constitution.


It is called intervention....otherwise known to His people as salvation. He interferes with the plans of the wicked.

I agree that there will be a worldwide theocracy and kingdom ruled by our Lord and using his divine and eternal Law. I just happen to believe it’s in the future.

I also agree that our US Constitution is not equitable to Bible Law. I’ll go even further to proclaim that the establishment of our nation was not accomplished by biblical means either. But I live in the reality that I can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I mostly espouse the two kingdoms doctrine held by many of us who grew up in the non aligned churches (Baptist, Ana Baptist, etc). We live within the kingdoms of man (imperfect and often profane) but internally are a part of the spiritual kingdom of God. Where they intersect, we rejoice. Where they diverge, we conscientiously and peacefully object.

 

[Mark C]

I also agree that our US Constitution is not equitable to Bible Law.

Ouch. The Constitution, arguably, doesn't apply much any more (it hasn't for many years) - but those who have read it (thus excluding 90% of Congress) know that much of it is VERY consistent with Scripture. I could name a dozen provisions without stopping for breath. In fact, Deuteronomy is, by far, THE most quoted Book of the entire Founding Era, and also forms the basis of much of the English Common Law.

Bottom line: whatever it was, it was much closer to "real Law" than what has replaced it now.

 

[Otto]

We are in this position as punishment for the sins of our ancestors. We should be thankful we have a way back - individually - through the atoning blood of the Father’s Son.

But this is where we are:

Hosea 3:4 (KJV)
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim.

The next verse is where we are going:

Verse 5 (KJV)

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek YHVH their God, and David their king; and shall fear YHVH and his goodness in the latter days.

The idea that any western Christian nation is going to suddenly repent, and turn back to the Father’s law of grace in full - is not realistic or prophetically accurate.

I agree that the Constitution has laws that are grounded in Torah, but it has been rendered outdated and powerless.

Jeremiah 23:7-8 (NKJV)
7 Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says YHVH, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As YHVH lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As YHVH lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

And if the Christian churches in America speak against the Torah - then how much more so the woke crowd? Which candidate wants to build his platform on a law that all sides hate? You’d have a worse following than Ron Paul. The problem is with the flesh:

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

That’s why there needs to be a divine interference - a re gathering - a judgment - and a King ruling with an iron scepter - then there can be peace and fulfillment of Isaiah Chapter 2.

 

[Mojo]

Ouch. The Constitution, arguably, doesn't apply much any more (it hasn't for many years) - but those who have read it (thus excluding 90% of Congress) know that much of it is VERY consistent with Scripture. I could name a dozen provisions without stopping for breath. In fact, Deuteronomy is, by far, THE most quoted Book of the entire Founding Era, and also forms the basis of much of the English Common Law.

Bottom line: whatever it was, it was much closer to "real Law" than what has replaced it now.

Influenced? Yes. But the two documents don’t really touch on the same things. The USConstitution provides a framework for running a government, not a civic or religious legal code. The legal codes were established later.

If anything, the Constitution was influenced more by Baptists, Quakers and other dissenters who insisted that the kingdom of men not try to establish a kingdom of God. The separation of church and state is a faith based concept. I don’t care what conservative fundraisers try to tell us. The Massachusetts colony experiment was not well liked by many, but especially the Baptists and their ilk. Baptist creeds specifically argue for soul liberty and separation of church and state. Theocracy was not desired. Render into Cesar…render unto God.

 

[Mark C]

But the two documents don’t really touch on the same things. The US Constitution provides a framework for running a government, not a civic or religious legal code. The legal codes were established later.

Briefly:

The Constitution provides for a framework based on 'separation of powers.' Read Isaiah 33:22; that's where they got it. "And in His hands ONLY," said James Madison, "should those powers" be combined in a single fallen man, or group.

How many witnesses for treason - which carries the death penalty? Where'd they get that?

The English common law - contract, bailment, agency, trespass, and so on - is incorporated by reference twice.

Honest weights and measures? (Deut. 25:13-19, among others) - "Nothing but gold and silver COIN shall be made ...[money] ...a tender in payment of debt."

Murder, kidnap, theft -- ALL defined in Scripture -- are also ALL State-level crimes. There is no delegation (and no need) for them to be 'federal.'

And the oath(s) - Numbers 30, and also Deut. 23:24.

The Bill of Rights is about JURISDICTION. "Congress shall make NO law..." [they do NOT have the Authority!] to prohibit* the worship of YHVH, nor, if we read the document, to say ANYTHING about...marriage...education...health...or any of a myriad of things that are outside that enumerated jurisdiction.

And so on.



It was a decent attempt. But when men don't honor their vows "before God" - futile.






-----------------------------------
* PS> That mythical 'separation' is NOT in the document, or the First Amendment. As most know, it appeared only in a letter by Jefferson to the 'Danbury Baptists,' referenced later [and out of context] by the USSC, and was described specifically as a "one-way" wall - prohibiting ONLY Big Brother from stepping out of its box. In other words, it is an explicit PROHIBITION on the government from trying to become "another master" which Scripture warned of.

 

[Mojo]

Briefly:

The Constitution provides for a framework based on 'separation of powers.' Read Isaiah 33:22; that's where they got it. "And in His hands ONLY," said James Madison, "should those powers" be combined in a single fallen man, or group.

How many witnesses for treason - which carries the death penalty? Where'd they get that?

The English common law - contract, bailment, agency, trespass, and so on - is incorporated by reference twice.

Honest weights and measures? (Deut. 25:13-19, among others) - "Nothing but gold and silver COIN shall be made ...[money] ...a tender in payment of debt."

Murder, kidnap, theft -- ALL defined in Scripture -- are also ALL State-level crimes. There is no delegation (and no need) for them to be 'federal.'

And the oath(s) - Numbers 30, and also Deut. 23:24.

The Bill of Rights is about JURISDICTION. "Congress shall make NO law..." [they do NOT have the Authority!] to prohibit* the worship of YHVH, nor, if we read the document, to say ANYTHING about...marriage...education...health...or any of a myriad of things that are outside that enumerated jurisdiction.

And so on.



It was a decent attempt. But when men don't honor their vows "before God" - futile.






-----------------------------------
* PS> That mythical 'separation' is NOT in the document, or the First Amendment. As most know, it appeared only in a letter by Jefferson to the 'Danbury Baptists,' referenced later [and out of context] by the USSC, and was described specifically as a "one-way" wall - prohibiting ONLY Big Brother from stepping out of its box. In other words, it is an explicit PROHIBITION on the government from trying to become "another master" which Scripture warned of.

I don’t disagree that much of the Constitution is faith based, but it’s not a biblical legal code. There is only one of those (God’s beloved Torah).

And I’m not saying that Christian men shouldn’t be involved in government or try to influence it. I know full well that “separation of church and state” is not in the constitution or any other founding document. I’m saying that it was a well known principle dating back to Baptist Roger Williams and Rhode Island. George Mason and others in Virginia would not sign onto the new constitution if it did not explicitly state rights to all, and especially religious minorities. The “no establishment by Congress” of a state church was essential to getting the non aligned Baptists and others on board. The secular government has no business running church matters. Full Stop. Period.

And…I don’t want any church or exalted “man of God” purporting to run my government. It’s likely I would disagree with him/them and I’d be banished. We have written historical precedence to look at in our nation. The Salem theocrats didn’t just look for true witches. They looked for dissenters and subversives of all kinds. All of us on this site would be in their crosshairs. They claimed to be running the Kingdom of God here on earth according to biblical law. Imperfect men eventually turn the perfect into a mockery.

 

[Mark C]

Agreed - I never claimed the Constitution was a 'Biblical legal code' - just that much of it was consistent with elements/concepts described therein.

Case in point:

And…I don’t want any church or exalted “man of God” purporting to run my government.

Don't sweat that. I've been more concerned that literal men (and women, and trannies, and literal abominations) of - literally - Satan ('hasatan - the adversary) have been running it for over a century.

It is no leap to say that whatever has been "running" the thing that replaced the Constitutional Republic has a literal, undisguised, visceral HATRED of YHVH, His Word, and all those who believe in the "self-evident Truths" that earlier men of the Founding Era wrote about.

I haven't called it "my" government for years.

 

[Mojo]

Agreed - I never claimed the Constitution was a 'Biblical legal code' - just that much of it was consistent with elements/concepts described therein.

Case in point:



Don't sweat that. I've been more concerned that literal men (and women, and trannies, and literal abominations) of - literally - Satan ('hasatan - the adversary) have been running it for over a century.

It is no leap to say that whatever has been "running" the thing that replaced the Constitutional Republic has a literal, undisguised, visceral HATRED of YHVH, His Word, and all those who believe in the "self-evident Truths" that earlier men of the Founding Era wrote about.

I haven't called it "my" government for years.

Then we mostly agree on most of the big stuff, especially that we’re being governed by reprobates.

I’m not sure what’s worse, though. Governance by reprobates, or governance by Reconstructionists like Doug Wilson. I just have an ick for that guy. I wouldn’t want his posse in charge either. I guess the Baptist/Anabaptist ethic of Soul liberty and Separation is too much engrained in me.

I will wait for the reign of Christ.

 

[Joleneakamama]

The Bill of Rights is about JURISDICTION. "Congress shall make NO law..." [they do NOT have the Authority!] to prohibit* the worship of YHVH, nor, if we read the document, to say ANYTHING about...marriage...education...health...or any of a myriad of things that are outside that enumerated jurisdiction.

And so on.

Yes jurisdiction is the issue....and they made an arguably good attempt at limiting the government. ...but everyone has a blind side and theirs was in thinking they could create an AUTHORITY STRUCTURE AT ALL. ....and control it. When they authorized congress to "MAKE LAW" AT ALL....they created a humanistic baall government where "we the people" are supposedly the highest authority in the land....like their treasonous to YHWH constitution they wrote. All things and people are truly subject to the will of YHWH and He only let them "see" some of the problems with the English monarchy and parliment. They grew up accepting a certain amount of man made "authority" and so like the Israelites of old they (thought they) wanted a (king) government of their own making....instead of YHWH's perfect law of liberty.
And here we are.

 

[Otto]

I will wait for the reign of Christ.

Amein.

I saw this one lady post that she’s moving to Netherlands after the trans school shooting.

I think to myself - is not Europe worse? They are preparing for a wider war against Russia. They have an islamic migrant problem. Their laws are not much different than the USA’s, and the citizens don’t have guns. That might sound all well, but what happens when war breaks out? And the migrants are running loose raping, stealing, and murdering? What then if you don't have access to guns?

Her problem is that she's likely working, and sending her children to school/day care. When the solution is to 'come out of her.' Don't send your children to places that have no fear of YHVH.