Seriously, you couldn’t seduce a girl and thus have control of the situation.
If you were not what her father was willing to accept, no contract could be made to suffice.
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Practical Implications of Numbers 30
- Thread starter Maddog
- Start date
Seriously, you couldn’t seduce a girl and thus have control of the situation.
If you were not what her father was willing to accept, no contract could be made to suffice.
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
Another verse that helps to establish the age of 20 as the age of a man shows that God holds him personally accountable after the age of 20.
Num 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Under the age of 20, their obedience to their father would be their righteousness. After the age of 20, they must make those decisions and be responsible for the outcome.
This verse is case in point. If the Father said that we are NOT keeping Sabbath, circumcism etc as they walked through the wilderness, their sons would have to obey them in that as well. To disobey is sin. Once the son is standing before Yah directly (after the age of 20) he must do what his headship (God) tells him to do. The authority structure has changed for him and he is now accountable to his new headship.
This is true for when a daughter marries a man. The things her father commanded her were binding upon her until she has a new headship. Then the commands of the new headship are what she must obey...
What does Numbers 30 have to do with establishing a marriage? The same concept applies to a married woman so clearly this has nothing to do with forming one flesh.
Numbers 30 controls what it claims to control, oaths made to God; nothing more, nothing less.
Alright, let’s not do this. We all know how it ends. Let me try and state both sides and let’s leave it there:
This debate hinges on whether or not a father has the right to choose his daughter’s husband. The Bible itself never directly makes this claim but there is no doubt that the authority of fathers is highly valued in the text.
The proof text that most of the proponents of this view go to is Exodus 22:16-17 “ 16 ¶ “If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
17 “If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall fnpay money equal to the dowry for virgins.” NASB95
The opposing view, which I and @MemeFan adhere to and is very much in the minority here, is that there is no command to secure a father’s permission to marry a woman. There are situations where this is explicit in scripture. A widow can marry whom she chooses for instance. And since there is no direct instruction to get the father’s permission one can not be imposed.
Both arguments have far more substance behind them than this but they have been discussed quite often on the forum. If anyone wants to reply that ground start a new thread and label it “meat”.
Let’s keep this thread focused on the practical application of Numbers 30.
This debate hinges on whether or not a father has the right to choose his daughter’s husband. The Bible itself never directly makes this claim but there is no doubt that the authority of fathers is highly valued in the text.
The proof text that most of the proponents of this view go to is Exodus 22:16-17 “ 16 ¶ “If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
17 “If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall fnpay money equal to the dowry for virgins.” NASB95
The opposing view, which I and @MemeFan adhere to and is very much in the minority here, is that there is no command to secure a father’s permission to marry a woman. There are situations where this is explicit in scripture. A widow can marry whom she chooses for instance. And since there is no direct instruction to get the father’s permission one can not be imposed.
Both arguments have far more substance behind them than this but they have been discussed quite often on the forum. If anyone wants to reply that ground start a new thread and label it “meat”.
Let’s keep this thread focused on the practical application of Numbers 30.
And if daughter is married at 18, whom she should obey?
Father or husband?
You need to think this throught and ask yourself are there any exceptions?
When marriage according to Bible starts? Which action establishes marriage?
What is described ceremony? Who are "officials" who can proclaim ceremony? There are none.
Sex is only thing which makes marriage different from any other relationship. Therefore it must sex itself which establishes marriage. And silence in Bible about "proper procedure" is proof it must be sex since Bible never directly mentions sex (just like here).
We can speak about marriage contracts. Makes sense to clarify expectations and duties in advance to avoid conflicts and disappointments in future. But signing marriage contact and avoiding sex is like signing employment contract and avoiding coming to job. Both are proof you aren't serious about marriage/job.
Besides, what would you put in marriage contract? Marriage duties (another word for sex), child care (consequnce of sex), how to live together (easier to have sex when you are together), how to stay attractive to each other (weight control for her is about making him willing to have sex for him).
We need to bring back law where avoiding sex is breach of marriage itself.
Then her father can prostitute daughter.
Daughter makes her available for gift and father refuses marriage. Next man, please.
@The Revolting Man
I have answered before I have seen your message to start new meat thread. Feel free to move my recent posts there.
I have answered before I have seen your message to start new meat thread. Feel free to move my recent posts there.