Prayer request Pray for the people of Israel

[Keith Martin]

Shared without commentary on my part: an interview today by my wife Kristin's boss, Abe Schear, with former Israeli Ambassador to the United States, Danny Ayalon. He is calling for/predicting an upcoming constitutional change to separate Church and State for Israel a la in the U.S., to create equality among all Jews.

Interesting.

https://vimeo.com/agglaw/interviewdannyayalon?share=copy

 

[FollowingHim]

The death toll continues to rise as bodies are discovered, it's now up to 1200 Israelis. Fortunately the IDF seems to be on top of things inside Israel now, so this death toll is no longer rising, they're just discovering the bodies.

The Palestinian death toll on the other hand continues to climb rapidly, now at 900 but rising very fast as:

• Many apartment blocks have already been destroyed by Israel, with civilians trapped under the rubble, many of whom will not yet have been able to be counted (if ever), so are not yet included in those figures. In one case, an entire neighbourhood including eight 12-storey apartment buildings has been levelled (al-Karama). Locals report that they can hear people trapped under the rubble calling for help, but no civil defence or red cross assistance has reached them.
• The only power station in Gaza will run out of fuel in 12 hours. Generators at the hospitals will also run out of fuel about the same time. Added to the severe depletion of medical supplies, that means that hospitals will barely be able to function from tomorrow, so many injured will end up dead. Israel is not allowing fuel and medical supplies in.
• Israel is preparing a ground invasion which will be launched soon.

While in the north, Syria has now launched missiles at the Golan heights as a warning, just as Hezbollah has. There's a high likelihood of an attack not only from Lebanon but also from Syria should Israel move into Gaza. That attack would most likely come as a missile barrage, but proper military missiles this time not the comparatively small homebuilt rockets Hamas uses. The ammunition supply for the Iron Dome system will have been severely depleted by the thousands of small rockets already launched from Gaza, which will limit Israel's ability to defend against more powerful missiles from Lebanon and Syria. So if that eventuates, the Israeli civilian death toll will in turn go up sharply.

And the rhetoric on both sides is overwhelmingly to escalate, so at this stage all the above seems inevitable. But God is in control and may have a plan that none of us can see to stop this bloodshed.

 

[FollowingHim]

 

[steve]

Shared without commentary on my part: an interview today by my wife Kristin's boss, Abe Schear, with former Israeli Ambassador to the United States, Danny Ayalon. He is calling for/predicting an upcoming constitutional change to separate Church and State for Israel a la in the U.S., to create equality among all Jews.

Interesting.

https://vimeo.com/agglaw/interviewdannyayalon?share=copy

That was very informative.
Much thanx.

 

[steve]

I will point out that the Gazans were warned to leave the areas where Hamas is concentrated. To make a tent city out in the desert for a couple of weeks.
The sooner that the populace gets out of the way for the clean out, the sooner that life can resume normally.
Diesel should have been reserved for the hospital generators instead of just running as normal.

 

[steve]

Just a reminder that when an Islamic terrorist is killed in service to their god, they believe that their entire family is guaranteed a place in paradise.
Killing non-muslins, especially Christians and Jews, is a grand achievement and guarantees their spot.

 

[frederick]

And the antisemitism is spreading around the world. Pro-terrorist/anti-Israel marches are taking place in many cities including in Australia, New Zealand, UK, USA, etc. Conflict may spread.

 

[MemeFan]

If the people of Gaza would throw the heads of the terrorists over the fence to the IDF and send the hostages back, the Gazans could be free. If the Lebanese and Iranians did the same, the Middle East would be a different place. Read 2 Samuel 20:16-22; it seems simple and straightforward. But then again the globalist warmongers would have to stir up conflict somewhere else so they can kill and destroy.

Problem is that both sides are guilty of terrorism. Just because one side stops, doesn't mean other side will stop.

 

[FollowingHim]

I will point out that the Gazans were warned to leave the areas where Hamas is concentrated. To make a tent city out in the desert for a couple of weeks.
The sooner that the populace gets out of the way for the clean out, the sooner that life can resume normally.
Diesel should have been reserved for the hospital generators instead of just running as normal.

What desert? Gaza is mostly city, plus some intensive farmland. And the border crossings are all closed - Israel has closed theirs, and bombed the border crossing into Egypt to force the Egyptians to close that one. There is no desert to flee to.

The warnings are a PR campaign from Israel, they make it sound like they're genuinely trying to avoid civilian casualties, even though everyone on the ground knows it doesn't work. Those who do try and flee to places that seem like they should be safe under international law - hospitals and UN-controlled schools - find that occasionally those are bombed also. This morning I even saw a photo of an ambulance that has been blown up. There is nowhere safe.

Maybe this side of the story is ignored by the media sources you are following?

 

[steve]

The point is that they can get away from the population centers.

 

[FollowingHim]

The point is that they can get away from the population centers.

Not as easily as a map like that would suggest, because the purple areas are only the absolute most intensively populated. Much of the white area is unsuitable also. Just look at an aerial photo instead and think "if I were there, where would I go"?

Even your above map shows that most of the more rural area is along the Israeli border, and that area people are fleeing because it is an active warzone. Moving towards the sea, most of the strip is built up. You could go to the beach, but that won't fit the whole population, and it is well known that in the 2014 war Israel even killed civilians on the beach itself as that received considerable media coverage (incidents Israel called accidents, and which probably were accidents, but will be fresh in the minds of Gaza residents).

But wherever you think is a good place to flee to, Hamas will think the same thing and probably go there also, drawing the war to you anyway.

There are some patches of open ground, not enough for everyone to go to but they do exist. But then you'd be in the open with nowhere to hide, and if shrapnel or bullets start flying you'd be in a death trap. So maybe you'd be better off staying in the city and hoping your building was one that wasn't bombed, at least you'd have a wall to hide behind if shooting happens in your street.

That is the dilemma actually facing Gaza residents. Seriously - look at an aerial photo, put yourself in the middle of Gaza city, and think "what would I actually do" remembering there are over 2 million other people around you trying to do the same thing and likely already crowding whatever spot you see that looks good to flee to. And some of those will be Hamas in plain clothes, possibly known to Israel but not to you.

The only way to actually let civilians flee without Hamas would be to open a border crossing and use extremely strict screening to identify civilians and allow them out while keeping Hamas in.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Problem is that both sides are guilty of terrorism. Just because one side stops, doesn't mean other side will stop.

This is a damnable lie and if you want to see the numbers I’ll show them to you.

 

[frederick]

Problem is that both sides are guilty of terrorism. Just because one side stops, doesn't mean other side will stop.

If the Arab terrorists laid down their weapons and sought genuine peace there would be peace. If Israel laid down its weapons and sought genuine peace the Arab terrorists would murder every last man, woman, and child. End of story!

 

[FollowingHim]

Problem is that both sides are guilty of terrorism. Just because one side stops, doesn't mean other side will stop.

I can see this thread very rapidly descending into a very ugly fight if we don't all take care to approach this carefully. Remember how our Ukraine discussion has gone - Israel is a far more powerful flashpoint for us given that people have much deeper feelings about it. Sharing news, and discussing practical realities particularly as they relate to people we know and the church in general, should be able to be done without descending into a vicious argument.

However, attaching emotive labels like "terrorism" to a side that others will strongly object to that label being applied to, even if you believe the label is technically justifiable, is not going to be helpful. All that will trigger is an argument, and we don't need that sort of fight.

This is a marriage ministry. We've tried discussing geopolitics calmly with regards to Ukraine and we know we cannot collectively do it, for whatever reason. We don't need to trigger arguments that are going to be unhelpful.

I will discuss with @The Revolting Man how we can best keep a lid on this aspect of the discussion, where we should draw the line. And I'm not claiming I haven't crossed it already myself - maybe I have. But it would greatly help us if everyone would just moderate their own conversation and avoid statements that will obviously trigger an inevitable argument. Thankyou everyone.

This is a very important situation, it may turn out to be one of the most consequential events of our lifetimes. Let's try and draw together as a Body as we discuss it, not splinter into factions.

 

[frederick]

Psalm 59:5 You therefore, O Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel,
Awake to punish all the nations;
Do not be merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah (NKJV)

May the righteous and Holy God of Israel bring His peace to the Land, and to His people wherever they are scattered.

 

[MemeFan]

This is a damnable lie and if you want to see the numbers I’ll show them to you.

Table with dead from bombing attacts won't matter. Point is behaviour and dynamics of conflict.

This conflict is simmering for decades and it's impossible not to do attrocities by both sides. Israel may not use suicide bombers, but depriving population of food and water is punishing innocent with guilty.

Problem is that even if your side "gets decent", why wouldn't other side find that "decency" as weakness to be exploited?

And even if both sides want peace, both sides will have warlike factions which want opposite. How will they be keept under control?

If the Arab terrorists laid down their weapons and sought genuine peace there would be peace. If Israel laid down its weapons and sought genuine peace the Arab terrorists would murder every last man, woman, and child. End of story!

Did you forget Israel is ethnostate? Does Israel welcomes Arabs as Germany and USA immigrants. Nope.

So second-status for Arabs and marginalization. So they won't be happy. And whaf if Israel refuses any reform like not treating Arabs as second citizens? If peaceful resolution isn't possible there is only violence.

 

[steve]

Not as easily as a map like that would suggest, because the purple areas are only the absolute most intensively populated. Much of the white area is unsuitable also. Just look at an aerial photo instead and think "if I were there, where would I go"?

Even your above map shows that most of the more rural area is along the Israeli border, and that area people are fleeing because it is an active warzone. Moving towards the sea, most of the strip is built up. You could go to the beach, but that won't fit the whole population, and it is well known that in the 2014 war Israel even killed civilians on the beach itself as that received considerable media coverage (incidents Israel called accidents, and which probably were accidents, but will be fresh in the minds of Gaza residents).

But wherever you think is a good place to flee to, Hamas will think the same thing and probably go there also, drawing the war to you anyway.

There are some patches of open ground, not enough for everyone to go to but they do exist. But then you'd be in the open with nowhere to hide, and if shrapnel or bullets start flying you'd be in a death trap. So maybe you'd be better off staying in the city and hoping your building was one that wasn't bombed, at least you'd have a wall to hide behind if shooting happens in your street.

That is the dilemma actually facing Gaza residents. Seriously - look at an aerial photo, put yourself in the middle of Gaza city, and think "what would I actually do" remembering there are over 2 million other people around you trying to do the same thing and likely already crowding whatever spot you see that looks good to flee to. And some of those will be Hamas in plain clothes, possibly known to Israel but not to you.

The only way to actually let civilians flee without Hamas would be to open a border crossing and use extremely strict screening to identify civilians and allow them out while keeping Hamas in.

What you are not factoring in is that Israel is bombing Hamas’s hard assets. Assets that they hide in populated areas.
The locals know what is in their neighborhoods.
The bullets will not be flying from IDF fire until they have boots on the ground.
So the safest places are going to be away from Hamas strongholds, and everyone knows that. Well, everyone except for outsiders who see it all as generic and the bombing as indiscriminate.

 

[MemeFan]

I have no bone in this conflict.

I know this is true:

1. Both sides heavily use PR. So expect stories favoring one sides and pushing only their viewpoint
2. Conflict to be understood must be wieved from perspectives of all sides
3. This isn't court or negotiation. So there is no procedural fairness. Only how other side can punish/reward me. For example: In your side has taken less prisoners than other side, it's smart move to start prisoner's execution?
4. Beware of anything connected with children. Universally, children abusers are seen as evil. So, creating incidents can and probably is used for moral justification.
5. Your moral values will be probably used against you and your best interests. Lockdown was never in best interest for most population, but we need to save hospitals. Expect same here. For example: they bombed our school full of children
6. Public support is valuable for both sides. Budget for this is in millions. You won't receive B-rate production of ad "Why my side is good and other evil"
7. If just one side wants whole territory no peace is peace is possible unless one of sides is exterminated or exiled.
8. It's in interest of leadership of both sides to sacrificide innocent of their own side to create outrage. Not saying their will do it, just there is temptation.
9. While usually framing of conflict is Jews vs Muslims, there are other people living there. Christians of both ethnicities are standing to lose a lot. Possible most, because if they don't choose side, both sides will treat them as enemies.
10. What matters is how both sides perceive their interest. Here beliefs and mindsets come into effect.
11. There are factions everywhere. So there will be infighting and discussion what is best
12. Both sides will try to motivate other side to do dumm stuff. For example, current Hamas plan is probably to create outrage in Israel to motivate ground invasion where Israel's army won't have advantage and will take heavy losses. Urban fighting will also create a lot of civilian casualties. From Hamas perspective, martyies and usefull fodder for outrage creation in rest of muslim world.

 

[FollowingHim]

What you are not factoring in is that Israel is bombing Hamas’s hard assets. Assets that they hide in populated areas.
The locals know what is in their neighborhoods.
The bullets will not be flying from IDF fire until they have boots on the ground.
So the safest places are going to be away from Hamas strongholds, and everyone knows that. Well, everyone except for outsiders who see it all as generic and the bombing as indiscriminate.

I am well aware that the Israeli propaganda line is that they are only targeting Hamas assets and strongholds. But when you view the actual scale of the destruction, this becomes implausible. Approximately 1000 homes have been destroyed so far. Did Hamas seriously have assets hidden in 1000 homes?

How about this flattened neighbourhood. Were Hamas assets seriously hidden in every one of these buildings? And this is just one of many such neighbourhoods.

You have to be acutely aware that both sides are engaged in propaganda. You cannot just pick a side you favour and believe all their propaganda, but must run both through a logical filter to determine which statements are plausible, which are likely exaggerated, and which are likely complete lies. In this case, Israel's account is implausible - they'll obviously be targetting Hamas, but the scale of the destruction shows they are clearly either also targeting civilian infrastructure, or using very inaccurate munitions that take out a whole neighbourhood in order to hit a small target.

The destruction in Gaza is covered in most detail by Aljazeera, because they've got reporters on the ground there. Obviously their opinions are biased to one side like most opinions are, but they're taking the relevant photographs.

Photos show scale of the destruction of Israel air attacks on Gaza

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been displaced across Gaza due to Israel’s air raids after Hamas’s attack.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[steve]

Israel's account is implausible - they'll obviously be targetting Hamas, but the scale of the destruction shows they are clearly either also targeting civilian infrastructure, or using very inaccurate munitions that take out a whole neighbourhood in order to hit a small target.

None of us has any intel on what has been going on in those neighborhoods.
The fact that Hamas uses any and all civilian resources is the problem.