Question often posed to me by non-believers about God allowing suffering.

[MemeFan]

I would much prefer a society that

than one that is good at math.

The fact is that the world could be a better place EVEN IF we all lived in tents and died at 30. Perhaps not a very innovative place, but better in terms of good vs. evil? Most definitely.

I also don't think @FollowingHim was stating we shouldn't explore those other fields of study. But the Word comes first, and IS enough.

It is not that simple.

Consider Marxists. They believe that rich fat capitalists are stealing from workers. So as God commands we must unleash state to punish these evildoers. So when starvation starts does it means that capitalists aren't punished enough?
Obviously, we must punish some more.

Without good knowledge of economics and correct property rights how would you know that Marxists are insane and above logic is false?

Second example. Man dies and everybody think is accident. Really? Or it local psychopath hiding his tracks and making murder looks like accident. Remember Uriel? David didn't kill him directly, just trying to create "accident".

Without good theory of criminal investigation detectives can't know if they did good job. A sloppy investigation means happy times for local psychopath. Just detectives unable to figure truth and business invest in safety, instead of security. How do you mean to punish murderers when you can't find them? Pick up first person on street and create false evidence?

Sorry guys, but Bible isn't enough to fulfill God's commands. We need knowledge not written there.

And nobody can claim that it is morally good when society does God's commandents as written in Bible, but kills itself because they have insane beliefs about food production. But since Bible is only truly important saints will go to heaven. That all that truly matters in this life (heavy irony).

 

[frederick]

I choose to believe that He does allow suffering, even of the innocent, yet can and will right the wrongs in His perfect time.

Yes indeed. He allowed the innocent spotless Lamb to be condemned and crucified so that the guilty could be justified. All who have His life are living proof that the Son conquered sin and death through His death, burial, and resurrection. Hallelujah!

 

[Joleneakamama]

Sorry guys, but Bible isn't enough to fulfill God's commands. We need knowledge not written there.

I absolutely disagree. YHWH was thorough enough to tell people out in the woods to bury their poop. I do believe he legislated every needed aspect.

Second example. Man dies and everybody think is accident. Really? Or it local psychopath hiding his tracks and making murder looks like accident. Remember Uriel? David didn't kill him directly, just trying to create "accident".

Without good theory of criminal investigation detectives can't know if they did good job. A sloppy investigation means happy times for local psychopath.

Your second paragraph would lead one to believe that David got away with his attempt at hiding his crime. Doesn't it rather reveal that nothing is unknown to YHWH?
The fact of the matter is people only claim to need more then YHWH's revealed moral standards when they forget or perhaps never believed in Him as the living God that rules His creation.
Lots of people calling themselves believers twist a single new testament verse and state with pretended authority that Satan is the God of this world.
I will forever stand with the first king of Babylon in affirming that The Most High rules over the kingdoms of men. To me this means He can and does execute judgement on people, including sociopaths and psychopaths.
We can create systems like the "rules of the road" to enable safer travel, but we should not think that we need more then the principles He revealed to order the world.

For reading that should persuade every thinking person to see things "My way"
Consider this work by an 18th century American minister who studied law.

Online Library of Liberty

And this work by another American student of Yah's law.

Welcome to Mission to Israel Ministries

If Christian Americans ever expect God to fulfill his half of 2 Chronicles 7:14, they must first repent of their national idolatry – their love affair with the humanistic, pluralistic, polytheistic, and antichristian United States Constitution.

www.missiontoisrael.org

If you read those you will likely realize that the state is an idol created by men....a false god....and a form of Baal worship. Then this matter

So as God commands we must unleash state to punish these evildoers.

Will also dissappear as YHWH will be the only recognized authority.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" takes on new meaning when you realize that YHWH IS GOVERNMENT!

Isaiah 33:22
YHWH is our judge, YHWH is our lawgiver, YHWH is our king; he will save us.

Why is our nation a mess? We authorized immoral people to USURP His place as our judge lawgiver and king....and the people bow to the man made idol created with the stroke of a pen.
I better stop now, but seriously ....read those links. Then tell me what you think about it all.

 

[Michael Moon]

Without good knowledge of economics and correct property rights how would you know that Marxists are insane and above logic is false?

"The rich and the poor meet together; the Lord is the Maker of them all." - Provervs 22:2 ESV

“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor." - Leviticus 19:15 ESV

“You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.” - Exondus 20:17 ESV

We won't need an economics degree or an understanding of American property rights id we

truly obey(ed) God and His word

Remember Uriel? David didn't kill him directly, just trying to create "accident".

Yeah, it sure sucks that they didn't have great detectives or forensic evidence back then. Maybe then someone could have revealed David's wicked deed and punished him for it...

Sorry for the sarcasm, there isn't anything wrong with detective work, but the idea that a people who are relying solely on Yah and His Word couldn't get by without good criminal investigation theories?? I don't buy it. Our Lord sent Nathan, not Magnum P.I.

And nobody can claim that it is morally good when society does God's commandents as written in Bible, but kills itself because they have insane beliefs about food production. But since Bible is only truly important saints will go to heaven. That all that truly matters in this life (heavy irony).

Why does trusting in the Word of the Almighty = primitivism in your mind? Yeshua said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". "THE truth" not "part of it".

It's "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". Not "Believe in Jesus and get a college degree in some other heaven approved extra-curricular".

 

[steve]

It is not that simple.

Consider Marxists. They believe that rich fat capitalists are stealing from workers. So as God commands we must unleash state to punish these evildoers. So when starvation starts does it means that capitalists aren't punished enough?
Obviously, we must punish some more.

Without good knowledge of economics and correct property rights how would you know that Marxists are insane and above logic is false?

Second example. Man dies and everybody think is accident. Really? Or it local psychopath hiding his tracks and making murder looks like accident. Remember Uriel? David didn't kill him directly, just trying to create "accident".

Without good theory of criminal investigation detectives can't know if they did good job. A sloppy investigation means happy times for local psychopath. Just detectives unable to figure truth and business invest in safety, instead of security. How do you mean to punish murderers when you can't find them? Pick up first person on street and create false evidence?

Sorry guys, but Bible isn't enough to fulfill God's commands. We need knowledge not written there.

And nobody can claim that it is morally good when society does God's commandents as written in Bible, but kills itself because they have insane beliefs about food production. But since Bible is only truly important saints will go to heaven. That all that truly matters in this life (heavy irony).

I’m sorry, but your thinking is too All-Or-Nothing.
The Bible is the basis for most of our laws and systems of justice. They should go together like a hand in a glove.

 

[Mark C]

Lots of value in some of the responses in here. But I'm with Steve, and suggest perhaps the most difficult concept in Scripture to understand is the one that literally makes 'adam' [mankind] who and what he is: free will, and the responsibility that comes WITH the choice.

Like it or not, He 'wired the universe' so that we suffer the consequences - for good or ill - of choices made by our fathers. From Adam, to Abraham, to the exiled 'lost tribes', to the American Founders, to the failures of our more recent forebears to honor their oaths and walk out what they claimed to believe.

My favorite verse (and, indeed, entire chapter) on the Whole Matter is Deuteronomy 30. And it makes the case:

"I have laid before you this day life and blessing, or death and cursing. Therefore, choose life, that you and your descendants might live."

And, in John 10:10, Yahushua emphasizes the point, noting that they might know to make the choice, but also have it "more abundantly."

The reason I'm such a curmudgeon about the whore church and whore synagogue both having "by your traditions made the instruction of YHVH of no effect" (all of Mark chapter 7) is because what we have been taught - and can see Writ Large in a society which has not only forgotten Him, but HATES Him - is to choose DEATH.

"Choose this day Whom you will serve..." is the start. And, again, Solomon at the end of Ecclesiastes summarizes 'the conclusion of the whole matter.'

"Fear Elohim, and keep His commandments. For this is the whole duty of man." [and, again, the Hebrew word there is 'adam'!]

PS> Shlomo/Solomon in what I think is the best explanation I've seen of the engineering concept of "lag" - and why people just plain can't connect "cause" and EFFECT (besides the fact that they're taught NOT to in the Publik Indoctrinashun Sinturs, aka 'skools') - is Ecclesiastes 8:11.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I’m not a fan of the idea that “God has a plan for us“. I prefer to phrase it as “God has a goal for us.”

 

[Keith Martin]

I’m not a fan of the idea that “God has a plan for us“. I prefer to phrase it as “God has a goal for us.”

Aren't His goals part of His plan?

P.S. Can't wait to see you tomorrow, Revolting One!

 

[LDremoved]

Unfortunately this isn't enough.

We need to search for all truth including stuff not in Bible. Math, economy, agriculture etc.... There are whole fields of neccesary knowledge needed for functional society, but aren't mention in Bible because they aren't needed for our relationship with God.

Let's start with something easy. What is justice? Easy to claim what God says. But, that no answer at all. Human perception of justice also matters. If rulings as seen as unjust then in vain is telling people: But God has said. People will perceive unjust rulings as excuse to screw them.

Let's not forget evidence collection for crimes. Nothing in Bible about this, but court can't any justice with sloppy work here.

Trying to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that once we start relying on the Bible solely then fairness is lost because of human perception?

 

[LDremoved]

I’m not a fan of the idea that “God has a plan for us“. I prefer to phrase it as “God has a goal for us.”

I used to share this view as well even if it's unpopular with a lot of Christians. Not sure how I feel now though.

 

[Mark C]

Sorry guys, but Bible isn't enough to fulfill God's commands. We need knowledge not written there.

Sorry, but 'duh'. If you don't know how to READ, you obviously can't read what is Written.

The Bible doesn't claim to be 'all knowledge', just Truth. And it is "instruction" (Hebrew word torah) for life.

As any mathematician or even good engineer would say, it's a "necessary, but not sufficient condition" for life, too. Keyword: Necessary.

And as YHVH Himself notes, "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6)


Note: He then goes on to say what he intends for those who "reject knowledge." That, too, fits today.

 

[Maddog]

I was taught for years even thru Bible College there is a Perfect Will of God and we need to Get Into It! As a failing man I was very frustrated with never really knowing if I was or was not in God's Will. I was in Bible College for Pete's sake! What more was there?? I have since decided that is not accurate nor Biblical but it still haunts me.

 

[Keith Martin]

I was taught for years even thru Bible College there is a Perfect Will of God and we need to Get Into It! As a failing man I was very frustrated with never really knowing if I was or was not in God's Will. I was in Bible College for Pete's sake! What more was there?? I have since decided that is not accurate nor Biblical but it still haunts me.

That's similar to what Luther experienced as a crisis of conscience when he was leading studies in Romans: as the most pious of the monks in the most pious monastery of the most pious order of the Catholic Church (the Augustinians), he never had one hour when he felt confident that he was lined up with God's Will. Perhaps, he concluded, the Church was organized around keeping everyone in doubt in order to keep them coming back for more.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Perhaps, he concluded, the Church was organized around keeping everyone in doubt in order to keep them coming back for more.

Priestcraft and the "deeds of the nicolaitans" are things I have never heard a regular minister or pastor get into....only Ben Williams.
Here is his newsletter from 1992 that investigates what it is.

 

[Maddog]

Quite damning accusations of the Nicolaitans in the pdf however, having had the Bible College education lacking in said doctrines can someone give a history lesson sans scripture?

 

[MemeFan]

Trying to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that once we start relying on the Bible solely then fairness is lost because of human perception?

I need to explain with more details. I have assumed certain things which I didn't explain. I don't have time this weekend, so here is short version.

Think traffic. Car can kill people. Murdering people is unaccaptable. So how to do prevention? There are no verses in Bible about this. So we humans need to figure rules which will minimize number of deaths which means systemic study and forming traffic as discipline.

Similar with criminal investigation skills. Murder is sin. So we have to find murderers. How? Bible is again silent. Even if Bible has example or two decectives need systematic approach because any mistake may mean that murderer isn't caught. Again need to form discipline, best practices etc.

Crappy job by decectives means uncaught murderers. Then society sins by not punishing uncaught murderers and by having more killed people because new murderers thinks they can get away. It this acceptable to Jesus or decectives new better methods?

Bible has God's commands, but not all details how to always fulfill them. So in order to find best answer we need to form disciplines to find best answer. Examples above.

 

[LDremoved]

I need to explain with more details. I have assumed certain things which I didn't explain. I don't have time this weekend, so here is short version.

Think traffic. Car can kill people. Murdering people is unaccaptable. So how to do prevention? There are no verses in Bible about this. So we humans need to figure rules which will minimize number of deaths which means systemic study and forming traffic as discipline.

Similar with criminal investigation skills. Murder is sin. So we have to find murderers. How? Bible is again silent. Even if Bible has example or two decectives need systematic approach because any mistake may mean that murderer isn't caught. Again need to form discipline, best practices etc.

Crappy job by decectives means uncaught murderers. Then society sins by not punishing uncaught murderers and by having more killed people because new murderers thinks they can get away. It this acceptable to Jesus or decectives new better methods?

Bible has God's commands, but not all details how to always fulfill them. So in order to find best answer we need to form disciplines to find best answer. Examples above.

I see, interesting! Thank you.

 

[FollowingHim]

If everyone truly obeyed God and His word, then suffering would be minimal. ...

Unfortunately this isn't enough.

We need to search for all truth including stuff not in Bible. Math, economy, agriculture etc.... There are whole fields of neccesary knowledge needed for functional society, but aren't mention in Bible because they aren't needed for our relationship with God. ...

I don't see why you think you are arguing with me @MemeFan. I never said that everything we need for all of life is only in the Bible and we should never read anything else. I just said we should obey the Bible.

We need firewood. But the Bible doesn't tell you how to make and use a chainsaw. It doesn't even tell you how to smelt iron and forge an axehead. Obviously you need to learn that from somewhere else. But that's an entirely separate topic that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

[MemeFan]

I don't see why you think you are arguing with me @MemeFan. I never said that everything we need for all of life is only in the Bible and we should never read anything else. I just said we should obey the Bible.

We need firewood. But the Bible doesn't tell you how to make and use a chainsaw. It doesn't even tell you how to smelt iron and forge an axehead. Obviously you need to learn that from somewhere else. But that's an entirely separate topic that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I did some thinking.

What about truths outside Bible which help us properly understand Bible?

Correctly using axiomatic systems (basis of math) and/or metaphysics should reveal interesting things in Bible. As long no logical error is made and axioms are true we can, by laws of logic, be certain in our conclusions.

Elite theory from political science could explain why king's beliefs are so important for spiritual condition of Israel in Old Testament.

Here is example:

You make a deal with friend that you together do some work at neighbor. Friend doesn't show up, so you do whole work yourself. After everything is done friend insist on getting paid. Simple. No contribution from friend, no money for him. If friend takes money he is stealing.

Marxists use labor theory of value to show that above logic is correct for employee/employeer relationship. Since employeer is contributing nothing and getting paid it logically follows that employeer is stealing.

Here we have economic theory explaining part of "do not steal" command. How to prove above conclusion false except using correct economic theory?

Other possibility is figuring correct economic theory from Bible, but why should be base of economics be in Bible? There are no math axioms in Bible.