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Questions and wonderings...

Donnag it sounds as though you and your husband are on the right track. May the Lord continue to guide you in this endeavor and bless you according to your obedeince to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

As for those who doubt what I said about the fulfillment of Isaiah 4:1 being the most important single thing that God is doing in the earth today, (i.e., at this particular moment in time) please understand that it is a personal revelation and not everyone will understand it, nor do you have to believe it. However, if one knows and understands the other things about what time we live in and how this prophecy fits into the overall plan of God for mankind then you WOULD understand where I am coming from. I am not sayiing it is more important than salvation overall, but for this time it is. It is like having an overall plan, but certain things will become more important for a moment in time than the overall plan, even while you are carrying out the overall plan. That is what I am referring to is all. Let's say for example that you are shopping for a gift for someone and you suddenly realize you need the restroom. Finding a restroom suddenly becomes more important to you than finding the gift. It does not however supplant your plan for the gift, it just takes momentary priority to the plan of acquiring the gift.

I hope this helps you to understand my personal revelation and allows you to see that I am not whacked out in my understanding of what God is doing for us overall. Sorry to hijack the thread for a moment, but I believed that I need to clarify that issue for the people who do not know me.

Blessings,

Ray
 
I was under the impression that hubby had already made a committment to the second wife.

SweetLissa
 
He almost did. He almost did. He thankfully waited to see if she would change a very disstressful attitude toward me, and when he realized that it is very unlikely to change he decided that living daily in strife and grief was not worth it to him not to me, so he decided to break it off. I am not sorry.

Merry Christmas to all. Catch up next week.
 
Dr. Ray,

I know you are doing your best to be precise in this and I am thankful for your clarifications.

But let me add a little more to this to help it harmonize better. You stated:

However, if one knows and understands the other things about what time we live in and how this prophecy fits into the overall plan of God for mankind then you WOULD understand where I am coming from. I am not sayiing it is more important than salvation overall, but for this time it is. It is like having an overall plan, but certain things will become more important for a moment in time than the overall plan, even while you are carrying out the overall plan. That is what I am referring to is all. Let's say for example that you are shopping for a gift for someone and you suddenly realize you need the restroom. Finding a restroom suddenly becomes more important to you than finding the gift. It does not however supplant your plan for the gift, it just takes momentary priority to the plan of acquiring the gift.

Even in this we would still have to say that salvation is still the first and most important issue. Think of it this way. The Isa. text, and all texts that speak to a union of a man and woman, are part of the SECOND part of the law code which is to love your neighbor. All laws fit into one of the two categories as Christ said. Some laws are about loving God and some laws are about loving man.

But it is second in order of importance. Christ said that the GREATEST law was to love God first with one's heart and mind and soul. It is the greatest law and no one can love God in a pure way without being righteous, in Christ, born again.

You are not far from being right in what you have perceived God to have impressed upon your heart. You are close to rightly understanding it. It is true that at this time in history God is highlighting this issue to bring it to the front for people to deal with this doctrine just like he has other truths in other portions of history. So your perceptive spirit has understood much of it. Yet there is still the reversal here.

Let me use your illustration. You use the store shopping illustration and the need to take a bathroom break. That is true if the store is already safe. But it is untrue if someone is in a store that is on FIRE and is burning down.

Celibacy, monogamy, polygyny, or any combination of it does not, and can never in a pure Christian theology, take the first place doctrine position no matter when or where we are at in God's historical plan. It can be very important but never of FIRST importance of the THE most important.

If someone is in a store on fire that is what it is like for someone to be unsaved. Their soul, life, and existence is burning down as they dwindle away in sin. The first and most important issue is for that person to understand who Christ is for salvation. EVERYTHING else, with no exceptions, fall under the second order of the law code (love your neighbor) until they first learn how to love God through Christ. So if one were in a store and it is burning down the first and most urgent, vital, and essential issue is for that person NOT to take time to go to bathroom but to run for the exit and get out before he burns up in the fire. Even if the person were to urinate upon themselves that is still better to do in order to get out than to make it to the bathroom yet burn up and die.

Likewise, no person ought to make an earthly love union between a man and woman the most important issue, topic, or focus for anyone who is not yet saved as for that person they are burning up and the first and most vital issue is for that person to be saved. Once that takes place everything else then can be within the next order of business.

I share this not in any way to belabor the point here because as I said, you are 75 or 85% right on the impression the Spirit has given to you as this doctrine does seem to fit within the historical unfolding of God's providence in historical development of doctrines in Church history. But, there is the need to slightly reverse it to get the order right. Without that prioritization your presentation or word choice reverses the two greatest laws in the Bible. Salvation is a first order issue in all cases with no exceptions whatsoever. That is the Evangelical position for those who place the Bible's revelation above all other ideas, impressions of the Spirit, or formulations of doctrine. Love for neighbor, as in a love union with a mate, is always within the second order of laws and must always take a second seat to the first law if we truly are going to build a theology based upon the Bible as the Ultimate standard of truth. And thus all of our impressions of the Spirit, in an Evangelical Christian polygyny position, must place salvation in all cases as first order and then all else as second order and subject our impressions to that biblical textual basis and not allow our personal impressions the Spirit, which can and do occur, to get out of balance in regard to explicit statements of Scripture.

And again, I hope you do not take offense at this effort here to present the biblical order. On this end, and here in America, we see too many times men and women jump on to this doctrine and utterly destroy their lives. In many times those entering into this union are still unsaved and some are even coming out of liberal denominations where they never heard about the truth of the gospel in Christ. They are religious, moral, and seeking love. But some are getting this order out of place and failing to see that salvation is always, in every case, with no exceptions whatsoever the first order of importance. And thus we are seeing people make some bad mistakes by running past Christ in order to get to a mate when what needs to happen is for people to get to Christ first and then from that position of true love learn how to love their mate. I have been working with a few as of recent that are in just this very position. They are seeking to move toward a plural union but what they really need first and foremost is salvation in Christ.

And thus that is why I am stressing this position here and focusing on it. I am not stressing this or saying this to be nit picky or to try and rebuke you or to try and get into a useless or fruitless debate. As I said I think you are on target that within the second order of issues you are right that 75% to 85% of the emphasis in that realm is moving towards this doctrine becoming the focal point issue.

And no I do not think you are "whacko." You are really a good brother overall and what I am trying to do here is nudge you to just take one more step and refine your presentation so that it is more precise, and more stable upon Scripture's theological axioms, what many Evangelicals rightly call the theological triage of doctrinal order.

But, what I am stressing is that as Evangelicals, who believe in the full inspiration and ultimate authority of the Bible over all else, we must always with no exceptions keep the priority of doctrines in the order as Christ so spoke of them. The greatest law is to love God first (which requires salvation) and then to love our neighbor (which allows for polygyny).

Dr. Allen
 
aphesis paraptoma said:
If we husbands are doing our job then it will be easy for the wives to follow yes?
a p, mostly i agree with you, but you go way too far. if the above quote were changed to be from our perspective as the bride of Christ it would read;
if He (Yeshua) is doing His job then it will be easy for us to follow, yes?
i do not know about you, but i find that the enemy has no intention of allowing this walk to be easy. he uses every bit of imperfection that we have against us. our wives have imperfections also that he will use against them, no amount of my laying down my life for her will avoid her having to work through them.
that being said, yes, i totally want to be in partnership with my wife as we move through life and will do everything that i can reasonably do to keep us on the same page. giving her veto power would make the enemy very happy and would actually make my wife's emotions a better and more productive target for him to focus on. if the final decision is my responsibility and is not based upon (but does take into account) her feelings on the subject, then he has to focus his attack on me to get me to decide wrong.
the term "love not force" can be easily perverted by the enemy. you see, i "love" my wife enough to protect her from the pressure that comes from being "forced" to control the final decision.
it is not about the power of men, it is about the responsibility of men to protect their families. giving my wife veto power would give her the responsibility to protect us by having control over that last decision.
"house despot" i love it ;)
 
I too have a question and wonder: :?: Are there major distinctions between polygyny and pologamy? Am I right in saying the woman can not be a polygamist? :?: - She can only have one husband, therefore she is and always will remain monogamous in the marriage. My observation and I was wondering if there is scripture for my observation? :?:
 
I can not believe I missed this post! All I can say is I am glad I was raised this way and already knew about plural marriage! I have always been able to be up front and honest with any woman I have ever dated up front so there was no confusion later on down the road.

"So Dale tell me about your family life"
"Well I have 7mothers total. umm are you ok you look as pale as a ghost?" :lol:
 
Ok time for the breakdown of what each poly system is called and what they mean, just so you know.
Polygyny-the practice or condition of having more than one wife at one time.
polygamy-can mean more then one of any sex.
polyandry-the practice or condition of having more than one husband at one time.
polyamory-participation in multiple and simultaneous loving or sexual relationships.
This site deals with the polygyny end of it all. The reason they call it Christian Plural Marriage is so it is not confused with FLDS views as polygyny or as some call it polygamy.
anewday said:
I too have a question and wonder: :?: Are there major distinctions between polygyny and pologamy? Am I right in saying the woman can not be a polygamist? :?: - She can only have one husband, therefore she is and always will remain monogamous in the marriage. My observation and I was wondering if there is scripture for my observation? :?:
 
ok you can check out biblicalpolygamy.com for biblical info relating to plural marriage and why the scriptures say that a woman is not suppossed to have more than one husband and how it makes the woman the head of the house hold and her the mans master and how man can not serve more than one master. I would normally write more, but i a getting tired and do not want to mis quote.
anewday said:
I too have a question and wonder: :?: Are there major distinctions between polygyny and pologamy? Am I right in saying the woman can not be a polygamist? :?: - She can only have one husband, therefore she is and always will remain monogamous in the marriage. My observation and I was wondering if there is scripture for my observation? :?:
 
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