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Thankyou @MemeFan for answering my seemingly pedantic questions. It's been very helpful:
Permanent change in characteristics of some group of living beings, no matter the scale (how large change of characteristtic, how many characteristics or how many members are changed).
I see the issue. You are defining all change as "evolution". Most creationists don't use that broad a definition. A creationist would use the term "evolution" to mean large-scale changes that, importantly, increase complexity or add wholly new structures. For instance, changing from a fish to an amphibian - this requires the addition of lungs and legs. Or changing from a bacterium to a horse - this greatly increases complexity. Smaller-scale changes would only be referred to as "adaptation". So to some extent we are talking at cross purposes.

Creationism is the belief that God actually created life as stated in scripture, creating all major kinds of creatures and setting the whole thing going. However, He created life with the ability to do everything we see it do today - including adapting to new circumstances in the ways that you discuss (e.g. a T-cell determining how to respond to a new threat). The fact that life is intelligent and adaptable is taken as evidence of intelligent design, not evidence against it - it is just further evidence of how amazing life is. No machine made by humans can heal itself and adapt in the way that life can, only something made by God can do that.

As you have said yourself, it is inconceivable that something so extraordinary could originate by chance. God has to be involved.
In fact, when number of cancer cells is reduced to 1%/2%, remaining cancer cells will start evolving to avoid being killed by chemotheraphy. Same with bacteria under influence of antibiotics.
I think you are misunderstanding how this process works.

In a population of bacteria, there are always a small number that are resistant to antibiotics, through natural mutations. Usually, these mutations are actually harmful, so those bacteria do not thrive. For instance, bacteria will naturally encounter low levels of penicillin in the environment, and have a natural ability to produce the penicillinase enzyme to break it down. But a large dose of penicillin when used as a medicine will overwhelm the bacteria and kill them. A bacteria that has a mutation that causes it to over-produce penicillinase will be resistant to those high doses of penicillin - but in normal circumstances that bacteria would be wasting energy producing too much of this enzyme unnecessarily, so will be outcompeted by others. However, when subjected to penicillin as a medicine, all the other bacteria will die and only that one will survive. Its offspring are also resistant to penicillin, so when the population recovers it will be all penicillin resistant. But this is not the addition of a new ability, it is only natural selection. When the antibiotic is removed, any surviving non-resistant bacteria will outcompete the resistant ones, and the population will eventually return to its non-resistant state.

Likewise, if a chemotherapy treatment reduces the number of cancer cells to 1-2%, which cancer cells do you think survived the treatment? The ones which, for some reason or another, were already resistant to the treatment. Clearly they were already resistant, because if they were not they would also be dead just like the other 99%. When those breed up the whole population will have that characteristic. It doesn't mean they evolved a new ability in response to the chemotherapy. It just means that those that already had that feature were selected for.

We use this all the time in farming, as we have to deal with drench resistance in intestinal worms in livestock. If you drench all the animals repeatedly with the same drench (medicine to kill intestinal worms), the few worms that are naturally resistant will be the only ones that survive, and eventually all of the worms on your farm will be resistant and the drench will no longer work. However, if you leave some animals undrenched as "refugia" - places where worms that are not resistant can survive - the population will be continually re-seeded with these susceptible worms. As the susceptible worms are actually fitter in normal circumstances (the resistant ones weren't "better" or "more evolved"), they will outcompete the drench-resistant worms, and ensure that the drench continues to work.
 
Thankyou @MemeFan for answering my seemingly pedantic questions. It's been very helpful:

I see the issue. You are defining all change as "evolution". Most creationists don't use that broad a definition. A creationist would use the term "evolution" to mean large-scale changes that, importantly, increase complexity or add wholly new structures. For instance, changing from a fish to an amphibian - this requires the addition of lungs and legs. Or changing from a bacterium to a horse - this greatly increases complexity. Smaller-scale changes would only be referred to as "adaptation". So to some extent we are talking at cross purposes.

Creationism is the belief that God actually created life as stated in scripture, creating all major kinds of creatures and setting the whole thing going. However, He created life with the ability to do everything we see it do today - including adapting to new circumstances in the ways that you discuss (e.g. a T-cell determining how to respond to a new threat). The fact that life is intelligent and adaptable is taken as evidence of intelligent design, not evidence against it - it is just further evidence of how amazing life is. No machine made by humans can heal itself and adapt in the way that life can, only something made by God can do that.

As you have said yourself, it is inconceivable that something so extraordinary could originate by chance. God has to be involved.

I think you are misunderstanding how this process works.

In a population of bacteria, there are always a small number that are resistant to antibiotics, through natural mutations. Usually, these mutations are actually harmful, so those bacteria do not thrive. For instance, bacteria will naturally encounter low levels of penicillin in the environment, and have a natural ability to produce the penicillinase enzyme to break it down. But a large dose of penicillin when used as a medicine will overwhelm the bacteria and kill them. A bacteria that has a mutation that causes it to over-produce penicillinase will be resistant to those high doses of penicillin - but in normal circumstances that bacteria would be wasting energy producing too much of this enzyme unnecessarily, so will be outcompeted by others. However, when subjected to penicillin as a medicine, all the other bacteria will die and only that one will survive. Its offspring are also resistant to penicillin, so when the population recovers it will be all penicillin resistant. But this is not the addition of a new ability, it is only natural selection. When the antibiotic is removed, any surviving non-resistant bacteria will outcompete the resistant ones, and the population will eventually return to its non-resistant state.

Likewise, if a chemotherapy treatment reduces the number of cancer cells to 1-2%, which cancer cells do you think survived the treatment? The ones which, for some reason or another, were already resistant to the treatment. Clearly they were already resistant, because if they were not they would also be dead just like the other 99%. When those breed up the whole population will have that characteristic. It doesn't mean they evolved a new ability in response to the chemotherapy. It just means that those that already had that feature were selected for.

We use this all the time in farming, as we have to deal with drench resistance in intestinal worms in livestock. If you drench all the animals repeatedly with the same drench (medicine to kill intestinal worms), the few worms that are naturally resistant will be the only ones that survive, and eventually all of the worms on your farm will be resistant and the drench will no longer work. However, if you leave some animals undrenched as "refugia" - places where worms that are not resistant can survive - the population will be continually re-seeded with these susceptible worms. As the susceptible worms are actually fitter in normal circumstances (the resistant ones weren't "better" or "more evolved"), they will outcompete the drench-resistant worms, and ensure that the drench continues to work.
Thanks for that Samuel. You saved me from a lot of work that I wasn't keen to do.
 
You are on good track here. Cells are themselves that intelligence.

Only problem is from whence comes first cell. Explained later.

If new species can't originate by evolution then it's must be created ex-nixilo by act of miracle. I didn't say that acts of creation new species must only happen during Creation.


I don't claim exactly how any species come into existence, only that evolution as process must be purposefull process initiated and controlled by living being, rather than purely random process (as Darwin says).

Now, for real meat of story and ultimate question of biology.

Chemistry can be reduced to physics since all chemical reactions rely on physical laws. Horewer, biology can't be reduced to chemistry. Why?

Because in biology there are laws which can't explained by chemistry. Which laws? Information laws. Remember, information isn't material, it only has material representation in this world. Picture of Mona Liza is same picture, no matter does you see it on laptop or original. Same info, different material representations.

This is problem for both Darwin and it's Christian answer, Intelligent design. Both were created before anybody tried to use information laws in biology. So while I know why Darwin is wrong, I'm not so certain where exactly Intelligent Design is. But after missing most important part of biology, they can hardly be right.

Complexity isn't reason why Lord must be one who created cells. Cells themselves could evolve from simpler forms toward more complex forms with simpler forms getting outcompeted and going extinct.

Nope, real problem is that DNA/RNA are codes. Therefore information. Code is collection of rules for information understanding. Language is code, same for music notes, traffic signs, etc...

If you can communicate, rules of communication are code.

And so far, no naturally occuring event/happenings (something not done by living being) has information. Weather, rivers, sea. So far, all observed codes are used by living being. Beware, this observation is logical induction, by itself can't claimed as truth.

We can only be certain that we so far haven't found naturally occuring code.

Problem isn't how first proteins, sugars or fats were created. That's only chemistry. It's information which is needed to provide organization and purpose to chemical substances.

So ultimate question in biology is: From whence comes first code? And with it, information.

And to provide context, my whole post is scientific. Meaning, I didn't care what Bible says, what are theologic implication, what us popular. Only what we can observe in nature and use reason to understand it.

And yes, I understand almost everybody will conclude first code must come from Lord, horewer no such experiment can be performed.
The things you seem to be missing can be found in Michael Behe's DARWIN'S BLACK BOX, most notably irreducible complexity. Cells cannot write themselves code to prevent a heart and its circulatory system, for example.
 
I see the issue. You are defining all change as "evolution". Most creationists don't use that broad a definition. A creationist would use the term "evolution" to mean large-scale changes that, importantly, increase complexity or add wholly new structures. For instance, changing from a fish to an amphibian - this requires the addition of lungs and legs. Or changing from a bacterium to a horse - this greatly increases complexity. Smaller-scale changes would only be referred to as "adaptation". So to some extent we are talking at cross purposes.
Then how this increase in complexity come?

Is there natural process or not?
I think you are misunderstanding how this process works.

In a population of bacteria, there are always a small number that are resistant to antibiotics, through natural mutations. Usually, these mutations are actually harmful, so those bacteria do not thrive. For instance, bacteria will naturally encounter low levels of penicillin in the environment, and have a natural ability to produce the penicillinase enzyme to break it down.
Problem isn't in natural selection. Zero problem with me. Problem is random mutations which can't helpful.

When code is exposed to random noise (ie. random mutation) it must lose information. This is primary insight of theory of information. This is reason why error correction codes exist. They are used to protect code during transport.

So, random mutation can't increase any fitness, it can only lower it.

Think, any sentence is code. Would random change of random letter make text more insightful, easier to read? Nope, it can only do opposite.

Monkey pressing letters can only provide gibberish, never art.
 
natural selection
entirely valid, and Darwin was far from the first to incorporate it into hypotheses and theory.

By the weight of lack of evidence Darwinian mutation-and-missing-links theory was discredited a century ago.
 
Problem isn't in natural selection. Zero problem with me. Problem is random mutations which can't helpful.

When code is exposed to random noise (ie. random mutation) it must lose information. This is primary insight of theory of information. This is reason why error correction codes exist. They are used to protect code during transport.

So, random mutation can't increase any fitness, it can only lower it.
But random mutations can increase fitness in certain circumstances. Take the blind cave fish for instance. The Mexican tetra exists in both a sighted form, and a mutant blind form. The mutation has caused the loss of eyesight - loss of information - and the former eye sockets are covered by skin. This makes the fish actually more fit in dark caves, where eyes would be of little to no benefit but are a weak point that can be injured. So the blind form dominates in caves, even though it has actually lost information.

Just because fitness has increased, you cannot assume that information has increased. Look very carefully at what has actually happened and you will generally find that either:
- Information has been lost, or
- Pre-existing information has been acquired from another organism (DNA being passed between organisms by viruses etc).
Then how this increase in complexity come?

Is there natural process or not?
Orthodox creationism would say that there is no such increase in complexity. God created things very complex in the beginning, and everything has been running down since then according to standard known scientific laws.

However, that does not necessarily mean that He could not act in a way which has not been foreseen in that model or by information science.

You need to look more carefully at the things you think are proofs of increasing complexity to be absolutely certain that you have truly found an example of this happening.
 
Pink-haired pervert, anti-American, et al, "US soccer star" Megan Rapinoe claims that injury in her final game of career proves there is NO God:


No comment.
 
But random mutations can increase fitness in certain circumstances. Take the blind cave fish for instance. The Mexican tetra exists in both a sighted form, and a mutant blind form. The mutation has caused the loss of eyesight - loss of information - and the former eye sockets are covered by skin. This makes the fish actually more fit in dark caves, where eyes would be of little to no benefit but are a weak point that can be injured. So the blind form dominates in caves, even though it has actually lost information.
You're assuming mutation, when much more reasonable explanation is adaptation combined with natural selection.
 
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But random mutations can increase fitness in certain circumstances.
Here you have gone on wrong road.

Loss of information due to random noise (which random mutation is) is law of nature. Claude Shannon has found it and proved it.

Claiming that random mutation can increase fitness is like claiming that energy isn't constant. Impossible.

All living beings can create new code and since cells are living being, they can create their own DNA.

@FollowingHim think again. Is random mutation is good why cells go to great length to avoid "errors". Why need to keep constanly repairing DNA? Well, because random chance is bad.

Biology rabbit hole:

 
You're assuming mutation, when much more reasonable explanation is adaptation combined with natural selection.
I don't understand your point. What do you mean by adaptation, and why do you think that is different to what I was saying?

I was talking about adaptation. Adaptation is however a nonspecific word and does not define a mechanism. The understood mechanism, in that case at least, is mutation + natural selection.
 
Here you have gone on wrong road.

Loss of information due to random noise (which random mutation is) is law of nature. Claude Shannon has found it and proved it.

Claiming that random mutation can increase fitness is like claiming that energy isn't constant. Impossible.

All living beings can create new code and since cells are living being, they can create their own DNA.

@FollowingHim think again. Is random mutation is good why cells go to great length to avoid "errors". Why need to keep constanly repairing DNA? Well, because random chance is bad.

Biology rabbit hole:

Yes, random mutations can certainly increase fitness in specific limited circumstances. Most mutations are very harmful, which is why cells go to great lengths to repair them. But mutation occurs all the time, and a small number of these damaging changes can most certainly be useful. Like if your car has one of those annoying alarms that beeps whenever you forget to put on your seatbelt, if that alarm breaks it actually makes the car better for off-road use, even though overall the car is now simpler and has lost information. And if your car had a speed limiter, and that speed limiter breaks, the car can now go faster even though it's actually faulty. So plant breeders even use radiation to induce random mutations in the hope of finding something novel and useful. https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/what-is-mutation-breeding

Just remember that even a useful mutation only damages or reduces the quantity of information. They do not create new useful information. They are useful because they broke something that was unhelpful in a specific situation.

So what you are failing to recognise is that there is a massive difference between "increasing fitness" and "macro-evolution" (dinosaur-to-birds changes).

You do not need to add new information to increase fitness - you can do that simply by removing less useful information, selecting for the most fit traits in that situation. But you do need to increase information to change a dinosaur to a bird - you need to have new information for feathers, different lungs, beaks, light bones and so forth.

To be honest @MemeFan, I know exactly what I'm talking about both professionally and academically. I'd be pleased to help you understand this better, but am not going to waste time arguing over it with someone who doesn't actually want to learn. If you've got any genuine questions fire away.
 
I don't understand your point. What do you mean by adaptation, and why do you think that is different to what I was saying?

I was talking about adaptation. Adaptation is however a nonspecific word and does not define a mechanism. The understood mechanism, in that case at least, is mutation + natural selection.
Please show me one source that says adaptation has to be mutation. Something external has to cause mutation. Living beings are not self-generating mutation devices.
 
Yes, random mutations can certainly increase fitness in specific limited circumstances. Most mutations are very harmful, which is why cells go to great lengths to repair them. But mutation occurs all the time, and a small number of these damaging changes can most certainly be useful. Like if your car has one of those annoying alarms that beeps whenever you forget to put on your seatbelt, if that alarm breaks it actually makes the car better for off-road use, even though overall the car is now simpler and has lost information. And if your car had a speed limiter, and that speed limiter breaks, the car can now go faster even though it's actually faulty. So plant breeders even use radiation to induce random mutations in the hope of finding something novel and useful. https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/what-is-mutation-breeding

Just remember that even a useful mutation only damages or reduces the quantity of information. They do not create new useful information. They are useful because they broke something that was unhelpful in a specific situation.

So what you are failing to recognise is that there is a massive difference between "increasing fitness" and "macro-evolution" (dinosaur-to-birds changes).

You do not need to add new information to increase fitness - you can do that simply by removing less useful information, selecting for the most fit traits in that situation. But you do need to increase information to change a dinosaur to a bird - you need to have new information for feathers, different lungs, beaks, light bones and so forth.

To be honest @MemeFan, I know exactly what I'm talking about both professionally and academically. I'd be pleased to help you understand this better, but am not going to waste time arguing over it with someone who doesn't actually want to learn. If you've got any genuine questions fire away.
You are getting ridicilous.

To make analogy. We talk about some geometry shape. I notice it's a bloody triangle and start using triangle math. You keep pretending it's not a triangle.

My premises are simple:
1. DNA is code
2. Laws of nature for code forbid usefulness of random change.

You can't disprove 2. since it's more than well proven theory. It's basic of whole Internet and teleecom infrastructure. And you can't disprove 1., well because DNA is code because it contains instruction for protein production (well established fact).

So both premises are true and therefore my conclusion must be true. They taught you wrong, sorry @FollowingHim.

And this is problem with biology. Laws of imformation apply to biology also, but some people pretend they don't.

And for empirical evidence. There were radioation experiments of fruit fly to speed up random mutations and produce something useful. In other words, experimentally prove Darwin true. Zero mutations were useful.
 
Pink-haired pervert, anti-American, et al, "US soccer star" Megan Rapinoe claims that injury in her final game of career proves there is NO God:

She means God didn't do it what I expect Him to do, therefore He doesn't exist. Good one.
 
I'm out @MemeFan, this is a waste of time. Enjoy thinking you know everything already.
Sorry if I have hurt you.

I understand I can sometime be hard to deal with. One part is because I only engage on topics I know well (for years I had read equivalent of 50 books a year - same amount needed for college).
Second part - I need to upgrade my diplomatic skills.
 
Pink-haired pervert, anti-American, et al, "US soccer star" Megan Rapinoe claims that injury in her final game of career proves there is NO God:


No comment.

To me the downfall of this freak is indeed proof that God exists and that He does not like to be tested.
 
Sorry if I have hurt you.

I understand I can sometime be hard to deal with. One part is because I only engage on topics I know well (for years I had read equivalent of 50 books a year - same amount needed for college).
Second part - I need to upgrade my diplomatic skills.
Oh, don't be ridiculous @MemeFan. You haven't hurt me. Given we're discussing an area that I've studied this since I was a child, have a high university education in, and have worked in an industry all my life which requires first-hand knowledge of how it works, I know what I'm talking about. But I have far better things to do with my time than waste it arguing with someone who thinks they know it all because they read some books, and ignores everything anyone else says. I have real things to do.
 
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