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See it on Vimeo: Genesis 29-30: Jacob’s Family

Mojo said:
I didn't realize the mainstream CoC folks were of that mindset. Are you over generalizing @Kevin, or have others experienced this?
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I can't speak definitively for all sects or churches within them (there is a lot of diversity) but often that is true. This is a classic stance of organizations in mid-stage decline. Although I think some of their churches have declined past that and are increasingly loosing their distinctiveness.

Mojo said:
I hear you, but the comments in the comment section of the video render an argument or even honest debate useless. He basically says that we can't use the OT to justify anything. If it's not in NT, it's part of the obsolete old covenant done away with at the cross. It's almost like speaking two different languages. There is no common ground, other than NT. Our greatest ammunition is from OT and the support for validity is that it's not explicitly outlawed in NT. The fact that it's not explicitly addressed in NT tells them it's not part of the NT plan,
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You go to Romans, where Paul teaches that the OT is there to instruct us what is sin and that if it weren't for the Law; we wouldn't know sin. That is your hook to use the OT to define what is and isn't sin. This allows you to bring up the utter lack of condemnation for polygamy in the Old Testament. Then you mirror his stance (about NT repeating laws from the OT) and point out the NT also does not condemn polygamy.

You can follow that up with (or skip all of that and start here): insist he give you "book, chapter, verse" where the New Testament condemns polygamy. When he can't, point out that Christ gives us an "approved example" in his parable of the bride-groom. Surely Christ wouldn't picture His relationship to us as a sinful one!

He will of course go to the divorce passages to try and prove his point. So be prepared to discuss the actual meaning of adultery and how Christ was not talking about polygamy but divorce and condemning serial monogamy. You may also need to point out the non-equality of the marriage commands. All of these will likely be new ideas to him.

Another approach would be to point out that David was a man after God's heart and how God offered to give him more wives. And while that is OT, you can point out that God doesn't change and God in the OT (and Christ in the NT) imagined Himself as a husband to multiple wives. He can argue against polygamy with a 'from the beginning it was not so' argument; but he can't argue that God's heart has changed.
 
I understand all of what you all are saying. I get it. I'm one of the choir. I'm saying that HE won't buy any of it because it's not explicitly ordained in NT. We all know it's not condemned either, but he thinks it is by using common forms of cultural eisigesis.

Based on his comments, not necessarily the video:

  1. He's already shut down using the Romans passage because he says Law was done away with...end of story. Those verses don't fit his paradigm.
  2. "One wife" will probably be lumped in with divorce.
  3. He only sees the Matthew narrative as excluding polygamy (like most, he ignores the obvious divorce...only...lesson)
  4. He doesn't want to be convinced, or defend the merits of his position. That's why he offered up his email instead.
As Samuel and others of us maintain, the audience isn't him, it's the readers of the comments. He's already proven to not want convincing.
 
Kevin said:
I have experience with what they teach in their college went for one semester. Theres an organization of a collection of 30 churches of several denominations I'm apart of. This is what I've bumped up against every time we try to approach them about working with us to do something for the kingdom or city. Individuals may vary but this has been my experience dealing with the leadership of their churches, the class that is mandatory at ACU about the Church of Christ teaches this or dealing with them as a congresation.
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Thanks @Kevin. They're not too big in my neck of the woods, so thanks for the education.
 
Kevin said:
They say do not consider any of Torah to be binding under the New Covenant unless they are repeated in the New Testament but when it suits them they will use it to try and condemn others, They believe that the New Testament demonstrates how a person may become a Christian and thus a part of the universal Church of Christ and how a church should be collectively organized and carry out its scriptural purposes. Which means to the the Church of Christ is they are the only "real church". The rest of us are the ones Yeshua is going to say Begone I know you not. Anything espoused from a non Church of Christ source is wrong. Here in Abilene there are 23 Church of Christ and their college ACU. Their doctrine legalises Grace to justify itself and condemn others. Condemnation is their biggest tool.
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I attended and graduated from ACU. I am not going to claim that you are wrong, but I might suggest you are overly harsh and like others have said there is a broad spectrum of beliefs. You are describing one side of the spectrum. I certainly ran into people who thought the Church of Christ was the only church, but niether I nor anyone in my circle thought that, and I believe that that idea is even less prevalent now than in the 80s when I went to school there.

The Church of Christ is part of the Restoration Movement of the 1800s. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement
 
Mojo said:
Thank you gentlemen. I ran into a bunch of "Universal" CoC folks in college and even went to a bible study and large service of theirs once after being invited. I quickly realized their "we are the only true church" vibe and hightailed it outta their grasp.

Tbh though, I've heard some funky Baptists claim the same thing (or close to it).

I didn't realize the mainstream CoC folks were of that mindset. Are you over generalizing @Kevin, or have others experienced this?
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Church of Christ is used for lots of different groups, often all sounding the same. The "United Church of Christ" is a very different group for example.

Kevin is over generalizing. Most Church of Christ people do not believe that the Church of Christ is the only legit church and all other Christians are going to hell.
 
Mojo said:
I hear you, but the comments in the comment section of the video render an argument or even honest debate useless. He basically says that we can't use the OT to justify anything. If it's not in NT, it's part of the obsolete old covenant done away with at the cross. It's almost like speaking two different languages. There is no common ground, other than NT. Our greatest ammunition is from OT and the support for validity is that it's not explicitly outlawed in NT. The fact that it's not explicitly addressed in NT tells them it's not part of the NT plan,
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When Jesus was debating the Sadducees he stuck to the Pentateuch. Consider it a challenge. Can you demonstrate the God approves of polygamy using only the NT?
 
I thought i said that individuals were different and was specific about who I was speaking of and the cirumstances. I was not meaning every one. I apologize if there was confusion.

Individuals may vary but this has been my experience dealing with the leadership of their churches, the class that is mandatory at ACU about the Church of Christ teaches this or dealing with them as a congresation.
 
Kevin said:
I thought i said that individuals were different and was specific about who I was speaking of and the cirumstances. I was not meaning every one. I apologize if there was confusion.

Individuals may vary but this has been my experience dealing with the leadership of their churches, the class that is mandatory at ACU about the Church of Christ teaches this or dealing with them as a congresation.
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It could be different now, but when I atteneded there was no mandatory class about the Church of Christ. When I went Freshman were required to take a survey of the NT and Sophmores were required to take a survey of the OT. Nothing specific about the Church of Christ.

If there is a mandatory class now and that is taught in it then I am sure it must lead to a lot of disagreements in the classroom.

I can see that with the school and the many large congregations in the area that they feel enough support that the do not feel the need to be ecuminical, but that is not the same thing as believing that the other churchs are not valid.

Lastly, all of the congregation are independent. There is no overriding body that keeps them in line, so individual congregations can and do vary.

I do accept that your experience probably has not been the same as mine.
 
It does not look like they are engaging in the discussion anymore anyway. They have not responded to me.
 
cnystrom said:
Lastly, all of the congregation are independent. There is no overriding body that keeps them in line, so individual congregations can and do vary.
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True let me explain the congregation statement. The pastors who let us take it before their congregations the big 16 in here have said that they will not participate in interdenominational activities because there is only one church and it's the Church of Christ. Their leadership nodded in agreement. Once that was said by one person the conversation was over. Whether individuals felt differently the didn't say in a corporate setting just towed the line. This was the message from the congregations I spoke to. Sometimes individuals don't want to Rock the boat and remain silent, going with the flow.
 
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cnystrom said:
It does not look like they are engaging in the discussion anymore anyway. They have not responded to me.
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Even though there hasn't been any further response from them, it's still worthwhile posting comments for those who will be searching for info on polygamy and may come across that video. Also, some of the Sunset COC people might watch the video and be challenged by the comments. We don't know what God might do through His word when it is faithfully presented and error refuted!
 
cnystrom said:
When Jesus was debating the Sadducees he stuck to the Pentateuch. Consider it a challenge. Can you demonstrate the God approves of polygamy using only the NT?
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Not sure I understand your point. The NT records no instances of polygyny. It is this absence, combined with "the law was done away with at the cross" that most, like this pastor, will cling to. We can argue that he doesn't disapprove (no laws, commands, or narratives to disapprove) but there are no explicit forms of approval. When we argue NT, it's often based on Greek meanings and...reverting back to OT references in NT. This pastor refutes this approach. He refuses to use the OT. Again, he is setting the limits if the argument and without allowing for any OT reference, it's pretty difficult not impossible, but difficult to convince.
 
Kevin said:
True let me explain the congregation statement. The pastors who let us take it before their congregations the big 16 in Abilene have said that they will not participate in interdenominational activities because there is only one church and it's the Church of Christ. Their leadership nodded in agreement. Once that was said by one person the conversation was over. Whether individuals felt differently the didn't say in a corporate setting just towed the line. This was the message from the congregations I spoke to. Sometimes individuals don't want to Rock the boat and remain silent, going with the flow.
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Non-participation in ecumenical activities is pretty common amoung COC preachers. Not surprising at all. But even that practice is not universal, even amoung the more conservative groups. There is great on the ground variance because it is a movement with no established hierarchies.
 
Mojo said:
I understand all of what you all are saying. I get it. I'm one of the choir. I'm saying that HE won't buy any of it because it's not explicitly ordained in NT. We all know it's not condemned either, but he thinks it is by using common forms of cultural eisigesis.

Based on his comments, not necessarily the video:

  1. He's already shut down using the Romans passage because he says Law was done away with...end of story. Those verses don't fit his paradigm.
  2. "One wife" will probably be lumped in with divorce.
  3. He only sees the Matthew narrative as excluding polygamy (like most, he ignores the obvious divorce...only...lesson)
  4. He doesn't want to be convinced, or defend the merits of his position. That's why he offered up his email instead.
As Samuel and others of us maintain, the audience isn't him, it's the readers of the comments. He's already proven to not want convincing.
Click to expand...

In that case, there is no hope of getting through to him (esp. in light of 1). But there is still value in preaching the truth to the commentors.
 
I grew up church of Christ, still attend a church of Christ, and went to Harding University (church of Christ affiliated school). Abilene is consider the "liberal" CoC university from my background.

There is a ton of variety because, as mentioned, congregations are independent from each other. This is believed to be part of God's providence because if one congregation goes astray, it doesn't effect other congregations.

While there is a lot variety, usually the 1 uniting belief is immersion baptism for salvation. Any one not baptized for the remission of sins is not part of the church that began on the day of Pentecost.

So with that understanding, when a congregation hesitates or refuses to work with denominations it is with the belief that to do so would be implying you can be saved without being baptized. If they participate in a food drive and someone is handing out brochures with the sinner's prayer, then people will mistakenly think they are saved. That is the fear that prevents congregation's from working with others. It looks bad, but really does come from a good place (usually).

I personally still believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but don't go around condemning people to hell for believing otherwise. Relationship and discussion seems like a more effective and Christ-like way of relating to people. I was wrong about marriage for 30+ years, I'm sure I am wrong about something now. It could be baptism, but so far I haven't been convinced otherwise.

Anyway, I plan on watching the sermon when I get a chance. I have been collecting CoC resources on Polygyny to create a CoC background rebuttal to them. I found the truth about marriage using the principles of interpretation instilled in me by the CoC. I think others can find it too. We are a stubborn bunch, though 😅.
 
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