Some thoughts in the way of me feeling perfectly right about going the polygyny route

[DiscipleOfChrist]

I have appreciated people on this forum who have given me thoughtful input in the past, as well as prayers (and these always really help).

I'm not sure how thrilled I should get at the thought of more than one woman. I'm actually still single. Right now, my favorite mindset of a woman would be someone who is mostly indifferent to whether I took another wife, but understands that polygyny isn't adultery. That's partly because I believe I need to leave the door open for an ex to return (in which I'd have 2), which is a scenario that I see God's law potentially causing to play out: for example, if a man divorces his wife on Matthew 19:9 grounds and marries another woman, if the first wife repents, she's still bound to her original husband despite him having taken another wife. I can see general benefits in a wife (even one) understanding what is or isn't adultery and also the reasons why: it suggests that she understands the patriarchal nature of marriage in ways that most don't.

As far as a woman being dead-set on wanting a sister wife or two, this is what holds me back. I know there's probably a 99% chance that this audience isn't going to "like" this, but here is my core concern about more than one wife:

1 Corinthians 7 32-35
32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

I suspect that this is why Paul wanted an elder to be the "man of one woman." One is enough to prevent the "burn with passion" that Paul says to avoid, as well as avoiding temptation to "porneia" by marrying. But if a man has two wives, then hasn't he just doubled the issue that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 7 32-35? For anyone with several wives, I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts on that.

As a quick aside that might likely become the focus of some people's reply, other interpretations of "mias" don't work from what I can see. "First-wife man" makes the least sense especially when we consider polygyny: why would it be less offensive if a man divorced his second or third wife than his first? "First-wife man" sounds like a ridiculous way of Paul saying that the man has never sent away a wife. "mias" meaning an article also doesn't make sense just because (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this one, extremely possible) it isn't generally necessary to use articles, and cross-references of "mias" that are said to seem like an article look more to me like they're trying to identify something distinguished, like "a CERTAIN voice" or "a CERTAIN tree," or "particular" or something along those lines. And why doesn't Paul just use the word "Gamesas" to describe "a married man" like he does in 1 Corinthians 7:33? By all means, make your case where you think I didn't work that out correctly. Or could "mias" just be a contrast to a philanderer? I mean most of the requirements of elders are pretty commonplace virtues anyway, and requirements for widows to be on widows' lists for support required the incredibly obvious virtue of being the wife to one husband (don't know how she'd be around there otherwise in the first place). So, perhaps it refers to a man who avoids "porneia" that Paul constantly warns about emphatically.

I should probably do more homework and browse the forum for my next question: how are people actually avoiding the law? I guess Utah is known for having extremely mild consequences for polygyny so some move there. Otherwise, how are people avoiding being in serious trouble with the law over this? I mean polygyny has been on TV, somehow, but would one have to duck and keep a low profile for life?

Thanks all.

 

[OttoM]

I suspect that this is why Paul wanted an elder to be the "man of one woman." One is enough to prevent the "burn with passion" that Paul says to avoid, as well as avoiding temptation to "porneia" by marrying. But if a man has two wives, then hasn't he just doubled the issue that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 7 32-35? For anyone with several wives, I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts on that.


I should probably do more homework and browse the forum for my next question: how are people actually avoiding the law? I guess Utah is known for having extremely mild consequences for polygyny so some move there. Otherwise, how are people avoiding being in serious trouble with the law over this? I mean polygyny has been on TV, somehow, but would one have to duck and keep a low profile for life?

Thanks all.

Paul does go on to say if a man does indeed choose to marry - he has not committed any sin. If a man marries two women - he has not sinned either. We have the parable the Lord Jesus Christ used of the bridegroom marrying 5 women at once. His Father also was spiritually married to two women (Israel and Judah). Then we had David - whom had the heart of God - and he had roughly 20 wives. Marrying Christian virgins is in a way - building the church through larger family units. Jacob had 4 wives and 12 sons - and it's written God loved Jacob. Those 12 sons eventually became the 12 tribes of Israel. From the 12 tribes of Israel came the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In the Body of Christ - there are many different members. Each has their role to play. This is the same with polygamy. I don't everyone can pull it off. I don't think you should have any idolatry in your life (passion for video games, passion for sports, etc). But instead a passion to be a good family leader under the umbrella of the Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. With those extra wives also comes more kids - so much more income is likely needed to support the wives/children with food, shelter, and clothing.

As far as how it should be done - you should get it done through commitment ceremonies. Which is a regular marriage ceremony, but no paperwork with the government. So as far as the government is concerned - there is zero record of you being married with your wives - so to them you simply have multiple women sleeping with you. Even if it's allowed by a certain state to be legally married to two wives - AVOID. They can just as easily revoke this law, and put you in position where you may go to jail. So commitment ceremonies only - I would recommend.

 

[NVIII]

As far as how it should be done - you should get it done through commitment ceremonies.

Completely unnecessary and useless. If your marriage needs this crutch you still don't understand the meaning of marriage. For more understanding on the history and origin of our modern ceremonies, use Google, but the gist is the Catholic church usurped authority over marriage and took existing practices and reduced them to symbolic substitution, which almost all organized "Christian" religion clings to til this day.

So as far as the government is concerned - there is zero record of you being married with your wives - so to them you simply have multiple women sleeping with you.

Bad advice. Laws governing bigamy often close the cohabitation loophole by explicitly outlawing even the appearance of bigamy. Read the laws of your governing institution carefully. If you are in the USA, be aware that they vary by State. Some have not closed that loophole. In any case, you are far less likely to be pursued if you do not flaunt it. So this:

would one have to duck and keep a low profile for life?

is actually somewhat true. Just don't piss off the wrong bluehair or make a crusader jealous and you should be able to peacefully coexist. Just don't be quick to assume you are safe by not signing two licenses.

Edit: written from a rural perspective where everybody knows your business. In a big city were the liberals gather and anonymity is the norm, you wouldn't stick out at all if you didn't try to.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Paul does go on to say if a man does indeed choose to marry - he has not committed any sin. If a man marries two women - he has not sinned either. We have the parable the Lord Jesus Christ used of the bridegroom marrying 5 women at once. His Father also was spiritually married to two women (Israel and Judah). Then we had David - whom had the heart of God - and he had roughly 20 wives. Marrying Christian virgins is in a way - building the church through larger family units. Jacob had 4 wives and 12 sons - and it's written God loved Jacob. Those 12 sons eventually became the 12 tribes of Israel. From the 12 tribes of Israel came the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I don't debate the "sin" side of it. My concern is the "devotion to the Lord" issue that Paul talks about, whatever it is, and as mentioned I strongly suspect that this is why he doesn't want elders and deacons to have more than one wife. The older I get, the more I'm seeing the need to figure out doctrine myself. Ironically that's exactly what led me to change my mind about polygyny. I explored the subject with major confirmation bias but saw no choice but to change my mind about it.

I still find it hard to imagine Paul not frowning on marrying more than one woman for the reasons that he's said, and the way he explains why one should marry: to avoid burning with passion, and to avoid temptation to porneia, and to that end, more than one wife couldn't possibly be necessary (otherwise we'd have problems with supply, if nothing else).

But what I'm looking for in a potential testimony from someone is, do you find that 2 wives isn't double-trouble after all, somehow? (Paul made a mention of worldly troubles of married people that he wants to spare people). Do you find that your devotion to the Lord isn't doubly-compromised, as I see Paul saying that even marriage to one woman (though necessary for most men) does so? Because I'm personally concerned about this. I've often considered that multiple wives could have its own set of advantages too, to be sure. As you mentioned David, that's probably the best example of a man with multiple wives as he was a king and a prophet and God made a mention of GIVING him even more wives if he wanted, so there is that from a biblical standpoint.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Just don't piss off the wrong bluehair or make a crusader jealous and you should be able to peacefully coexist. Just don't be quick to assume you are safe by not signing two licenses.

Edit: written from a rural perspective where everybody knows your business. In a big city were the liberals gather and anonymity is the norm, you wouldn't stick out at all if you didn't try to.

Yeah, the problem is, I don't have long-term plans to live in obscurity so this is a problem for me. :\

Maybe I have to figure out how to move to Australia or New Zealand.

 

[OttoM]

Your

I don't debate the "sin" side of it. My concern is the "devotion to the Lord" issue that Paul talks about, whatever it is, and as mentioned I strongly suspect that this is why he doesn't want elders and deacons to have more than one wife. The older I get, the more I'm seeing the need to figure out doctrine myself. Ironically that's exactly what led me to change my mind about polygyny. I explored the subject with major confirmation bias but saw no choice but to change my mind about it.

I still find it hard to imagine Paul not frowning on marrying more than one woman for the reasons that he's said, and the way he explains why one should marry: to avoid burning with passion, and to avoid temptation to porneia, and to that end, more than one wife couldn't possibly be necessary (otherwise we'd have problems with supply, if nothing else).

But what I'm looking for in a potential testimony from someone is, do you find that 2 wives isn't double-trouble after all, somehow? (Paul made a mention of worldly troubles of married people that he wants to spare people). Do you find that your devotion to the Lord isn't doubly-compromised, as I see Paul saying that even marriage to one woman (though necessary for most men) does so? Because I'm personally concerned about this. I've often considered that multiple wives could have its own set of advantages too, to be sure. As you mentioned David, that's probably the best example of a man with multiple wives as he was a king and a prophet and God made a mention of GIVING him even more wives if he wanted, so there is that from a biblical standpoint.

You’re doing it right:

2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:15-16
You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living,

For an elder - it makes sense to be husband of one wife with good fruit to show for. Because he has to be a good servant of Lord Jesus Christ by taking care of his flock.

You also have to understand Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 7:26-31
Because of the present crisis, I think it is best to remain as you are. 27 If you have a wife, do not seek to end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not seek to get married. 28 But if you do get married, it is not a sin. And if a young woman gets married, it is not a sin. However, those who get married at this time will have troubles, and I am trying to spare you those problems.

29 But let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short. So from now on, those with wives should not focus only on their marriage. 30 Those who weep or who rejoice or who buy things should not be absorbed by their weeping or their joy or their possessions. 31 Those who use the things of the world should not become attached to them.


So this teaching isn’t just for marriage - but as you can see - it extends to everyday life. Possessions and joy. But Paul also explains the reasoning - “because of this present crisis.” While the good news of the gospel was being spread throughout the known world - false teachings were creeping up. Such as circumcision being required for salvation. Not just false teachings but the early church was dealing with persecutions; not just from the Jews, but also the Romans and other pagan groups.

 

[FollowingHim]

if a man divorces his wife on Matthew 19:9 grounds and marries another woman, if the first wife repents, she's still bound to her original husband despite him having taken another wife.

If a man divorces his wife, she is free. Deuteronomy 24:2. She is no longer bound to her husband, she is so free that she can marry someone else. She may still return at that point, but once she marries another man she may never return (24:1-4). Divorce really does mean something, it truly does sever the marriage - that's why it's a serious matter.

I should probably do more homework and browse the forum for my next question: how are people actually avoiding the law? I guess Utah is known for having extremely mild consequences for polygyny so some move there. Otherwise, how are people avoiding being in serious trouble with the law over this? I mean polygyny has been on TV, somehow, but would one have to duck and keep a low profile for life?

There is no law to avoid - polygamy is not illegal. That is a misconception. Bigamy is illegal - bigamy being getting two legal marriage licences. But you can live with and sleep with as many women (or men...) as you like, in this ungodly world, and nobody cares. So provided you don't try and register two marriages with the government - which nobody in their right mind would try - you are breaking no laws.

In general. Actually, if you were to move to Utah, you would be breaking the law - Utah actually does have a law against polygamous cohabitation, as part of state persecution of the fundamentalist mormon church. I think Texas and one other state might also. The very places you think this would be most legal are actually the only places it is illegal! But these laws are unenforced, because they wouldn't stand up in court and nobody wants to have them thrown out, so they don't use them. Actually, the Philippines has laws against "concubinage" which can catch people out, but I don't think they're enforced either. Apart from that, polygamy is legal throughout the entire world.

 

[FollowingHim]

@DiscipleOfChrist, it will certainly be better for some men to be monogamous, just as it will be better for some men to remain single - and better for some to be polygamous. God has a plan for each of our lives. And based on pure statistics, only a minority of men will be polygamous in His plans.

The key thing is to recognise that it is not sinful (which you do), so you are open to all eventualities and don't condemn others unnecessarily, and then seek God's plan for your individual life. Most likely that plan will be for you to have one wife. But that plan may also be different for different stages of your life - you may be to have one wife until the age of 50 and then take on a widow or two. Or maybe you are to have one wife, and train her that polygamy is acceptable - because you're going to die early and she's going to be that widow who God's plan is to join another man's family. You simply have no idea. Relax and go with the flow.

 

[OttoM]

I

Completely unnecessary and useless. If your marriage needs this crutch you still don't understand the meaning of marriage. For more understanding on the history and origin of our modern ceremonies, use Google, but the gist is the Catholic church usurped authority over marriage and took existing practices and reduced them to symbolic substitution, which almost all organized "Christian" religion clings to til this day.

Bad advice. Laws governing bigamy often close the cohabitation loophole by explicitly outlawing even the appearance of bigamy. Read the laws of your governing institution carefully. If you are in the USA, be aware that they vary by State. Some have not closed that loophole. In any case, you are far less likely to be pursued if you do not flaunt it. So this:

is actually somewhat true. Just don't piss off the wrong bluehair or make a crusader jealous and you should be able to peacefully coexist. Just don't be quick to assume you are safe by not signing two licenses.

Edit: written from a rural perspective where everybody knows your business. In a big city were the liberals gather and anonymity is the norm, you wouldn't stick out at all if you didn't try to.

A commitment ceremony would bring family over, and it celebrates something good (a man that finds a good wife is a blessing from the LORD and receives favor from the LORD). But without Ceaser (government) involved. Something along these lines:

Genesis 29:22-23

So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. 23 But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob.

How can the crime of bigamy be committed if there is zero paperwork with the government with any of the wives?

 

[frederick]

Actually, the Philippines has laws against "concubinage" which can catch people out, but I don't think they're enforced either.

Actually, the concubinage law is enforced on occasions however, polygyny is legal for some and openly practised. Because there is no divorce, and annulment is incredibly expensive, adultery is rampant. In the provinces "live in" is as acceptable as being legally married and people refer to each other as husband and wife even though there is no government issued documentation. There are many aspects about life in the Philippines that make the saying, Its more fun in the Philippines, a living reality.

 

[NBTX11]

I

A commitment ceremony would bring family over, and it celebrates something good (a man that finds a good wife is a blessing from the LORD and receives favor from the LORD). But without Ceaser (government) involved. Something along these lines:

Genesis 29:22-23

So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. 23 But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob.

How can the crime of bigamy be committed if there is zero paperwork with the government with any of the wives?

If you want to have a ceremony of some kind, have at it. My only question would be, why? You're bringing a lot of attention to your second marriage. If you're ok with that go ahead.

Otherwise, just make an agreement with the woman that you're marrying and move her into your house.

 

[steve]

My only question would be, why? You're bringing a lot of attention to your second marriage

It is a very honoring thing to do for one of the most important steps that a woman takes in her life.

 

[NBTX11]

It is a very honoring thing to do for one of the most important steps that a woman takes in her life.

Why is it honoring? Best I can tell it’s not required. So wouldn’t it be more of a cultural thing? In other words, modern society has ceremonies so we need to have one too? I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so, but how can you say that’s it’s honoring biblically.

 

[NBTX11]

In general. Actually, if you were to move to Utah, you would be breaking the law - Utah actually does have a law against polygamous cohabitation, as part of state persecution of the fundamentalist mormon church. I think Texas and one other state might also.

Guess I need to read up more on Texas laws.

 

[FollowingHim]

Why is it honoring? Best I can tell it’s not required. So wouldn’t it be more of a cultural thing? In other words, modern society has ceremonies so we need to have one too? I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so, but how can you say that’s it’s honoring biblically.

Remember the psychological aspect. Whether something is "honouring" is to a degree in the eyes of the person being honoured. When someone has been raised their entire lives expecting to have a wedding one day, it would feel dishonouring to say she couldn't have one - it would feel like she wasn't considered worth it. Same goes for her wider family - her father may feel you weren't serious about this, weren't considering this a "real marriage", if you weren't willing to do the thing formally and just intended to start sleeping with her.

So, yes, it's cultural. But culture is important.

 

[OttoM]

If you want to have a ceremony of some kind, have at it. My only question would be, why? You're bringing a lot of attention to your second marriage. If you're ok with that go ahead.

Otherwise, just make an agreement with the woman that you're marrying and move her into your house.

When I think of commitment ceremony - the way I imagine it is a different city (usually on the beach in Florida), and only very close family, and friends. So a very private event. I don’t see it as a “call the entire neighborhood” event. But a very private event with only close family/friends. You want to be gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent. Broadcasting such an event would just be silly - bringing un-needed attention. It would be nice to give her and her close family such an event for memories. It’s a serious thing to enter a life long covenant with another human. People celebrate for much less things.

Plus you don’t need her parents constantly whispering in her ear - things like - he’s not serious and he’s just using you. It’s not a sin to do a commitment ceremony. If it helps bring peace - as long as it’s done in a kind of private way - then I don’t see a problem.

 

[steve]

When Yah made a covenant with Abram, He had a ceremony that involved cutting animals in half. He could have just declared it and not bothered with any kind of ceremony, but He didn’t.
To anyone hasn’t noticed, women typically have a few more feelings than men do. Work with those feelings and make friends with them, or ignore them to the detriment of your relationship.

 

[NVIII]

There is no law to avoid - polygamy is not illegal. That is a misconception. Bigamy is illegal - bigamy being getting two legal marriage licences. But you can live with and sleep with as many women (or men...) as you like, in this ungodly world, and nobody cares. So provided you don't try and register two marriages with the government - which nobody in their right mind would try - you are breaking no laws.

Once again, terrible advice. Some men here are volunteering to pay your legal fees, @DiscipleOfChrist. It is true that these laws are often unenforced, but they have been enforced on several occassions. Very comparable to the laws governing fornication and adultery, which also vary by State, in which you are not likely to be prosecuted unless in conjunction with a related crime that does earn you some attention, or if you become particularly obnoxious to the wrong person or people. But, to say that there is no such law is not just misleading, it is false and potentially dangerous. Yes, a person engaging in polygyny in most of the Westernized world, including the United States and Canada, is likely technically in violation of the law and would do well to keep it to himself. For those living in the USA, here is a helpful resource. I recommend clicking through and reading the Jason Cherry review for your State of interest, as it contains more of the particulars, explanation, history, and references to the applicable legislation. Here's a link to the header for his complete discourse on the subject, where you can also find a spreadsheet laying out a summary of his findings. It is 10 years old, so it's possible some things have changed, but a quick check of the referenced laws will verify in each instance.

One more note on this: be aware that, if your State recognizes common law marriages (for example, in my State, living and behaving as if married for 7 years), then the cohabitation loophole can be de facto closed if you inadvertently establish such a marriage in a way that witnesses might attest to.

I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, and once again it's true it's largely unenforced, but it's a good question that you asked, and it deserves a good answer for all to see. It might be a good idea to have a more comprehensive guide on the subject if others in other locations know of similar resources to share.

 

[MemeFan]

1 Corinthians 7 32-35
32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

I suspect that this is why Paul wanted an elder to be the "man of one woman." One is enough to prevent the "burn with passion" that Paul says to avoid, as well as avoiding temptation to "porneia" by marrying. But if a man has two wives, then hasn't he just doubled the issue that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 7 32-35? For anyone with several wives, I'd definitely be interested in your thoughts on that.

Taking good care of your wife/wives == serving Lord.

Only potential issues are things like missionary work where being single has some advantages. But marriage has never stopped any missionary couple, so forget single advantage.

In old time, wives and children were part of army camp. Where soldier goes so wifey and kids go. Again, no reason to practice celibacy.

 

[MemeFan]

Right now, my favorite mindset of a woman would be someone who is mostly indifferent to whether I took another wife,

LoL. Only way your woman is indifferent toward new family member is if she has already found way better replacement.