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The Husband’s Call to Love Is A Call to Rule

You answered your own question sir.

Question:
If a husband gives a directive to his wife, and then if the wife refuses to compliance, what power would that husband actually be able to use to force compliance? What could he possibly do to force her into doing what he wanted her to do?


Answer:
When my wife goes through a period of reluctance to address the problems between us, I put agreeing to fund or participate in unnecessary activities on hold as well.

If you take my statement out of the context of the entire post it does not completely explain the point I am making.
 
I want to come back to this:

Ladies, if you want to know what love is (why do I hear music?...), get your submission on. Men, if you want to see your wives willingly submit without force or compulsion, get your love on. It really is that simple.
Yes if both parties do this, it can be this simple...the problem comes if only one is doing it the right way. It is possible to do everything right and the other party does not. How does one handle that ?? that is the real question. How long and in what circumstances is a woman required to submitt to a jerk (dictator) and in what circumstances does a loving king give an ultimatum, without becoming a dictator, or losing his kingship in the process?
 
Sarah recognized her husband's lordship position. So my claim about the husband being her lord is reinforced by both Sarah and Peter
She also didn't trust the G-d to keep His promise, then commanded Abraham to send away Ishmael and Hagar. That's not submission. She submitted to moving but lost faith and trust. She obeyed when her husband was leading poorly, Pharohs harem. Her submission was out of fear that Abraham would die and what would happen to her. You have to read Peter in context. He Starts of talking about a husband in Rebellion. Then talks about wives submission and states "just as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord" Showing that a woman who rebels can still submit. Then tells the women he's addressing that "You have become her daughters by doing what is good and not fearing intimidation." Not an example of husband being a wife's Lord.

1 Peter 3
3 Likewise, wives, be submitted to your own husbands so that—even if some do not obey the message—by the wives’ conduct, without a word they may be won over 2 as they observe your pure, reverent conduct. 3 Don’t let your beauty be external—braiding the hair and wearing gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Instead let it be in the hidden person of the heart, with the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 For this is the way the holy women, who put their hope in God, used to beautify themselves long ago—being submitted to their own husbands 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You have become her daughters by doing what is good and not fearing intimidation. 7 In the same way, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. Though they are weaker partners, honor them as equal heirs of the grace of life. In this way, your prayers will not be hindered.

How does the second part of 1 Peter 3:7 fit into rulership? Two servants are tasked with their masters buisness. One being given the authority to lead in completing their masters goal does not make that one ruler of the other.
 
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Why are none of you Bible scholars using all of your hyper accurate translation tools to research how God told us He treated His brides Israel and Judah? Anyone think there might be some utility in that? It might possibly be relevant to see how The Perfect Husband husbanded rebellious wives. Ding! Oh, my popcorn is ready....
 
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It occurred to me later last night that you have mentioned this a couple of times, and it's probably worth looking at more closely. You and I may be using the word "force" in different ways, and the only way to get into that is to talk about what actually happened in your life. If you'd like to continue that part of the conversation in a private message, I'd be happy to go there with you, and if not, that's okay.

Nothing I have said or will say is meant to suggest that whatever happened between you and your wife was scripturally wrong. Your business is your business, and like I said, if we discussed this privately we'd probably figure out what's happening here.

Thank you for offering and I will consider that. I have on purpose not given specifics for several reasons. Allow me a little time and I may very well take you up on that offer.
 
Why are none of you Bible scholars using all of your hyper accurate translation tools to research how God told us He treated His brides Israel and Judah? Anyone think there might be some utility in that? It might possibly be relevant to see how The Perfect Husband husbanded rebellious wives. I will sit back and pop some popcorn while all you lovey dovey types get very unloving with me.

Easy now let's keep this civil. Lol
 
She also didn't trust the G-d to keep His promise, then commanded Abraham to send away Ishmael and Hagar. That's not submission. She submitted to moving but lost faith and trust. She obeyed when her husband was leading poorly, Pharohs harem. Her submission was out of fear that Abraham would die and what would happen to her. You have to read Peter in context. He Starts of talking about a husband in Rebellion. Then talks about wives submission and states "just as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord" Showing that a woman who rebels can still submit. Then tells the women he's addressing that "You have become her daughters by doing what is good and not fearing intimidation." Not an example of husband being a wife's Lord.

1 Peter 3
3 Likewise, wives, be submitted to your own husbands so that—even if some do not obey the message—by the wives’ conduct, without a word they may be won over 2 as they observe your pure, reverent conduct. 3 Don’t let your beauty be external—braiding the hair and wearing gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Instead let it be in the hidden person of the heart, with the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 For this is the way the holy women, who put their hope in God, used to beautify themselves long ago—being submitted to their own husbands 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You have become her daughters by doing what is good and not fearing intimidation. 7 In the same way, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. Though they are weaker partners, honor them as equal heirs of the grace of life. In this way, your prayers will not be hindered.

How does the second part of 1 Peter 3:7 fit into rulership? Two servants are tasked with their masters buisness. One being given the authority to lead in completing their masters goal does not make that one ruler of the other.

I understand the context. It still doesn't change my point. She recognized his lordship even when he was giving her bad instructions. That doesn't change the fact that she recognized his lordship.
 
You and I may be using the word "force" in different ways,

The use of consequences (or the threat of consequences) to compel obedience. I gave an example earlier about financial wisdom. Obviously there are clear limits to the consequences. Nothing abusive either emotionally or physically. And as I have been discussing with @Kevin the authority is not absolute and is deligated by God and must be kept within the boundaries of scripture regarding love and such...
 
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Sarah refers to Abraham as her kurios (אָדוֹן Hebrew) in Genesis 18:12 in the Septuagint. Yet she does not address him directly with that word.

Interestingly, Rebekah calls Abraham’s servant kurios (Greek) אָדוֹן (Hebrew) in

Genesis 24:18

So she said, “Drink, my lord,” and she quickly lowered her jar onto her hand and gave him a drink.

I doubt that Rebekah was calling the servant "lord" or "master" or submitting to his right to rule. Simply showing respect.

Why are none of you Bible scholars using all of your hyper accurate translation tools to research how God told us He treated His brides Israel and Judah? Anyone think there might be some utility in that? It might possibly be relevant to see how The Perfect Husband husbanded rebellious wives. Ding! Oh, my popcorn is ready....
Are you comparing your self to G-d then? Saying you as a husband have the same authority as Him?

We are not told to Emulate G-d the father but Yeshua the Son.

"Ding, Ding"

Scripture is clear that G-d the Fathers ways are not our ways. We dont get to do the things the Father does for example vengeance. Yeshua is the example set for us to follow.
 
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How does the second part of 1 Peter 3:7 fit into rulership? Two servants are tasked with their masters buisness. One being given the authority to lead in completing their masters goal does not make that one ruler of the other.
it does if that level of authority is deligated to them.

The version you used here is different from the one that I'm using. Perhaps this is part of the difference. The different versions are leading folks to different lines of thought.

1 Peter 3:7 KJV
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
 
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If the Son of God is our head and has authority over us and rules us by His Laws, then how could He sacrifice Himself to save us BEFORE we submit to Him?

I believe there is something greater at work here than authority, rule, and submission.
 
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it does if that level of authority is deligated to them.
Here's an example of the authority delegated by G-d.

1 Peter 5:1-3

Therefore, I urge the congregation leaders among you, as a fellow-leader and witness to the Messiah's sufferings, as well as a sharer in the glory to be revealed:
2 shepherd the flock of G-d that is in your care, exercising oversight not out of constraint, but willingly, as G-d wants; and not out of a desire for dishonest gain, but with enthusiasm;
3 also not as machers domineering over those in your care, but as people who become examples to the flock.


To rule means to subjacate others beneath you to dominate them.

Mathew 20:25-27 KJV just for you @Pacman :D

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Here Yeshua is saying do not seek to rule over others like worldly princes but to be a servant of G-d, but we are to rule over our wives?

We all know that scripture is clear that men have G-ds Authority to lead their families.

Why is it so important to you to have the right to rule?
Is G-ds Authority to lead no enough?
 
Romans 13:1

Let every person submit himself to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from G-d, and those that exist are put in place by G-d.

Proverbs 16:4

Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

G-d gave us authority to lead our families accord to His rule for His glory. Not to rule our families according to our wishes for our glory.

You make a distinction between lead and rule. Does scripture make this distinction ever? Or is rule just "exercises of authority I don't like" and leadership "exercises of authority I do like". It really sounds to me like you're not objecting to the authority of the husband, but rather have a negative baggage associated with the English word rule.

You can list all the 'bad' ways you like, that's beside the point. Scripture is clear there are right and wrong ways to rule.

In the Greek, to submit oneself means to subjugate yourself to their authority. You are slotting yourself in the hierarchy under them.
 
No wires crossed. I agree its an instruction to wives. I'm not claiming otherwise. Regardless of who it is directed to Peter clearly says that Sarah called her husband lord. The point I am trying to convey is that apparently Sarah recognized her husband's lordship position. So my claim about the husband being her lord is reinforced by both Sarah and Peter.

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more,
Or close up the wall with our English dead."
- Henry V

The first observation is that whether the word is lord in the olde English or sir today or sire yesterday or whatever Hebrew word Sarah actually used, that term is a term of deference and respect that is used widely, and does not always 'prove' or even suggest that the person being deferred to is one's Lord and Master. Kevin's already pointed this out complete with a scripture example that makes this obvious, but I need to repeat it here. Consider: Are you the only man your wife refers to as sir? Do other women and men refer to you as sir in other contexts? You, sir, are reading too much into the text.

The problem is that you don't get to just make up the takeaway. (This is a recurring problem in this thread.) Here's the point Peter actually makes: Sarah's obedience and deference to her husband provide a useful example to other women of how they should obey and defer to their husbands. Here's the point you're trying to make: Sarah referred to Abraham as lord once and that proves that all husbands are lords over and are to rule over their wives. Do you see any problem here? I choose to internalize and implement Peter's application of Sarah's example, and I invite you to do the same.

Further, look at the parallelism in the actual husband/wife teaching. Here's what Peter didn't say: "Wives submit to your husbands, and obey them and respect them the way Sarah did. Husbands, take special note of the fact that Sarah referred to her husband as lord (or sire, or sir, or something in Hebrew), because this proves you are to rule your wife." Here's what Peter did say (paraphrased a bit): "Wives submit to your husbands, and obey them and respect them the way Sarah did. Husbands, know your wives well, honor them and take their weaknesses into account, because they're your co-heirs (or partners) in the grace of life, or else your prayer life is gonna suck." Unsurprisingly, this pretty much exactly tracks the express parallel teaching of Paul: "Wives submit to your husbands; husbands, love and care for your wives, because you're one with them—they are your own flesh."

Don't know what else to tell you, brother. You appear to have a deep need to have these passages support the things you think they imply. My suggestion is to simply take them at face value and apply them as written. You asked me above to call you on this, and I will: This conversation is eerily similar to many of the monogamy/polygamy conversations I've had. Why rely on inferences and assumptions instead of the plain text?

[Reminder, just in case: Nothing I've said should be taken as a criticism of how you and your wife manage your relationship (or your 'dance', as Keith would say), about which I actually know very little. We are just a couple of guys talking in general terms about how to apply scripture to our lives. That's all.]
 
Weather we are to rule them or not is the purpose of the thread. However imo there is no debate about the fact that we are to teach our wives the scriptures. Including the parts that instruct her how to behave toward us. So I will also be paying close attention to those passages as well. And I think every Christian should pay close attention to all of scripture.

This idea that men shouldn't 'pay attention' to the passages instructing women to submit is just a passive aggressive way of telling men not to confront their rebellious wives. I'm sure they'd deny that; hence the passive aggressive part.

But if my wive is being unsubmissive I have significant spiritual heart issues to deal with. As her spiritual leader making sure she understands God's expectations of her is a big part of that. This is chief among the temptations of the daughters of Eve.
 
A husband is to lead his wife. Usually that leadership will be just by example and teaching. In the cases when that fails it may mean requiring a particular action and imposing consequences if that does not happen.

However, submission is always willing. A wife is always able to rebel. Even if there are only two choices, between obedience and disobedience with negative consequences - she can still choose the second option. It's not about forcing women to obey - it's about setting the direction, setting the parameters, and desiring willing submission.

And then someone uses the word "rule" to describe this, and the conversation spirals downwards again.
It really sounds to me like you're not objecting to the authority of the husband, but rather have a negative baggage associated with the English word rule.
And that's the problem. I know this discussion began with the word "rule". But what really matters is how we ACT, not what words we use to describe it. The whole "rule" thing is becoming a frustrating distraction from a profitable conversation. Can't we just discuss how a husband is to act towards his wives, and stop getting hung up on whether to label this "ruling" or not?
And I have a separate question -- just something I'm beginning to wonder: if we arbitrarily divided the men involved in the Biblical Families web site between those who actually have multiple wives and those who want to have plural families but do not, which of those two groups would be more likely to believe that it is the proper role of the husband to rule over the wife?
This is a very good point. But again it's not about who thinks a husband should "rule" - but how each man acts towards his wives. And the successful polygamists, those who have actually held a plural family together for years, will be those men who have found the right balance and are ACTING correctly. Some may label it "ruling" in an online discussion, others may not. But the words they use may be misleading. An online persona can also be quite different to the person in the flesh - many people are more likely to state extreme views in their words on an online discussion, but in real life may be more moderate in their actual behaviour. Or someone may sound very reasonable online but in reality be a complete jerk...

Ultimately, those men who choose to be over-authoritarian, and those men who are entirely led by their wives, both fail in their marriages. Regardless of what words they use to describe it.

This really is the key:
Ladies, if you want to know what love is (why do I hear music?...), get your submission on. Men, if you want to see your wives willingly submit without force or compulsion, get your love on. It really is that simple.
 
However, submission is always willing. A wife is always able to rebel. Even if there are only two choices, between obedience and disobedience with negative consequences - she can still choose the second option. It's not about forcing women to obey - it's about setting the direction, setting the parameters, and desiring willing submission.

Setting negative consequences for disobedience is characterized by many if not most as 'forcing' and entirely unacceptable.

There is a term we use to describe an [often essential] trait many good leaders have: "force of will". It is a good thing and also a method for getting people to do something against their will. 'Forcing them' But it's not viewed as a bad thing because it is often effected through soft means such as charisma. Other ways of saying it: "willing it to happen", "willing it into existence"; depending on the situation.

None of us are putting a gun to our wives head and 'forcing' them to comply. The distinctions being drawn in this thread between 'rule' and 'leadership' are entirely arbitrary. The real problem here is people's niceness tolerance for how much bad-feels it is acceptable to cause in a woman in getting her to do or not do something she wouldn't of her own will.

And if something is classified as leadership that isn't rule; then I'd submit that is being described is actually a technique for a subordinate to convince his superior to do something. Either you have authority or you don't. And if you don't have the authority to command your wife to act against her will your marriage is a matriarchy and you are not her leader or her head, spiritually or otherwise.

How one goes about getting her to act contrary to her will is a matter of technique and entirely beside the point. There are good ways to rule and bad ways to rule.
 
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more,
Or close up the wall with our English dead."
- Henry V

The first observation is that whether the word is lord in the olde English or sir today or sire yesterday or whatever Hebrew word Sarah actually used, that term is a term of deference and respect that is used widely, and does not always 'prove' or even suggest that the person being deferred to is one's Lord and Master. Kevin's already pointed this out complete with a scripture example that makes this obvious, but I need to repeat it here. Consider: Are you the only man your wife refers to as sir? Do other women and men refer to you as sir in other contexts? You, sir, are reading too much into the text.

The problem is that you don't get to just make up the takeaway. (This is a recurring problem in this thread.) Here's the point Peter actually makes: Sarah's obedience and deference to her husband provide a useful example to other women of how they should obey and defer to their husbands. Here's the point you're trying to make: Sarah referred to Abraham as lord once and that proves that all husbands are lords over and are to rule over their wives. Do you see any problem here? I choose to internalize and implement Peter's application of Sarah's example, and I invite you to do the same.

Further, look at the parallelism in the actual husband/wife teaching. Here's what Peter didn't say: "Wives submit to your husbands, and obey them and respect them the way Sarah did. Husbands, take special note of the fact that Sarah referred to her husband as lord (or sire, or sir, or something in Hebrew), because this proves you are to rule your wife." Here's what Peter did say (paraphrased a bit): "Wives submit to your husbands, and obey them and respect them the way Sarah did. Husbands, know your wives well, honor them and take their weaknesses into account, because they're your co-heirs (or partners) in the grace of life, or else your prayer life is gonna suck." Unsurprisingly, this pretty much exactly tracks the express parallel teaching of Paul: "Wives submit to your husbands; husbands, love and care for your wives, because you're one with them—they are your own flesh."

Don't know what else to tell you, brother. You appear to have a deep need to have these passages support the things you think they imply. My suggestion is to simply take them at face value and apply them as written. You asked me above to call you on this, and I will: This conversation is eerily similar to many of the monogamy/polygamy conversations I've had. Why rely on inferences and assumptions instead of the plain text?

[Reminder, just in case: Nothing I've said should be taken as a criticism of how you and your wife manage your relationship (or your 'dance', as Keith would say), about which I actually know very little. We are just a couple of guys talking in general terms about how to apply scripture to our lives. That's all.]

I don't disagree with you about what the passage is saying. You contend that the term lord is simply a general term of respect and not a recognition of lordship. I understand your point and I will move on from that verse. Not necessarily agreeing with you. I think both 'sides' of this discussion are applying passages to fit their preconceived ideas. Some acurate and some incorrectly...
 
Here's an example of the authority delegated by G-d.

1 Peter 5:1-3

Therefore, I urge the congregation leaders among you, as a fellow-leader and witness to the Messiah's sufferings, as well as a sharer in the glory to be revealed:
2 shepherd the flock of G-d that is in your care, exercising oversight not out of constraint, but willingly, as G-d wants; and not out of a desire for dishonest gain, but with enthusiasm;
3 also not as machers domineering over those in your care, but as people who become examples to the flock.


To rule means to subjacate others beneath you to dominate them.

Mathew 20:25-27 KJV just for you @Pacman :D

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Here Yeshua is saying do not seek to rule over others like worldly princes but to be a servant of G-d, but we are to rule over our wives?

You have given several passages with examples of negatives with regard to authority and rule. And then used them to contend that because the rule being used was negative or spoken about negatively we should not use rule when dealing with our wives. But what about the multiple positive examples with regard to ruling and even using the word rule in scripture talking about personal relationships and government and church structure. Your contention seems to be that all application of the term rule is negative therfore we should not rule our wives. I disagree.

Gen 24:2
Gen 41:43
Gen 43:16
Gen 45:8
Exodus 18:21
Exodus 24:31
Prov 17:2
Isaiah 32:1
Matthew 24:45-47
Matthew 25:21,23
Luke 12:42,44
Romans 12:8
Romans 13:3
1 Timothy 3:4,5
1 Timothy 5:17
Hebrews 13:7,24

Rule is not always negative in scripture.

Rule just as any form of power is an amplifier of character. It can be bad when bad men have it. But it can be good when good men have it.
 
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