The lost years of Jesus

[Verifyveritas76]

I really don’t know. I just watched some of his stuff on YouTube when I was studying the BI stuff.

 

[IshChayil]

Familiar with Brown
Read volume 1 and 2 of the "Answering" books
Seen several debates with Dr. Brown
Been a while since I studied it out, but could still get along somewhat okay.

My main question was if the "what happened to Jesus?" question was a common anti-missionary misdirection. If it is, what would be a good answer?

This is the first I've encountered the "what happened to Jesus?" Seems quite weak.
I'd probably counter with "what happened to Moses?" One moment he's a baby in the river, next thing he's killing someone, next thing he's old in Midian.
Or "what happened to Elijah?" I'd like to know about his childhood. Or what about "What happened to Enoch?" especially since we have lots of extra-biblical stuff attributed to his name.
You see where this is going... what happened to every biblical character ever?

I'm impressed you already studied brown's answering series. I haven't haha
I have listened to his abbreviated form on youtube. As far as convincing Jews goes, I've seen stats that indicate that those born Gentile are much more successful with this.
I think this is due to the whole "traitor factor" those of us born in the tribe experience when trying to share.

You may want to mention some of the things Brown shares about talmudic insights into Messiah; particularly interesting is tractate Yoma (the day in Aramaic, meaning Yom Kippur).
It records that the last 40 years of the temple's existence (prior to it's destruction by Rome), the small miracles stopped happening which were recorded as happening usually during Yom Kippur. This can be a nice segway because you are using Jewish sources to show that something changed around 30 AD since temple destroyed 40 years later (70 AD). Let me know if you want a scan from talmud for this, I can provide...

Also the whole "2 Messiahs" in talmudic thought can be very useful. The typical wall you will experience in Jewish evangelism is "If Jesus is Messiah why is there still war on earth?"
Most are not aware that the sages of old believed there would be 2 Messiahs: Messiah son of Joseph, and Messiah son of David.
Son of Joseph was fullfiler of prophecies relating to suffering, etc. Son of David was associated to reigning from Jerusalem and ushering in Peace.
It's off course a small step to then say "hey the rabbis were almost right, there are 2 roles for Messiah, but it's one guy who comes twice. Next time he comes He will fulfill role of Messiah son of David."
It's nice to come armed with the Rabbinical references but this assumes a continuing dialogue with the guy.

The key point, is how are we forgiven today for sins without blood sacrifice?
This one can get a bit tricky but most Jews never think about this. WHo says "prayer" is a substitute for blood?
This may not go the way you think it will though depending on how well versed in gemara the guy is. (priestly robes made atonement for certain sins, etc. not just blood according to gemara thought and blood was only for "chetah"=unintentional sins....
If the guy is reasonable you can still pound home these things.

 

[IshChayil]

@IshChayil any tips in evangelizing?
Any input? Is this some sort of common out Jews use to discredit Messiah?

Oh the main argument against Messiah is: 1) If he's Messiah why do his followers eat pork, break sabbath, etc?
i.e. the "fruit" is questionable to Jews. and 2) I mentioned in other response, why isn't their world peace now?

 

[IshChayil]

I really don’t know. I just watched some of his stuff on YouTube when I was studying the BI stuff.

OK I researched, he's the same guy.
Small world. I didn't know he was a British Israelite; I only know that when I met him he couldn't even read Hebrew letters which shocked me considering he's a rising star of sorts among Hebrew roots. This isn't an argument against his position; just amazed how connections happen. I've met him a few times and I tried to read one of his books on Blood Moons when a pastor hosting him asked me to review it. It was unintelligible, I couldn't get through it.
He's a very friendly guy and he took it really well when he asked me if I liked his sermon and I said "I disagree with most of what you taught"; he took it in stride and we had a pleasant conversation. That's maturity in my opinion.
It's amazing to me though that in 3 sermons his British Israelite position never came out because I definitely would have challenged him on that.
Maybe because he's preaching to Filipinos?

My biggest gripe is he's got Filipino farmers keeping the Shmittah year (7th year sabbatical where you can't benefit from your crops) and this command seems clearly to me for the land of Israel only; it's quite an extra burden for the locals.
***disclaimer - this is IshChayil bloviating... the point of the message is "wow I met this guy a few times and had no idea of his true theology, thanks for that!" ***

 

[Mojo]

At this point it was just surprising to learn he was Jewish! He has a thick accent, but I attributed it to him being from Iran. It was small talk about whether he was Persian, Persian or an ethnic group within (I used to work for an Iranian years ago and I know they have their own ethnic groups too). At first he said Persian, Persian, but modified it to Jewish Persian.

When he saw I was familiar with Cyrus, the captivity, etc he asked "how do you know about such things?"

It lead to Ethiopian Jews, Christopher Columbus, the Inquisition, forced conversions.........

Then a random..."I want to know what happened to Jesus when he disappeared. I heard he lived in a religious monastery in Sinai and studied there..."

Appointment over.

There's a long story behind how I got into Brown's stuff. Maybe a p.m. conversation later.
I am familiar with ben David and ben Yosef.

 

[FollowingHim]

"I want to know what happened to Jesus when he disappeared."

I think your friend is jumping to conclusions. Personally, I think it is most likely that nothing particularly interesting happened in these years, which is the reason none of the gospel writers, not even the alternative extracanonical gospel writers, bothered to mention it. There is absolutely no reason to think "Jesus disappeared for 18 years". To put it logically, the 'null hypothesis' is that nothing interesting occurred. Anyone proposing anything else needs to come up with very clear evidence to not only demonstrate their view but also explain why none of the gospel writers or others in the early church saw fit to make any mention of something so interesting.

I also think there is an ulterior motive behind many such theories. This 18 year period is an opportunity to build a story to give a predetermined view legitimacy. British Israelism wants some connection between Jesus and England for obvious reasons. Those who doubt His divinity and want to propose that He made it up want a connection to other religious influences, India being obvious. So we have to be very careful not to accept things too hastily.

Now He may have done something interesting then, I'm open to the possibility. Time in a desert monastery at least is very plausible. But if it was important, I would have expected Luke or someone to at least drop a hint.

 

[rockfox]

I also think there is an ulterior motive behind many such theories.

Now that you mention it I have seen this. There are those wish to say the early church corrupted His teachings and seek to re-imagine the Gospel in concordance with other religions, which they claim Jesus originally studied under during such times. This narrative gives them permission to cherry pick statement from scripture as justification that He really believed this other religion.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Samuel is right. This isn't important and no sand castles should be built on it. It's fun though. Brain candy if you will.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not saying it's important to me. I don't think the answer to where Jesus was makes any difference either.

It obviously was significant to this doctor to even bring it up, though. I don't know his endgame because the appointment ended and he had other patients to attend to. I just want some sound input from others who may have had to deal with this line of thought. I've heard lots of objections, or even curiosities before, but this one was new.

 

[Shibboleth]

Here's my definitive answer:

Luke 2:52. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.