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The Polygamy Litmus Test

rockfox

rockfox

Seasoned Member
Real Person*
Male
I had the thought yesterday that the issue of polygamy is like a litmus test, or a winnowing fork, or a trial by fire. This issue will really test your mettle.

What follows may well come off wrong, I'm not quite sure how to convey what I'm thinking here. To be clear I don't mean this in self-righteous who is right and wrong or good for fellowship sort of way. This isn't, 'you're wrong in all these ways because you don't believe polygamy is ok'. That's not my heart here. It's more a looking back and inward thing. I am seeing how polygamy is something God uses to test us, how the trials involved have been to our benefit, to see if we really believe what we say we believe...

Do you really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men?
Do you care more about truth or of the approval of men?
Do you care more about your livelihood than teaching the truth?
Are you teaching the whole council of God?
Is your marriage really on strong foundation? Could it survive the introduction of polygamy?
Are you really loving your wife like Christ loves the church?
Am I equipped and ready to lead, teach, and support my wife?
Believe in polygamy? Then would you embrace your son/daughter pursuing it?
Do you really believe the Old Testament is there to teach us what is sin?
Do you really believe that Christ didn't come to abolish the law?
Do you really follow the traditions of the apostles or just syncretic moralities gathered along the way?
Do you really oppose feminism, or just the distasteful parts?
Did you mean it when you said for better or worse till death do us part?
Are you here to help your man or are you in it for what he does for you?
Are you a [wo]man of your word?
Does your church have unspoken conditions for fellowship?
Is your fellowship in Christ or in human ideas?
Do you really love one another?
Do you understand the purpose of men? Of women?
Do you follow the whole Bible, or just the parts that conform to the world?
Are you studied in the meat of the word, not just the milk, or are there verses of scripture and concepts completely left out of your religious education?
Are your motives selfish or selfless?
Are you actually in submission to your husband?
Did you base your marriage on lust or on authority from God?
Whom do you fear more: God or man?
Are you pursuing a fairy tale or the will of God in your life?
Are you willing to go where the Spirit leads?
Is your faith placed in tradition, or in the word of God?
Are you willing to follow Him?
Are you living out Christ's commission to you?

Someone bringing up polygamy to you, or in your church, or bringing it to your wife will reveal answers to many these questions and more. Looking back, I can see how important this issue was in testing my faith as it revealed the answers to these questions.

Any other questions that PM will winnow out the answers to?

I am appreciating how much the embrace of polygamy means for our faith. Despite our sometimes differences, I have been repeatedly impressed how willing the men and women here are to follow God as opposed to the world's ideas and ways; not just on polygamy, but on a wide array other Biblical issues.

We may not always agree, but there is a common mindset here that is commendable. It really speaks to your faith and the winnowing nature of this issue.
 
Very nice. I've had similar thoughts at times, but none so well articulated. The mere mention of polygyny lights a refiner's fire that very few can stand more than five minutes....

As an aside, there are a few other similar refiner's fires in our day. Not all are ready for each, but poly isn't the only one. Just a major one.

rockfox said:
Do you really follow the traditions of the apostles or just syncretic moralities gathered along the way?
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I would reword this question because there are 'traditions' ascribed to the apostles that are nowhere found in Scripture. And, previously you cast appropriate negative light on 'traditions' in general.

As a point, nothing wrong with traditions, as long as they do not conflict with and never govern Scripture.

Thanks, bro. Great topic.
 
Ancient Paths said:
As an aside, there are a few other similar refiner's fires in our day.
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I also can think of a few, but they would be rather thread-distracting.

Ancient Paths said:
I would reword this question because there are 'traditions' ascribed to the apostles that are nowhere found in Scripture. And, previously you cast appropriate negative light on 'traditions' in general.
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I do not disagree. That passage was more thinking from a Catholic/Orthodox perspective; an allusion to the contradiction between their present position (which claims to be the faithful tradition passed down) and what we can clearly see in the early church church fathers writings which explicitly refuse to condemn polygamy.

Their idea on tradition isn't wholly without foundation (1 Cor 11:1-2, 2 Thes: 3:6); I can meet them on their terms while pointing out their traditions contradict the scripture and they are constantly changing. Not only does their tradition not match that of the early church fathers on polygamy, it doesn't even match that of their church a mere 2 generations ago (such as on headcoverings).

How would I word that as a Protestant? Well, that's really what the first question was: "Do you really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men?". But I could also put it this way: "Are my morals based on what the Bible says, or lost pagan traditions?

Actually, that might work to make the OP feel less aggressive/self-righteous: reword them to speak inward not outward: "Do I really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men?" vs. "Do you really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men?". I didn't like the tone of the OP, hence the intro/disclaimer. Better would have been: "As we struggle with the issue of polygamy it forces us to face some questions: Do I really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men? ..."
 
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rockfox said:
How would I word that as a Protestant? Well, that's really what the first question was: "Do you really follow the Bible or just the traditions of men?"
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Nope, I was wrong. That's what the Protestant wants to think the equivalent is. But, to the Catholic anyway, it is more of a both and situation. The literal Protestant equivalent would be, "Do I believe and practice as the first century church did or am I following the errant teachings of later Greek and pagan converts?" Some traditions might substitute, "Apostolic church" for "first century church".

Phillip said:
Thanks for the post, those questions will be running they my head all day.
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You're welcome. I hope it is edifying to you as you meditate on the scriptures today.
 
There was a poly site based in Europe many years ago (not sure if it's still up, but I think not) that made the case that poly is THE sifter of the modern age. I wasn't prepared to go that far 15-20 years ago, but these days it seems more and more that the real fight that matters in the practical world is over gender/mating issues. I'm reminded of a quote that's commonly attributed to Luther, though now is considered to be of uncertain origin. In any case, to me it sounds like something he might have said (crusty old b@st@rd...):

"It is the truth which is assailed in any age which tests our fidelity. It is to confess we are called, not merely to profess. If I profess, with the loudest voice and the clearest exposition, every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christianity. Where the battle rages the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace to him if he flinches at that one point."​

Not saying my truth can beat up your truth. Just saying that if the enemy is attacking your left flank, you defend on your left flank. If your enemy is attaching your center, you defend at the center. We are being attacked and beaten on the fundamental issues of male/female relationships and the rearing of future generations, so that's where we have to fight.

(NB - In this metaphor many government church leaders and 'Christian' book store authors are traitors, and most are 'useful idiots'. Just sayin.)
 
Love the post @rockfox

rockfox said:
Do you really believe the Old Testament is there to teach us what is sin?
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This is an incredible question! Especially when paired with Romans 7:7. What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.†. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:

The takeaway for me with this question is that polygamy cannot be sin even in the New Testament as it is regulated in the law. If Paul’s answer to the question, Is the law sin? Is a resounding God forbid, then how could poly be sin?
 
Great adjustment in wording @rockfox . Love the additional thoughts, @andrew and @Cap . Poly truly is a defining issue and simple mental assent is not enough. Only willingness to answer the call is enough.
 
andrew said:
made the case that poly is THE sifter of the modern age. I wasn't prepared to go that far 15-20 years ago, but these days it seems more and more that the real fight that matters in the practical world is over gender/mating issues.
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I do believe the gender/mating issue is THE issue of our time. Everything points to that. I'm not sure I'd yet say that polygamy is THE issue. But I would say it cuts to the root in that matter.

You can support polygamy and be on the wrong side of that battle, but it is unlikely. For most people polygamy creates a reckoning. It's like throwing down the gauntlet on the whole issue; you quickly find out which side someone is really on.
 
eye4them said:
This maybe?
http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM093-Sifter.html
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Great passages from there:

To become a polygamist as a man you must endure the 'German nightmare', as I call it - a war on two fronts. Worse than that, to enter this practice as a man you always begin with a dual war that is both at home and outside it. The chances of finding a wife, to whom you made monogamy-only marriage vows on the basis of false tradition, who will yield obediently to Yahweh's laws without either divorce or (if you are lucky) a domestic World War, are slim. At the same time, not only are you likely to face a war at home but a war from your children, relatives, employers, friends and acquaintances especially in the Christian/Messianic community. Yes, truly, our worst enemies are often those from our own 'house', whether in our domestic residence or within those who ought to be the Family of Yahweh to us. It means persecution, ostracisation, villification, divorce, poverty, and I dare say in some circumstances, death. Can you think of anything worse for a man to become the enemy not only of his sweetheart, children and family, but his church (assembly) and of the whole world? What could be a worse torture for him? It is one thing to be hated by the world for your faith in Christ, but to be hated by the Church or Messianic Synagogue as well, is to come pretty close to the ultimate human Calvary-event. For on that cross is it not true that Christ had nowhere to reteat from His agony - not in his flesh, thoughts, feelings, or anything - His whole soul was under exquisite torture because of our sins.

So let no-one ever accuse those God-fearing men who enter this principle for godly reasons as being anything but saintly, for if they are truly Christ's marked children, that is what they are. But if their desire for this principle is unholy, then the accuations of the anti-polygamists may well indeed apply. Every man of Yahweh who enters this holy principle by the calling of Yahweh will be VIOLENTLY SHAKEN and SORELY TESTED and his struggle will be no less than those ladies wrestling with their carnal natures in breaking out of the monogamy-only mindframe and into the true freedom of Christ. Christian/Messianic polygamy makes true men and women, sifting out the nominal ones. It tests those who claim to be obedient servants of the Most High, and spits out the nominal Christians/Messianics who claim a short-cut to salvation through cheap grace.
...
Christian/Messianic polygamy might, therefore, be said to be a means that Yahweh is using in these last days to get Christians out of the Circus and into the Assembly of Israel. The Circus is the world, of which the 'whore church' is a part, that counterfeiter of counterfeits, and we who are Christian/Messianic Patriarchs ought to have no part of it. Sooner of later the 'churches' will be (and already are) violently persecuting Christian/Messianic polygamists so if you don't flee from them they will throw you out cut and bleeding anyway
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One Texan lady I was talking to last night (2001) told me that almost everything she had been taught in her church was distorted in one way or another.
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Yahweh does not want to create a 'Polygamy Church' along with a 'Baptist', 'Pentecostal', 'Methodist' or any other kind of 'Church' - He has come to do away with the Church system altogether! For those of you contemplating setting up 'Poly Churches' I have only the direst of warnings for you for not only will you excite the ire of the mono-only Churches but in the end and final reckoning be side-stepped by Yahweh Himself in the end-time work that He is about.
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rockfox said:
I do believe the gender/mating issue is THE issue of our time. Everything points to that. I'm not sure I'd yet say that polygamy is THE issue. But I would say it cuts to the root in that matter.

You can support polygamy and be on the wrong side of that battle, but it is unlikely. For most people polygamy creates a reckoning. It's like throwing down the gauntlet on the whole issue; you quickly find out which side someone is really on.
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Correct.

Polygamy, more specifically as you know, polygyny isn't the issue. Rather it is the perfect antidote to the world/church's messed up views of gender and mating roles. Polygyny boldly declares, 'I stand with the laws of God, I reject the opinions and false constructs of man.'

The enemy knows this which is why that toothless liar works so hard against it.
 
Cap said:
Anyone have a chance to go through this website? Interesting stuff, I think. Wondering what others thought, if they did.
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Found that site many years ago, used to chat with some of Stan's wives. Yes, it's an interesting site with a lot of material.

Believers in the nephilim will find the book in the lds section written by a former lds member interesting.
Women might like reading the story "bouquet of roses" if that is there.

Some warnings were hilarious, and they do not at all approve of the poly meat market out there in the "dating sites."
Lots of "food" for thought. Rarely do we agree with every doctrine on a site......I mean to say that it seems most are wrong about something....but maybe that's just because we are wrong about some things too. ;)
 
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Cap said:
Anyone have a chance to go through this website? Interesting stuff, I think. Wondering what others thought, if they did.
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I just finished about 1/2 of the tour topics. That's a lot of reading and small font. Perhaps at some point I'll get back to the rest of it.
 
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